The Gross Error of Limited Atonement

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

But if their sin is atoned for then they are right with God. Its as simple as that.

So according to your weird theology, there is no need to preach the Gospel, or for sinners to repent and believe. Everyone is automatically saved.

Far from it. That is what you are implying. But atonement is limited to those who believe. Only one who has believed has atonement with God

And Calvinists preach the Gospel as fervently as you. They look to GOD for the results.

Since you dismissed the proper understanding of propitiation with a smart remark about somebody else Greek, we can conclude that you too have no interest in the truth, when it exposes the gross errors of Calvinism. This is pretty cultish.

But it does not expose the great errors of 'Calvinism'. Rather it exposes YOUR attempt to read it into them. God has chosen us in Christ before the foundation of the world, and foreordained us to adoption as sons. And I believe Him DO YOU????

 

[Nehemiah6]

Far from it. That is what you are implying. But atonement is limited to those who believe. Only one who has believed has atonement with God...

Since that is NOT what God says and what the Bible says, you have simply made this up to fit your theology.

I have already indicated that the APPLICATION of the atoning work of Christ is for only those who believe. But that is a far cry from claiming that the atonement itself is limited. In other words, the atoning work of Christ was for ALL HUMANITY, and those who teach otherwise make God a liar, and preach *another gospel*.So let's back up and see what the Bible says (with just one verse, Isaiah 53:6).

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

So now let us ask ourselves some pertinent questions:

1. Was Isaiah writing by Divine inspiration (Q) Absolutely.

2. Was Isaiah writing about the Lord Jesus Christ as the Lamb of God (Q) Absolutely

3. Was Isaiah describing all humanity when he said *all we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned everyone to his own way* (Q) Absolutely

4. Does this correspond to what is revealed in the book of Romans regarding the fact that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Q) Absolutely

5. Does *the iniquity of us all* means all of our sins and our guilt (Q) Absolutely

6. Did God the Father actually lay upon His sinless and holy Son, all of our sins and guilt (Q) Absolutely

7. Did Christ then not pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world through His sufferings, His death, and the shedding of His blood (Q) Absolutely

8. And did not John the Baptizer confirm this by saying *Behold the Lamb of God which TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD* (Q) Absolutely

9. So does this not mean that the atoning work of Christ (and Him being called a Propitiation) mean that all the sins and all the guilt of ALL HUMANITY were placed on Him, so that He would pay the just penalty in full, and thus open the door to salvation by grace through faith in Him and His finished work of redemption (Q) Absolutely

10. And does not the Bible clearly teach that only those who obey the Gospel are actually saved, and thus the atoning work of Christ is applied to them only (Q) Absolutely.


SO WHY DO CALIVINSTS REJECT ALL OF THIS AND PROMOTE A FALSE DOCTRINE (Q)

 

[preacher4truth]

Ok let’s look at # 3 1 John 2:2 “He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but a also for the sins of the whole world.” . Would you agree that not everyone is saved ? I believe you do so we will move on . Why are they not saved Why are they In Hell ? Are they in Hell for their sins or is it the sin of disbelief in Christ Jesus? If they are in for their sin then the penalty for sin was not removed and the atonement of Christ is not applied to them . Now looking at the idea of the sin of disbelief or rejecting Jesus . So all their other sins are paid in full they go to Hell for all eternity for that one sin ? Ok what about those that never heard the Gospel? Their are over 7 billion people on earth over 2.9 billion have never heard the Gospel message How can they reject Jesus having never heard of Him ? Many don’t have a Bible in a language they can understand. Their are over 6,000 languages and only 366 of those languages have a whole Bible . 928 have the New Testament. Many folks never heard how can they reject Jesus having never been given the offer ?
Also note a simple plain reading of language translated into another is not always the best . 1 John 2:2 “He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but a also for the sins of the whole world.” Look at the word for (The Greek Word peri it’s plus genitive) is not specific in regard to a certain way in which Christ is the propitiation “for” the sins of the world. Peri is defined “concerning” or “with respect to . It in no way is definite or specific enough to describe in what respect or way the atonement is applied. Also something I learned because I am bilingual is that one word written in one language dose not translate well into one word in another. That is why when I read or study the scriptures I use multiple Bible translations dictionaries,word studies to get fuller understanding. That and having a elder at a congregation I use to attend that teaches Hebrew and Greek helps .
Bill

Neh6 and others really need to learn from the above. It's spot on.

