Not By Works

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PHart

Guest
Hebrews 10 does not negate 1 John 2 either

Get over it, They Left because they were NEVER OF US.

You have no arguments, give it up/
You have no substance. Give it up. Unsupported rhetoric doesn't prove anything. I showed you that Hebrews 10 is talking about sanctified believers. You have not been able to refute that. I used the passage itself to prove my point. You? What do you have? Your interpretation of 1 John 2:19 NULLIFIES Hebrews 10. My interpretation of Hebrews 10 does NOT nullify 1 John 2. Put 'em side by side. I'll show you. I'll do that with any of your suppossed OSAS passages. You will see that in your supposed OSAS passages you are ignoring the fact that the promise of eternal life is conditioned on continued believing.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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You believe we maintain salvation by our ability to continue to believe. You have no faiht God can keep his people from falling from faith or you would not preach such things. So End of story.
His view totally sweeps under the table that JESUS begins, finishes and completes the work of faith he begins in ALL.....to say what he believes absolutely calls JESUS a liar, inept and a failure to do the bolded....He would have us believe that JESUS begins a work of faith in someone and then cannot finish it or complete it and a man HIMSELF must finish it and do that which Christ promises to do....absolute BLASPHEMY to believe this and push this...it is degrading to the SON of GOD!
 
Mar 11, 2016
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abigail.pro
Listening to a sermon just now and I never understood this before:

For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. Romans 5:17

...

those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

...

ABUNDANCE OF GRACE and the GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS will REIGN IN LIFE through the One JESUS CHRIST.

How liberating that my incapabilities & weaknesses don't limit me from enjoying this life.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Listen to yourself: You said, "...LOVE from GOD in our heart, IT WILL PRODUCE IN OUR NEW BORN AGAIN SPIRIT a strong desire to show LOVE for GOD by obeying HIM." How is that not having to produce works? You have to have that result in your life, or you're not saved. How can you not see that is exactly what you folks are saying? But when we say it all of a sudden it means 'trying to earn your own salvation'.

You have never been married have you?
 
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PHart

Guest
Just in case

James said, if we break the least of the commands (1 sin) we are guilty of the whole law

Moses and Paul both said, cursed is everyone who does not confirm AND OBEY EVER WORD.
Law keepers believe in the forgiveness of God. At any point they fail they have Christ's blood to cover them JUST AS YOU DO WHEN YOU DO NOT KEEP ALL OF GOD'S COMMANDS.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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As long as you ignore vs. 24 (and the fact that 'never' is not even in the verse) I guess that's what you're going to erroneously believe. Hebrews 10 is so clear about the danger of the believer going back to unbelief that it doesn't matter anyway.
Hebrews 10 has a particular context and it is not about losing salvation.......as a matter of fact the whole book is aimed at those who wish to place themselves back under an inferior way.........context will set your free!
 
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PHart

Guest
His view totally sweeps under the table that JESUS begins, finishes and completes the work of faith he begins in ALL.....to say what he believes absolutely calls JESUS a liar, inept and a failure to do the bolded....He would have us believe that JESUS begins a work of faith in someone and then cannot finish it or complete it and a man HIMSELF must finish it and do that which Christ promises to do....absolute BLASPHEMY to believe this and push this...it is degrading to the SON of GOD!
Just more unsupported rhetoric. Prove that Jesus' promises are not conditioned on continued believing. You keep negating what passages like Hebrews 10 teaches, but what I defend does not nullify your team's supposed OSAS passages. That's how we know who's right here.
 
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PHart

Guest
Hebrews 10 has a particular context and it is not about losing salvation.......as a matter of fact the whole book is aimed at those who wish to place themselves back under an inferior way.........context will set your free!
Actually posting the passage will prove you wrong, lol. Bring it.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Grace does not follow the ex-believer back into his unbelief. You can believe that believers can never not believe, or that they are still saved even if they do, but Hebrews 10 is very clear what the fate of the ex-believer is.

You have to continue to believe to continue to be protected by the sacrifice of Christ for the Day of Salvation.
You can give up this ex-believing crap...there is no such thing....those that go out from us were NEVER OF US>>they NEVER HAD FAITH to begin with and ALL who have exercised GENUINE saving faith have a faith that JESUS began, will finish and complete....

