The end of the world is coming. What should we be looking for?
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I'm not really interested in debating this stuff,
so I'll just make one quick point and then get out, lol.
There IS symbolism in the Bible.
There is also literal language in the Bible.
The most normal hermeneutic approach is to start with the verse, and the immediate context, to see if the immediate context is either literal or figurative.. and we then let the immediate context inform our view of the words within that context.
This is pretty much the same way we conduct normal everyday speech, which is full of both literal and figurative language, but which is also very simple to understand.
That said, I have no interest in debating the end of the world today.
You guys have a good time.
: )
The Bible is literature: It is divinely-inspired and inerrant literature, but it is literature all the same. This means that we must read it as literature. Some parts are meant to be literally understood, and they are written accordingly – as history, or theological propositions, or whatever. But one would not expect to read the Psalms or the Song of Solomon by the same literary standards used for the Book of Romans. It would be like reading Hamlet’s soliloquy “literally”: “The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune... to take arms against a sea of troubles...” We cannot understand what the Bible really (literally) means unless we appreciate its use of literary styles. Would we understand the Twenty-third Psalm properly if we were to take it “literally”? Would it not, instead, look somewhat silly? In fact, if taken literally, it would not be true: for I dare say that the Lord doesn’t make every Christian to lie down in literal, green pastures. But we don’t usually make such crude mistakes in reading Biblical poetry. We know it is written in a style that often makes use of symbolic imagery. But we must realize that the same is true of the prophets: They, also, spoke in figures and symbols, drawing on a rich heritage of Biblical images that began in the Garden of Eden.
ive gone thru all the verses those are used.
i see no reason why the isaiah judgments cant be literal sun and moon going dark? it even mentions constellation:
Isa_13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
but let me just take a guess since i see where this is going: this is about national judgment and in revelation its about jerusalem's destruction? thats what everything always is.... even tho the book was written after that but ok.
i see no reason why the isaiah judgments cant be literal sun and moon going dark? it even mentions constellation:
Isa_13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
but let me just take a guess since i see where this is going: this is about national judgment and in revelation its about jerusalem's destruction? thats what everything always is.... even tho the book was written after that but ok.
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St. John quotes hundreds of passages from the Old Testament, often with subtle allusions to little-known religious rituals of the Hebrew people. In order to understand Revelation, we need to know our Bibles backward and forward.
Almost everyone recognizes that St. John wrote his message in symbols. But the meaning of those symbols is not up for grabs. There is a systematic structure in Biblical symbolism. In order to understand Revelation properly, we must become familiar with the “language” in which it is written.
Revelation is a prophecy about imminent events — events that were about to break loose on the world of the first century.
Revelation is not about nuclear warfare, space travel, or the end of the world. Again and again, it specifically warns that “the time is near!” St. John wrote his book as a prophecy of the approaching destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, showing that Jesus Christ had brought the New Covenant and the New Creation. Revelation cannot be understood unless this fundamental fact is taken seriously.
Almost everyone recognizes that St. John wrote his message in symbols. But the meaning of those symbols is not up for grabs. There is a systematic structure in Biblical symbolism. In order to understand Revelation properly, we must become familiar with the “language” in which it is written.
Revelation is a prophecy about imminent events — events that were about to break loose on the world of the first century.
Revelation is not about nuclear warfare, space travel, or the end of the world. Again and again, it specifically warns that “the time is near!” St. John wrote his book as a prophecy of the approaching destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, showing that Jesus Christ had brought the New Covenant and the New Creation. Revelation cannot be understood unless this fundamental fact is taken seriously.
Ok, one more quick point on hermeneutics.
I am NOT going to disagree with Willie on any of this.
Everything he said is perfectly reasonable.
I'm just going to point out a bit of balance we might consider.
There is a common error which I think is often made by intelligent and well-meaning people, and that is to sometimes take the concept of "literary style" a bit too far.
An example would be saying the Psalms are poetic, and therefore, the psalms CANNOT contain any literal language whatsoever.
Well, if you turn on the radio, and listen to any song, you'll probably find it is often a MIXTURE of literal and figurative language.
Labeling a song as poetry does not mean it cannot contain any literal language or literal information.
I just think we need to be very careful as we pick through these things.
So what we really find, is that even poetic books will have literal language, and even historical books can have some figurative language... this is just how language works.
So we just need to be careful picking through these things...
and perhaps we all need to remember to lean toward civility when we disagree.
This is why I have often said that a person can get more wrong by grabbing the Bible, and deciding they will immediately understand everything they read, than they can possibly imagine.
And, these forums are probably the absolute worst places to try to do these kinds of studies. Most people need some kind of hand-holding, and it just cannot be done here.
And, these forums are probably the absolute worst places to try to do these kinds of studies. Most people need some kind of hand-holding, and it just cannot be done here.
We need to read others who have devoted their lives to studying this stuff. I lost count somewhere just past 1,000 books.... and I honestly imagine it is well beyond 2,000 by now.
I have discarded, easily, two thirds or three quarters of all I have read. But, without having done that, I would not be able to distinguish caviar from hogwash.
I have discarded, easily, two thirds or three quarters of all I have read. But, without having done that, I would not be able to distinguish caviar from hogwash.
I've read over a 1000 books myself Willie. We must be well read or something like that. 
In this matter of studying, one of the marks of a good Bible teacher (or student) is that he is constantly asking: Why is the story told in this particular way? Why is this particular word or phrase repeated several times? (How many times?) What does this story have in common with other stories? How is it different? Why does the text draw our attention to seemingly unimportant details? How do the minor incidents fit into the argument of the book as a whole? What literary devices (metaphor, satire, drama, comedy, allegory, poetry, etc.) does the author use? Why does the book sometimes depart from a strict chronological account (e.g., placing some stories “out of order”)? How are these stories related to the larger Story that the Bible tells? What does this story tell us about Jesus Christ? What does this story have to do with our salvation? Why did God bother to give us this particular information?