Australians back same-sex marriage at polls; Parliament plans December vote

[pckts]

I'm kind of on the fence about things. And of course you will find fault with that, but I see people do wicked things in the name of religion. I feel it is safer not to fully submit to any of the fractured doctrines of Christianity, which have often been a tradition, throughout history. And tradition is doing things, because that is how they have been done previously. You never did them through yourself and your free will. You believe something because that is what you have been told to believe, you never questioned any of it. And to question it might mean you were wrong all along. It's dangerous to be on that path.

I'm flexible in my belief, always learning and listening, if people say things which make sense.

When it comes to Christianity, I have not really studied the OT. Jesus is the centre of my religion. I regard anything not said by Jesus, to be as questionable as talking to anyone else on this planet. They are always going to give their subjective view along with their beliefs. In written form, politics will use what they can for their subjective views. Did Jesus ever say, you have to read and believe the whole Bible?

So who said you have to read and believe in the whole Bible then? I'm allowed to question things. And if you have a valid answer to this, then please tell me. Maybe there is something I don't know.

You don't listen to "people", you listen to God. Now, you don't believe in the validity of The Bible, you also have the belief scripture is found outside of The Bible. I can't give you an answer because I am people, I can only quote scripture from God.

Here is your answer, you can dismiss it out of a lack of understanding and faith, or accept it.

2 Timothy 3:16 ESV

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

Proverbs 30:5 ESV

Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.

Psalm 12:6 ESV

The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times.

 

[mj007]

I do listen to God. God tells me more about the important stuff than people ever will, but he won't tell me what time the train is, or what goes well with chicken.

I was reading/studying the OT, because I wanted to understand better, and hopefully learn from it too. I just ended up shocked, so my response is just shock really.

Timothy is one of the books I enjoy. Not got to Proverbs OT, and Psalms I have looked through.

You don't listen to "people", you listen to God. Now, you don't believe in the validity of The Bible, you also have the belief scripture is found outside of The Bible. I can't give you an answer because I am people, I can only quote scripture from God.

Here is your answer, you can dismiss it out of a lack of understanding and faith, or accept it.

2 Timothy 3:16 ESV

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

Proverbs 30:5 ESV

Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.

Psalm 12:6 ESV

The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times.

 

[pckts]

I do listen to God. God tells me more about the important stuff than people ever will, but he won't tell me what time the train is, or what goes well with chicken.

I was reading/studying the OT, because I wanted to understand better, and hopefully learn from it too. I just ended up shocked, so my response is just shock really.

Timothy is one of the books I enjoy. Not got to Proverbs OT, and Psalms I have looked through.

A lot of people who are stuck in their ways, have a problem with someone like me who questions everything, and at the same time is flexible with the times, and embraces change. You are probably getting the wrong end of the stick, as am I.

You are far too indirect, self-centered, and misguided for me to really engage. I'll just be around to let people know about your denial/lack of understanding and faith in the OT, and your acceptance of gnostic material to "enhance your views and learn more about Christ".

 

[mj007]

That's so silly. So am I only allowed to read the Bible, and all other books are banned? To me it was just literature, different views, different ideas. And I didn't really learn much more than I hope for, but it was interesting to read. I'm not easily taken in by anything I read. We all form pictures, and each of us has a different picture to the next. We are not robots.

So I have a question.

How can we get past the 'who is right' 'who is the enemy', and love each other better instead?

You are far too indirect, self-centered, and misguided for me to really engage. I'll just be around to let people know about your denial/lack of understanding and faith in the OT, and your acceptance of gnostic material to "enhance your views and learn more about Christ".

 

[7seasrekeyed]

mj007;3356682'lol' isn't really a sneer, I just thought when I was studying it, it was kind of odd, and I found that kind of funny. So please point me to where it says God never wanted there to be a king. Maybe I missed that, I only read past it once.

A lot of people who are stuck in their ways, have a problem with someone like me who questions everything, and at the same time is flexible with the times, and embraces change. You are probably getting the wrong end of the stick, as am I.

I can absolutely guarantee you that most likely many people, Christians included, question God Himself. God does not reject honest questioning and I have to say neither should a Christian. I have been 'beaten' with quite a few religious 'sticks' myself which leads to questioning. I do it often, but I have to come back to God because He alone makes sense to me even when I do not make sense to myself.

what I really think, regarding being afraid to question, is wanting to believe that what you believe is the truth and you are therefore safe. does that make sense? I think that is why we really and truly need a reference outside of ourselves that is not biased or needing to prove anything.

God, is that One reference for me.

Jesus is my religion so to say.