 

[Bogadile]

If man has free will, does God have free will too?

 

[Johnny_B]

do u have to choose between calvinism and arminianism tho?

some points are wrong some points are right. thats how i see it in the bible

No, chose the Scriptures, the problem that I have with Arminianism is that they never present their doctrine solely to show what their doctrine is. They always have to show what they think is wrong with Calvinism, just like this thread, instead of starting a thread under the title "The Evidence For Unlimited Atonement" they always concentrate on again what they preseve as what is wrong with the Doctrines of Grace. Since Arminians believe that we need to keep our salvation by doing good works, you would think that they would have written many books on a call to holiness. You find many books on the Doctrines of Grace, I before understanding the Doctrines of Grace, would always read book on grace and mercy by Calvinist because my thought was that they rely on them so much it is the key to their doctrine. I did find many books written by Calvinist on those subject and found them very helpful and they had a great infuses on God for grace and mercy. They also wrote about the full nature of God in His holiness, that yes He loves, but He also is a judge, is a warrior, they wrote about His majasty, goodness, glory, the devastation of sin, the fear of the Lord, the majesty of the cross, the necessity of the cross, they write on the full nature of God and the full nature of man and his total depravity before God, we can do good things.

Matthew 7:7 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!"

John 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life."

Romans 8:7-8 "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

There is nothing we can do to please God and this is why we need God's unmerited favor and mercy, because there is no good thing in us that pleases God.

 

[Nehemiah6]

No, chose the Scriptures, the problem that I have with Arminianism is that they never present their doctrine solely to show what their doctrine is.

First of all, this OP is not in support of Arminianism or any such thing. There is a third alternative, which is simply *Biblicism*. And Biblicism is based upon John 3:16. If God so loved *the world* that He gave His only begotten Son for the sins of the world, then that should be sufficient to disprove limited atonement. So why dont you tell us if God really meant *the world* of humanity, or was that a code-word for *the elect* (Q).

 

[Mercy4u]

I have already indicated that the APPLICATION of the atoning work of Christ is for only those who believe.

The problem is evil, not sin. Christ propitiated the Father in regards to ALL sin. Christ atoned for all sin and it is applied to all men. But they are not justified because they do not believe it.

So we have to go back to evil. Our dirty rags. Or our 'good' deeds. If we never believe, we are judged according to our works/deeds/own righteousness, because Christ paid for all sin.

Notice the unbelievers in Matt 7. They 'plead' their case with their own goods works, because sin is not the issue(Christ paid for all sin.)

Christ paid for all sin, but he did not pay for our own righteousness(evil). We will be judged according to our works/deeds/righteousness, because Christ paid for ALL sin.

2 Cor 11-15 New American Standard Bible
Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds(works/pseudo righteousness.)

rev 20:12 New American Standard Bible
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.(not sin. But works/deeds/their own righteouness(filthy rags.)

 

[Magenta]

If man has free will, does God have free will too?

God does all that He pleases

 

[SovereignGrace]

And dear brother, I responded to that post in #116 . . . .

Christ died to rid us of - the wages of sin, death. The gift of God, salvation, is through him, by him and in him. Christ death accomplished what it was supposed to accomplish . . . for all mankind w/o exception but only those who believe in him will receive eternal life, i.e. salvation - all with distinction.

What else does Romans 4 say speaking of Abraham believing God, being fully persuaded that God would do what he promised - right before in v24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. Yes, we are justified, made righteous by faith. I have asked a number of times what are people defining as faith?
Faith is to be fully persuaded in something or someone, faith is trust, faith is the same Greek word as belief . . . Abraham believed God . . . Abraham had faith (believed) God and was counted righteous; Abraham had faith (believed) in God's promise of receiving an inheritance; Abraham was ready to sacrifice Isaac because he had faith (believed) that God would raise him from the dead; Sarah had faith (believed) God would give her a child because she considered God faithful in his promise . . . etc., etc., etc.

It isn't that "God did his part, now we must do ours." It's - God's promises are to those who believe.