Quit degrading the work of Christ by making him out to be this inept liar that does not finish what he started.....
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Just more unsupported rhetoric. Prove that Jesus' promises are not conditioned on continued believing. You keep negating what passages like Hebrews 10 teaches, but what I defend does not nullify your team's supposed OSAS passages. That's how we know who's right here.
The very statement FINISH AND COMPLETE proves your stance is ignorant!
 
Jun 1, 2016
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Grace does not follow the ex-believer back into his unbelief. You can believe that believers can never not believe, or that they are still saved even if they do, but Hebrews 10 is very clear what the fate of the ex-believer is.

You have to continue to believe to continue to be protected by the sacrifice of Christ for the Day of Salvation.

"You have to continue to believe to continue to be protected by the sacrifice of Christ for the Day of Salvation."


what would you say it means in more detail to " continue believing" ? what is it we need to continue to Believe?
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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This is why I no longer listen to Phart's counterfeit gospel. "Today is the day of Salvation", Phart's gospel is wrong with every word he speaks. He continually twists the scriptures to fit his fake gospel day after day. Counterfeit gospel = Counterfeit Christ

"For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation." 2Cor6:2

Absolute nonsense

Originally Posted by PHart

"You have to continue to believe to continue to be protected by the sacrifice of Christ for
the Day of Salvation."

Fake gospel = fake christ
 
Last edited:
Dec 12, 2013
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This is why I no longer listen to Phart's counterfeit gospel. "Today is the day of Salvation", Phart's gospel is wrong with every word he speaks. He continually twists the scriptures to fit his fake gospel day after day. Counterfeit gospel = Counterfeit Christ

"For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation." 2Cor6:2

Absolute nonsense

Originally Posted by PHart

"You have to continue to believe to continue to be protected by the sacrifice of Christ for
the Day of Salvation."

Fake gospel = fake christ
Absolutely agree......100% as false as they come!
 
Jun 1, 2016
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The very statement FINISH AND COMPLETE proves your stance is ignorant!
what scriptures are they that say that all the conditions Jesus taught man to do are already fulfilled?

its all based on the conditions He Himself made when He gave the Promises along side the instructions. no different from He has done it always. God explains His Love and Mercy, His desire that man returns to Him with all thier Heart, His willingness and desire to forgive and restore them to glory and relationship with Him, With God Himself"

God has desired this in His word repeatedly from the beginning. and what the Gospel is, is Gods Last reach out to mankind He reached as far as He Will when Jesus suffered and Died to become sufficient to call a believer to repentance through that display, Love should compel us, to Give Our Lives to the One Who gave His for us. this would and always Has and will include learning and keeping His ways from Israel, to Jesus, to Peter, to paul. there are no doctrines that actually teach a believer to Believe thier part is already accomplished. They are supposed to Believe Jesus did His part, and offers New Life, His spirit of comfort and teaching, wisdom and strength...so that we can Now Live By that spirit and do Our Part.....


rather than Jesus already did My Part so I dont have to do anything......it should Be Jesus actually did His part and it is true and it is enough to give Me the will and strength to follow Him as Lord. and No matter How we Like to say it if we Have a Lord...His Word is Our Law. if we Have a King....His decrees are the Law of the Kingdom.

Jesus didnt repent for us so we need not repent or confess, He doesnt Obey for us, so we need not , He didnt Help the Poor so we dont Have to, He didnt suffer so we can go on guilt free Living in sin pretending well Never face Judgement. He actually taught us to do those things, explicitly saying " do not only Hear my words my sayings, you need to put them into practice in your Life" thats a consistant thing He said it several Times. he made the special Point you have to do this stuff or it wont work for you. it really doesnt actually say anywhere that Jesus finished Our part , it says He forgave us, and offers the Holy spirit to all who will believe and Obey Him because they Believe. part of what saves People is that they do the things He says to do....that is the Ultimate display of real belief, if He says do this and you will be blessed.....to do it says I believe.