But of course you won't accept that will you, I have to say it in a way you will accept. But the thing is, I don't answer to you.

don't be worried about what I will or will not accept because I am not the measuring stick here. I don't answer to you either, other than a reasonable expectation on your part that I will be fair and not shut you down as long as you are honest. we can even get defensive, but I don't like evasive or dishonest or lying and twisting. you may not either

Why love only those who love you?

oh. I do love some who do not love me. I really do. and it hurts every day. at least one does love me back and that is my husband. so I don't mean him. I don't much care for words and I don't think I ever did. love is deeper than words. if someone really does love you, they have patience with you, they forgive you and they love you for who you are and not what they can get out of you.

that, is how God loves us. and I feel that love of God when I question...He has all the patience in the world with me and understands all about me and still loves me

so anyway, here is the reference for you to read about God not wanting a king for Israel:

1 Samuel 8New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

Israel Demands a King

8 When Samuel became old, he made his sons judges over Israel. 2 The name of his firstborn son was Joel, and the name of his second, Abijah; they were judges in Beer-sheba. 3 Yet his sons did not follow in his ways, but turned aside after gain; they took bribes and perverted justice.

4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah, 5 and said to him, “You are old and your sons do not follow in your ways; appoint for us, then, a king to govern us, like other nations.”
6 But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to govern us.” Samuel prayed to the Lord,
7 and the Lord said to Samuel, “Listen to the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them.

8 Just as they have done to me, from the day I brought them up out of Egypt to this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so also they are doing to you.
9 Now then, listen to their voice; only—you shall solemnly warn them, and show them the ways of the king who shall reign over them.”

read the rest in I Samuel and of course the history of Saul as king underscores the actions of Saul as king and the resulting history of Israel after that, as they kept the tradition of kings, illustrates what happens when people want people to run their lives rather than God, who always had their best interests at heart ESPECIALLY when He warned them of the consequences of their sins

you know, I don't know one single Christian who has not disappointed someone somewhere along the road and I certainly cannot make that claim myself

we disappoint others and most will admit we disappoint ourselves

God desires we accept His salvation through His Son, Jesus.

 

[oldethennew]

That's so silly. So am I only allowed to read the Bible, and all other books are banned? To me it was just literature, different views, different ideas. And I didn't really learn much more than I hope for, but it was interesting to read. I'm not easily taken in by anything I read. We all form pictures, and each of us has a different picture to the next. We are not robots.

So I have a question.

How can we get past the 'who is right' 'who is the enemy', and love each other better instead?
=========================================================


ask The Saviour/Creator of the world, He explains it very well
to those whom have true hearts to listen and obey Him...

 

[7seasrekeyed]

you know I think God is the One who gives us the heart (ears) to hear Him

really

He draws us by His Spirit

we are farther gone than most would like to admit even to themselves

9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9

 

[Billyd]

Wives and Husbands

Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. 25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." 32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. 33 However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

IMHO, there is only one marriage recognized by God. It is described above. Nowhere in this description does it recognize or accept any same sex marriage.

If you are living in any other situation, you are living in a government sanctioned civil union (governments like to call it marriage). If you are in one of these civil unions, and want to be married, get on your knees and commit before God that you will live the remainder of your life according to this scripture. Then do it.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

You are far too indirect, self-centered, and misguided for me to really engage. I'll just be around to let people know about your denial/lack of understanding and faith in the OT, and your acceptance of gnostic material to "enhance your views and learn more about Christ".

I can sometimes agree with this kind of a response, but after a few exchanges with mj, I will not be so quick to judge and dismiss him

I'm not judging you either, but a little more sensitivity to the leading of God's Spirit would be a good thing here

some have the entire Bible in front of them and still don't 'get it' (not meaning you personally here)

 

[mj007]

Yes I did look it up straight away, because that's me. I like to correct myself if I am wrong, that's a good thing I think.

So I assume what you mean is that God gave them a king that he was going to take away and that was always the plan? I get you.

So could you please enlighten me about the things I found shocking, which are the reason for my recent apprehension of the OT.

1 Samuel 16:14

Now the Spirit of the Lord had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented him. Evil spirits come from God and not the Devil? God rules the evil spirits? I thought the Devil did. Extremely confused by this.

1 Samuel 5:9

But after they had moved it, the Lord’s hand was against that city, throwing it into a great panic. He afflicted the people of the city, both young and old, with an outbreak of tumors. God gives children cancer, to punish everyone else? Any human that did this kind of thing would be regarded as evil.[SUP][/SUP]

mj007;3356682'lol' isn't really a sneer, I just thought when I was studying it, it was kind of odd, and I found that kind of funny. So please point me to where it says God never wanted there to be a king. Maybe I missed that, I only read past it once.