In all of this, what you're espousing is the Christ did His part so you now could do yours. That dog won't hunt.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So, you are saying that we receive holy Spirit first? Where is this "until God wroughts grace"? Where is this - "faith and repentance are given to them"? Where is this "they exercise them and are saved"?

Those "bones" were actually DEAD . . . no life whatsoever. A sinner is dead in trespasses and sins but not literally DEAD. A sinner is dead spiritually - they can still hear, see, taste, touch, and smell. They are still intelligent beings and can make logical decisions based on what they know to be right or wrong, i.e. moral decisions.

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? . . . So then, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. . . . .

I think it's pretty important to look at these words - believe and faith.

Believe is the Greek word pisteuo meaning - to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in) and it comes from the Greek word for faith - pistis meaning the conviction of the truth of anything, belief; and pistis comes from the root wd peitho meaning persuade, be persuaded, to trust, have confidence, be confident. All this comes from hearing the word of God. Hearing helps us believe (verb) for we hear and we are persuaded that it is true and we can place our confidence in God; the result is faith . And watch this - these words basically mean "trust" - a synonym for believe is to trust and rely on, have faith in; a synonym for belief is faith . . . a synonym for trust is faith and faith is belief and trust in and loyalty to God.

Hearing the word of God, thinking it to be true, becoming fully persuaded that we can trust what is within those pages - trusting that what God says is true and that he is a faithful God brings about a person wanting to call upon God.

Just as the jailer in Acts 16 - Sirs, what must I do to be saved? They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved . . . .Salvation is the result of faith (belief) in the Father and in the one whom he has sent, Jesus Christ. I see it too many times throughout the scope of scripture.

I haven't read where one receives the holy Spirit first . . . But that doesn't keep me from hearing your explanations and coming to a better understanding of what you believe . . .

No, I am not saying we receive the Holy Spirit first, the Christ said that to Nicodemus. I am just repeating what He said You must be born again before you can see the kingdom of heaven. He didn't say you must do something to be born again.

Faith is the evidence of the new birth, not the cause of it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

If man has free will, does God have free will too?

God is the only One who has free will.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So, you are saying that we receive holy Spirit first? Where is this "until God wroughts grace"? Where is this - "faith and repentance are given to them"? Where is this "they exercise them and are saved"?

Those "bones" were actually DEAD . . . no life whatsoever. A sinner is dead in trespasses and sins but not literally DEAD. A sinner is dead spiritually - they can still hear, see, taste, touch, and smell. They are still intelligent beings and can make logical decisions based on what they know to be right or wrong, i.e. moral decisions.

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? . . . So then, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. . . . .

I think it's pretty important to look at these words - believe and faith.

Believe is the Greek word pisteuo meaning - to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in) and it comes from the Greek word for faith - pistis meaning the conviction of the truth of anything, belief; and pistis comes from the root wd peitho meaning persuade, be persuaded, to trust, have confidence, be confident. All this comes from hearing the word of God. Hearing helps us believe (verb) for we hear and we are persuaded that it is true and we can place our confidence in God; the result is faith . And watch this - these words basically mean "trust" - a synonym for believe is to trust and rely on, have faith in; a synonym for belief is faith . . . a synonym for trust is faith and faith is belief and trust in and loyalty to God.

Hearing the word of God, thinking it to be true, becoming fully persuaded that we can trust what is within those pages - trusting that what God says is true and that he is a faithful God brings about a person wanting to call upon God.

Just as the jailer in Acts 16 - Sirs, what must I do to be saved? They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved . . . .Salvation is the result of faith (belief) in the Father and in the one whom he has sent, Jesus Christ. I see it too many times throughout the scope of scripture.

I haven't read where one receives the holy Spirit first . . . But that doesn't keep me from hearing your explanations and coming to a better understanding of what you believe . . .

Those bones were a typology of how the lost are inwardly. That is why Jesus said many times "let him who has ears hear". Not everyone has those ears. Jesus said "My sheep hear My voice." When Jesus calls His lost sheep, they hear His voice and follow. This calling is via the gospel. As we speak the words of the gospel, God quickens them to life and they exercise faith & repentance and are saved.

And for verese that say they are given faith and repentance?