there is alot for us to do, and alot of capability we have been Given in the Promise of the Holy spirit. it is the Power to change Hearts at the core. until Jesus came and taught about the Holy Ghost, No One really ever understood anythng about the Holy ghost and until Jesus died as an atonement, man was not worthy to receive the spirit...it Only comes through Jesus and the Gospel He spoke forth. the Promise He gave of the spirit, is conditioned with abiding his word, Gods Promises are always based on His goodness, but they are always conditional from eden to revelation. the condition , even more than that, Has never changed


think of it How hard is it for man to simply do the right thing daily in Life? we all would say " No ones perfect except Jesus" and thats true, but since the beginning God has said " Just Hear my Word, and Believe it and you will Live." true Belief creates action. if I believe i need to obey God, i will begin to Obey God. if I believe Jesus somehow obeyed so that i dont have to, i will never make the effort to learn and Obey God...because I sinply dont believe i am supposed to obey, or I am commanded to Obey, Or God is actually teaching the Believer through His word....
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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what scriptures are they that say that all the conditions Jesus taught man to do are already fulfilled?

its all based on the conditions He Himself made when He gave the Promises along side the instructions. no different from He has done it always. God explains His Love and Mercy, His desire that man returns to Him with all thier Heart, His willingness and desire to forgive and restore them to glory and relationship with Him, With God Himself"

God has desired this in His word repeatedly from the beginning. and what the Gospel is, is Gods Last reach out to mankind He reached as far as He Will when Jesus suffered and Died to become sufficient to call a believer to repentance through that display, Love should compel us, to Give Our Lives to the One Who gave His for us. this would and always Has and will include learning and keeping His ways from Israel, to Jesus, to Peter, to paul. there are no doctrines that actually teach a believer to Believe thier part is already accomplished. They are supposed to Believe Jesus did His part, and offers New Life, His spirit of comfort and teaching, wisdom and strength...so that we can Now Live By that spirit and do Our Part.....


rather than Jesus already did My Part so I dont have to do anything......it should Be Jesus actually did His part and it is true and it is enough to give Me the will and strength to follow Him as Lord. and No matter How we Like to say it if we Have a Lord...His Word is Our Law. if we Have a King....His decrees are the Law of the Kingdom.

Jesus didnt repent for us so we need not repent or confess, He doesnt Obey for us, so we need not , He didnt Help the Poor so we dont Have to, He didnt suffer so we can go on guilt free Living in sin pretending well Never face Judgement. He actually taught us to do those things, explicitly saying " do not only Hear my words my sayings, you need to put them into practice in your Life" thats a consistant thing He said it several Times. he made the special Point you have to do this stuff or it wont work for you. it really doesnt actually say anywhere that Jesus finished Our part , it says He forgave us, and offers the Holy spirit to all who will believe and Obey Him because they Believe. part of what saves People is that they do the things He says to do....that is the Ultimate display of real belief, if He says do this and you will be blessed.....to do it says I believe.


there is alot for us to do, and alot of capability we have been Given in the Promise of the Holy spirit. it is the Power to change Hearts at the core. until Jesus came and taught about the Holy Ghost, No One really ever understood anythng about the Holy ghost and until Jesus died as an atonement, man was not worthy to receive the spirit...it Only comes through Jesus and the Gospel He spoke forth. the Promise He gave of the spirit, is conditioned with abiding his word, Gods Promises are always based on His goodness, but they are always conditional from eden to revelation. the condition , even more than that, Has never changed


think of it How hard is it for man to simply do the right thing daily in Life? we all would say " No ones perfect except Jesus" and thats true, but since the beginning God has said " Just Hear my Word, and Believe it and you will Live." true Belief creates action. if I believe i need to obey God, i will begin to Obey God. if I believe Jesus somehow obeyed so that i dont have to, i will never make the effort to learn and Obey God...because I sinply dont believe i am supposed to obey, or I am commanded to Obey, Or God is actually teaching the Believer through His word....
Take it up with JESUS...