A lot of people who are stuck in their ways, have a problem with someone like me who questions everything, and at the same time is flexible with the times, and embraces change. You are probably getting the wrong end of the stick, as am I.

I can absolutely guarantee you that most likely many people, Christians included, question God Himself. God does not reject honest questioning and I have to say neither should a Christian. I have been 'beaten' with quite a few religious 'sticks' myself which leads to questioning. I do it often, but I have to come back to God because He alone makes sense to me even when I do not make sense to myself.

what I really think, regarding being afraid to question, is wanting to believe that what you believe is the truth and you are therefore safe. does that make sense? I think that is why we really and truly need a reference outside of ourselves that is not biased or needing to prove anything.

God, is that One reference for me.

Jesus is my religion so to say.

But of course you won't accept that will you, I have to say it in a way you will accept. But the thing is, I don't answer to you.

don't be worried about what I will or will not accept because I am not the measuring stick here. I don't answer to you either, other than a reasonable expectation on your part that I will be fair and not shut you down as long as you are honest. we can even get defensive, but I don't like evasive or dishonest or lying and twisting. you may not either

Why love only those who love you?

oh. I do love some who do not love me. I really do. and it hurts every day. at least one does love me back and that is my husband. so I don't mean him. I don't much care for words and I don't think I ever did. love is deeper than words. if someone really does love you, they have patience with you, they forgive you and they love you for who you are and not what they can get out of you.

that, is how God loves us. and I feel that love of God when I question...He has all the patience in the world with me and understands all about me and still loves me

so anyway, here is the reference for you to read about God not wanting a king for Israel:

1 Samuel 8New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

Israel Demands a King

8 When Samuel became old, he made his sons judges over Israel. 2 The name of his firstborn son was Joel, and the name of his second, Abijah; they were judges in Beer-sheba. 3 Yet his sons did not follow in his ways, but turned aside after gain; they took bribes and perverted justice.

4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah, 5 and said to him, “You are old and your sons do not follow in your ways; appoint for us, then, a king to govern us, like other nations.”
6 But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to govern us.” Samuel prayed to the Lord,
7 and the Lord said to Samuel, “Listen to the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them.

8 Just as they have done to me, from the day I brought them up out of Egypt to this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so also they are doing to you.
9 Now then, listen to their voice; only—you shall solemnly warn them, and show them the ways of the king who shall reign over them.”

read the rest in I Samuel and of course the history of Saul as king underscores the actions of Saul as king and the resulting history of Israel after that, as they kept the tradition of kings, illustrates what happens when people want people to run their lives rather than God, who always had their best interests at heart ESPECIALLY when He warned them of the consequences of their sins

you know, I don't know one single Christian who has not disappointed someone somewhere along the road and I certainly cannot make that claim myself

we disappoint others and most will admit we disappoint ourselves

God desires we accept His salvation through His Son, Jesus.

 

[tourist]

I do listen to God. God tells me more about the important stuff than people ever will, but he won't tell me what time the train is, or what goes well with chicken.

I was reading/studying the OT, because I wanted to understand better, and hopefully learn from it too. I just ended up shocked, so my response is just shock really.

Timothy is one of the books I enjoy. Not got to Proverbs OT, and Psalms I have looked through.

Regarding what goes well with chicken, Stove Top Stuffing.

 

[mj007]

Yes, because when we are discussing things, and our opinions, our logical view, it's a logical outcome. Someone is right someone is wrong. And usually no one agrees. I see it over and over 'online', everywhere. Everywhere there is text communication between people. There is less love, and more condemnation.

So I thought I would say something out of the ordinary. Something more than this discussion.

That's so silly. So am I only allowed to read the Bible, and all other books are banned? To me it was just literature, different views, different ideas. And I didn't really learn much more than I hope for, but it was interesting to read. I'm not easily taken in by anything I read. We all form pictures, and each of us has a different picture to the next. We are not robots.

So I have a question.

How can we get past the 'who is right' 'who is the enemy', and love each other better instead?
=========================================================


ask The Saviour/Creator of the world, He explains it very well
to those whom have true hearts to listen and obey Him...

 

[pckts]

I can sometimes agree with this kind of a response, but after a few exchanges with mj, I will not be so quick to judge and dismiss him

I'm not judging you either, but a little more sensitivity to the leading of God's Spirit would be a good thing here

some have the entire Bible in front of them and still don't 'get it' (not meaning you personally here)

I'm judging myself as not being patient and sensitive enough for him. I'm glad that you are, he definitely needs guidance and his views to be challenged by someone stuck with the unchanging timeless Truth.