Acts 13:48 Romans 9:16, Romans 10:17, Romans 12:3, Philippians 2:13, &c.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Those bones were a typology of how the lost are inwardly. That is why Jesus said many times "let him who has ears hear". Not everyone has those ears. Jesus said "My sheep hear My voice." When Jesus calls His lost sheep, they hear His voice and follow. This calling is via the gospel. As we speak the words of the gospel, God quickens them to life and they exercise faith & repentance and are saved.

And for verese that say they are given faith and repentance?

Acts 13:48 Romans 9:16, Romans 10:17, Romans 12:3, Philippians 2:13, &c.

Also Acts 5:31 and Acts 11:18.

 

[Johnny_B]

Since that is NOT what God says and what the Bible says, you have simply made this up to fit your theology.

I have already indicated that the APPLICATION of the atoning work of Christ is for only those who believe. But that is a far cry from claiming that the atonement itself is limited. In other words, the atoning work of Christ was for ALL HUMANITY, and those who teach otherwise make God a liar, and preach *another gospel*.So let's back up and see what the Bible says (with just one verse, Isaiah 53:6).

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

So now let us ask ourselves some pertinent questions:

1. Was Isaiah writing by Divine inspiration (Q) Absolutely.

2. Was Isaiah writing about the Lord Jesus Christ as the Lamb of God (Q) Absolutely

3. Was Isaiah describing all humanity when he said *all we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned everyone to his own way* (Q) Absolutely

4. Does this correspond to what is revealed in the book of Romans regarding the fact that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Q) Absolutely

5. Does *the iniquity of us all* means all of our sins and our guilt (Q) Absolutely

6. Did God the Father actually lay upon His sinless and holy Son, all of our sins and guilt (Q) Absolutely

7. Did Christ then not pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world through His sufferings, His death, and the shedding of His blood (Q) Absolutely

8. And did not John the Baptizer confirm this by saying *Behold the Lamb of God which TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD* (Q) Absolutely

9. So does this not mean that the atoning work of Christ (and Him being called a Propitiation) mean that all the sins and all the guilt of ALL HUMANITY were placed on Him, so that He would pay the just penalty in full, and thus open the door to salvation by grace through faith in Him and His finished work of redemption (Q) Absolutely

10. And does not the Bible clearly teach that only those who obey the Gospel are actually saved, and thus the atoning work of Christ is applied to them only (Q) Absolutely.


SO WHY DO CALIVINSTS REJECT ALL OF THIS AND PROMOTE A FALSE DOCTRINE (Q)

You have made a great apologetic for limited atonement in 1, 2, 5, 6, 10, on the others you have missed some important parts. In 3 Isaiah says "all we" "we have" "of us all" is Isaiah associating himself with the world of sinners or is he associated with those that are in right standing with the Lord or the elect? He is associated himself with the elect. So in verses 4, 5, and 6 he is limiting the atonement to those that are of the elct as he is. In verses 11 and 12 he associates the atonement with the sins of the many and uses the words "their iniquities" verse 12 "the many" "the sin of the many", why is he not associating himself with them? Because they are not of the elect of the Jews as he is, they are of the world or as John reorts the new song sang in Revelation 5:9-10 “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.” or

Revelation 7:9-10 "After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

Isaiah is saying that Christ's atonement is for these, "the many" he does not say, them all, if he would of that would of ment the sins of all those in the world that are not Jewish, remeber what Jesus said in Matthew 15:24 "He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Those that went astary in Israel like Isaiah said in 53:6 "All we like sheep have gone astray" he was an Israelite, so he is saying, all we Israelites have gone astray like sheep" and Jesus was sent to to gather them and free them from their sins.

When Isaiah is using "we or our" he is speaking of the righteous of the Jews, so I am using this interpretation on yur use of "our or we", number 4, no it does not correspond to Romans 3:23. Number 7, Isaiah is saying that Christ is paying for the sins of the elect Jews and the many that are not of the Israelites those mentioned in Revelation 5:9-10 and 7:9.

8 the worls are the many that Isaih spoke of and 9, no it does not, grace or unmerited favor can not be earned, the Lord give His unmerited favor to who He calls, Acts 2:39 "For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

Romans 8:30 "And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

Acts 13:48, 16:14d "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.....The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul."

The Lord predestines or appoints, He calls or opens the heart, He justifies or gives grace to believe.