HE starts the work of faith
He finishes the work of faith
He completes the work of faith


To say one can lose salvation and must KEEP it himself absolutely denies the three listed.......and the following...

a. KEPT by the power of GOD through faith (see above three bolded)
b. Saved to the uttermost
c. In the Father's hand
d. In Christ's hand
e. Sealed by the HOLY SPIRIT UNTO the day of redemption
f. NEVER leave us or FORSAKE US
g. EVER lives to mediate
h. Grace out bounds our SIN
I. Leaves the 99 to find the one that wanders off
j. Given eternal life, NOT TEMPORAL
k. Is justified
l. Imputed righteousness of Christ
m. Sanctified positionally in Christ
n. Will LOSE NOTHING but raise it up the last day (SEE 3 bolded above)

etc.....

ANY MAN that walks away was NEVER saved to begin with....JOHN states clearly they WERE NEVER OF US....there is NO SUCH thing as ONE who BELIEVES biblically (SEE 3 BOLDED above) and then walks away and loses faith and loses salvation.........the very premise is false, does not jive with scripture and is contrary to the bible!
 
Sep 14, 2017
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The bolded in the following....

Romans 8:1, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

The bolded below contradicts the bolded above.....

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God
Interesting verses you used here. John 3:36 and John 3:18.
Both verses show us the "does" and the "does nots" of believing in Christ, with one exception: V36 shows "
He who believes in the Son" and "he who does not obey the Son", interchanging 'believe' and 'obey' as if they are the same thing.
The greek for 'does not obey' means to disobey. Yet the commentators agree that 'does not obey' also means 'not believe'.
Disobedience is not believing, and not believing is disobedience.
That also means obedience is believing and believing is obedience. When christians truly believe in Jesus, it IS obedience to God, for it is the will of God to believe in Jesus, and doing God's will IS obedience to Him.
Check out your favorite commentaries and see for yourself.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Interesting verses you used here. John 3:36 and John 3:18.
Both verses show us the "does" and the "does nots" of believing in Christ, with one exception: V36 shows "
He who believes in the Son" and "he who does not obey the Son", interchanging 'believe' and 'obey' as if they are the same thing.
The greek for 'does not obey' means to disobey. Yet the commentators agree that 'does not obey' also means 'not believe'.
Disobedience is not believing, and not believing is disobedience.
That also means obedience is believing and believing is obedience. When christians truly believe in Jesus, it IS obedience to God, for it is the will of God to believe in Jesus, and doing God's will IS obedience to Him.
Check out your favorite commentaries and see for yourself.
The will and work of the Heavenly Father---->BELIEVE on HIM whom he has sent!

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe!
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Admit what? That believing is me trying to earn my own salvation? Not without a scripture that says that I won't!

You don't have a scripture to prove your dogmatic assertion......end of story!

Galatians 2:16-21 (ASV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But if, while we sought to be justified in Christ, we ourselves also were found sinners, is Christ a minister of sin? God forbid.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For if I build up again those things which I destroyed, I prove myself a transgressor.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For I through the law died unto the law, that I might live unto God.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] I do not make void the grace of God: for if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nought.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Shall we end this exercise in futility:

[video=youtube;z-a-XRjHLYQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-a-XRjHLYQ[/video]
 
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PHart

Guest
This is why I no longer listen to Phart's counterfeit gospel. "Today is the day of Salvation", Phart's gospel is wrong with every word he speaks. He continually twists the scriptures to fit his fake gospel day after day. Counterfeit gospel = Counterfeit Christ

"For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation." 2Cor6:2

Absolute nonsense

Originally Posted by PHart

"You have to continue to believe to continue to be protected by the sacrifice of Christ for
the Day of Salvation."

Fake gospel = fake christ
Everyone who presently believes is presently saved. That is not in debate. Right now our salvation consists of a down payment of a measure of the Holy Spirit. We have yet to obtain all that salvation is. That doesn't happen until the last day:

"5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
"13Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 1:5,13 NASB)

"24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it." (Romans 8:24-25 NASB)

"5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness." (Galatians 5:5 NASB)

"11And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises." (Hebrews 6:11-12 NASB)


What we wait for in regard to salvation is conditioned on our continued believing. We have to endure in our believing to the very end to inherit what the down payment of the Holy Spirit assures us of what is yet to come. You must continue believing to continue to have the Holy Spirit, who is the down payment and promissory note of the salvation yet to come.