First of all, this OP is not in support of Arminianism or any such thing. There is a third alternative, which is simply *Biblicism*. And Biblicism is based upon John 3:16. If God so loved *the world* that He gave His only begotten Son for the sins of the world, then that should be sufficient to disprove limited atonement. So why dont you tell us if God really meant *the world* of humanity, or was that a code-word for *the elect* (Q).

Are you thread security or the thread cop on CC? I was answering her question not responding to the thread, but I will respond to your limited atonement verse John 3:16 is a proof text for limited atonement. Read the footnote of the ESV and "For God so loved the world" can be translated as

"For this is how God loved the world," how is it that He loved the world, "that He gave His only Son" and who benifits from this giving of His only Son? Those that believe and as you put it so eloquently in number 10 “And does not the Bible clearly teach that only those who obey the Gospel are actually saved, and thus the atoning work of Christ is applied to them only” We also need to look at the context of 3:16 by looking at 17-21

“For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seenthat his works have been carried out in God.”

Making the atonement limited to those that believe by the grace of the Lord and in harmony with I Timothy 4:10 “For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.”
Notice "especially of those who believe" BAGD Greek lexicon translates the Greek word "particularly" and here is how MOUNCE translates it, “We have placed our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, particularly of those who believe.” All people or as the new song was sung in Revelation 5:9-10 "from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God"

When we read the epistles and the writer is using the words, "us, our, we" they are associating themselves with the saints/Church/elect like in Romans 5:8 God loved the world by giving His only Son, but here is how He loves the Church/elect/believers.

"but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Which makes you want to worship the Lord when you understand how much of a sinner we are and what Jesus said in John 10:15 “I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.”

It is only by the Lord's unmerited favor that we can be saved and it comes from the Lord when He calls you and it is limited to those that believe because He called them, there is no other way to receive God's grace/unmerited favor. It amazes me how people can say the are saved by grace quote Scripture about God's grace and still think that they can do something to get His unmerited favor and that it is not limited to only those that He calls and has appointed to eternal life. The word grace carries with it election and limited atonement.

You believe in limited atonement, it is evedent by some of the things you post, but you think that it is something else, when it is as simple as you put it in #10 the atonement is only for those that obey the Gospel and it is the elect that obey the Gospel. Once we look at what we are reading and interpet it by it's context and cultural or theological backround and we will get the true meaning of the Scriptures and that is why it comes across as you believe in limited atonemnt because of the Scripture you post and the Biblical truths, like the atonement is only for those that obey the Gospel, the very point of limited atonement.

 

[Nehemiah6]

You believe in limited atonement, it is evident by some of the things you post, but you think that it is something else, when it is as simple as you put it in #10 the atonement is only for those that obey the Gospel and it is the elect that obey the Gospel.

I would word it differently and say that it is those who obey the Gospel who become the elect. But the point that you are missing is that if all would obey the Gospel, all would be saved. Thus atonement is unlimited.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at [overlooked]; but now commandeth all men every where to repent

Why would God command all men everywhere to repent, unless the atonement was for all men everywhere? But since all will not obey that commandment, all will not be saved, hence the atonement will not be applicable to them. It is only the APPLICATION of the atonement that is limited, not the atonement itself, where Christ took upon Himself the sins of the whole world and became the Propitiation (1 John 2:2).

 

[Snoozy]

No, chose the Scriptures, the problem that I have with Arminianism is that they never present their doctrine solely to show what their doctrine is. They always have to show what they think is wrong with Calvinism, just like this thread, instead of starting a thread under the title "The Evidence For Unlimited Atonement" they always concentrate on again what they preseve as what is wrong with the Doctrines of Grace. Since Arminians believe that we need to keep our salvation by doing good works, you would think that they would have written many books on a call to holiness. You find many books on the Doctrines of Grace,

the reason u find so many books is because calvinism is very academic. very theoretic. and its so complicated that there needs to be books written. for example two of everything, i watched a debate on youtube and they have two wills. "decree will" and the other oen i cant remember, two calls, general call and effectual call. so thats why u need books because of complicated terms like that.
its like the trinity. u have a bunch of books about it when u could just show it in the bible from a couple verses with no philosophical exercises needed. sometimes the books are longer than the bible itself

if u just pick up the bible and read it u dont need any doctrines of grace or doctrines of arminianism. those are just theoretical academic books made by someone somewhere. they can contain some good information and things for sure. but i dont think people in the early church had to read theology books, most people couldnt probably even read.

 

[SovereignGrace]

ezekiel 37 is about the people of israel.

this is why its important to rightly divide the word of truth.
we cant take promises from Israel and apply them to gentiles in the church age. unless its done in the nt. thats how its easy to get mixed up on doctrines

Ezekiel 37 is a typology, a picture, of how God unilaterally raises the spiritually dead to life through His sovereign, omnipotent hand.

As for Israel, all believers are the Israel of God. Romans 2:28,29 Paul said a true Jew is one who is circumcised in their heart, by the Spirit, and not the flesh(foreskin).

Then in Philippians 1, Paul said we who believe, which constitutes believing Jews and Gentiles, are the circumcision. The circumcision always refers to Jews, so we are all Israel who believe.

There are not two bodies of the Christ. That's dispensationialism error being taught. There's only one body of the Christ and only one family of God. Believing Jews and Gentiles comprise the body of the Christ, the family of God.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Ezekiel 37 is a typology, a picture, of how God unilaterally raises the spiritually dead to life through His sovereign, omnipotent hand.

As for Israel, all believers are the Israel of God. Romans 2:28,29 Paul said a true Jew is one who is circumcised in their heart, by the Spirit, and not the flesh(foreskin).

Then in Philippians 1, Paul said we who believe, which constitutes believing Jews and Gentiles, are the circumcision. The circumcision always refers to Jews, so we are all Israel who believe.

There are not two bodies of the Christ. That's dispensationialism error being taught. There's only one body of the Christ and only one family of God. Believing Jews and Gentiles comprise the body of the Christ, the family of God.

Correction...its Philippians 3:3 that states we're the circumcision. Sorry about my faux pas.

 

[phil36]

the reason u find so many books is because calvinism is very academic. very theoretic. and its so complicated that there needs to be books written. for example two of everything, i watched a debate on youtube and they have two wills. "decree will" and the other oen i cant remember, two calls, general call and effectual call. so thats why u need books because of complicated terms like that.
its like the trinity. u have a bunch of books about it when u could just show it in the bible from a couple verses with no philosophical exercises needed. sometimes the books are longer than the bible itself

if u just pick up the bible and read it u dont need any doctrines of grace or doctrines of arminianism. those are just theoretical academic books made by someone somewhere. they can contain some good information and things for sure. but i dont think people in the early church had to read theology books, most people couldn't probably even read.

Scripture itself can be complicated Snoozy.. do you understand everything it teaches? Did you not have someone explain it to you, either verbally or in Writing? Yes I understand that no one can understand scripture without the Holy Spirit, but that does not mean that every topic is as easy to understand as others? Nor does it mean men with their own single translation, that's how we end up with cults.

2 Peter 3:16

He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.


You say if you just pick up the bible you don't need the doctrines of grace - It would be more correct to say that when you read the scriptures from Gen to Rev the Doctrines of Grace jump from every page!

 

[Grandpa]

I would word it differently and say that it is those who obey the Gospel who become the elect. But the point that you are missing is that if all would obey the Gospel, all would be saved. Thus atonement is unlimited.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at [overlooked]; but now commandeth all men every where to repent

Why would God command all men everywhere to repent, unless the atonement was for all men everywhere? But since all will not obey that commandment, all will not be saved, hence the atonement will not be applicable to them. It is only the APPLICATION of the atonement that is limited, not the atonement itself, where Christ took upon Himself the sins of the whole world and became the Propitiation (1 John 2:2).

I'll have to give it to you that from our point of view that is what it looked like.

It looked like everyone could come to Christ and all they had to do was will themselves to believe the Atonement and poof, they were Righteous before God.

It even felt that way at first.

It felt like I was CAUSING God to act and perform by MY choices.

But then I worked out my salvation with fear and trembling. I learned from the bible and from the Lord that He is the CAUSE of my Salvation, He is the Power of my Salvation. He is the Author and Finisher of our Faith.


I always think that if you don't understand scripture maybe you will understand logic. But no. The ones who understand the logic already understood the scripture....