A lot of people who are stuck in their ways, have a problem with someone like me who questions everything, and at the same time is flexible with the times, and embraces change. You are probably getting the wrong end of the stick, as am I.

Jesus is my religion so to say.

But of course you won't accept that will you, I have to say it in a way you will accept. But the thing is, I don't answer to you.

 

[mj007]

Always good to have some nice stuffing with chicken. I will check that for my next Sunday dinner.

Regarding what goes well with chicken, Stove Top Stuffing.

 

[mj007]

Well I myself am quite sensitive as some have pointed out and I accept that. The trouble I have, is while growing up in a Christian family, the people I've known in my life, many Christians who talk as elegantly and well learned about all the Bible and scripture, live a Biblical life, and yet have done wicked things. So I don't know how to get past that, to me, anyone could be a wolf in lambs clothing. Saying one thing, doing another, behind closed doors.

I don't know how to get past that, but it doesn't change my belief in God and Jesus. I have different views because I have a different mind, and yes many don't have time for the way my brain is wired. When people assume it's self-centred, usually those people have got the wrong end of the stick, or take things literally, while much of the time I might speak abstractly or process things that way. But then it comes out the wrong way (to them), but only to people who see me for me, with some empathy, really see what I'm trying to say, kind of thing.

I'm especially sensitive of how people treat others, more than how they treat me. That's the opposite of self-centred.

But in real life arguments, it's always been me who presses the stop button and says lets not argue. Of course I'll say that and it makes some people argue even more, maybe they were just looking for an argument? I don't get that really. Some people are somewhat crazy.

QUOTE=pckts;3356747]I'm judging myself as not being patient and sensitive enough for him. I'm glad that you are, he definitely needs guidance and his views to be challenged by someone stuck with the unchanging timeless Truth.[/QUOTE]

 

[7seasrekeyed]

mj007;3356737Yes I did look it up straight away, because that's me. I like to correct myself if I am wrong, that's a good thing I think.

So I assume what you mean is that God gave them a king that he was going to take away and that was always the plan? I get you.

yeah. I think that is easy to understand in that passage. in a manner, you could say God was allowing them to have what they wanted, they would suffer the consequences (understand that actually means the entire history from that point on would be affected by that choice) of their choices. principal still in effect today and has been since the garden of Eden

So could you please enlighten me about the things I found shocking, which are the reason for my recent apprehension of the OT.

sure. but there is a qualifier for that. that would be God's holiness and unchanging character. we cannot define God by our standards and we really do not have a clue that He is totally Spirit and beyond all hindrances that actually make us human. we are not the original creation. that has been lost. anyway, if you can kind of hold that thought and follow I will try to simplify

1 Samuel 16:14

Now the Spirit of the Lord had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented him. Evil spirits come from God and not the Devil? God rules the evil spirits? I thought the Devil did. Extremely confused by this.

going back here, we see that Saul had multiple times actually rejected God and 'done his own thing' consequences. God spoke to His people, Israel, by prophets. prophets were chosen by God to speak to Israel on behalf of God. you might remember when God wanted to speak to Israel in the wilderness after they had been freed from captivity in Egypt, that they were too afraid and they asked that God speak to them through Moses instead. notice they chose to hear from a man and not God directly. (Exodus 20:19)

so Israel actually went from hearing God, to hearing a prophet to listening to a king. that king, here, was Saul and he did not listen to the prophet who spoke from God. Saul did what he thought was right. therefore, God rejected him as king because he did not illustrate the truth, but rebellion and rejection of what God desired.

the verse you are questioning actually causes alot of people to question.

sin, can open doors to the devil who will take every opportunity to harrass, harm or even destroy. this is mainly ongoing and unrepentant sin. God will allow this to happen as sin has consequences. this is a bigger principal and requires learning more about the doctrine of sin which is beyond the scope of my response here, but I hope you can see what you did not see before.

you might note that the evil spirit troubled Saul at different times and that it was not constantly upon him. in my opinion, and this is only an opinion, you would think that Saul would have cried out to God for relief from it when he was in a sound mind and not bothered by it. who knows...maybe he did, but for God to have 'delivered' him from it, he would have had to have put aside his sin and obeyed God

God does allow the consequences of sin to befall the sinner. He did so right from the start in that Adam and Eve bore the consequences of their disobedience. however, God also immediately provided a remedy for the consequences of sin by promising Jesus..Genesis 3: 14-15

1 Samuel 5:9

But after they had moved it, the Lord’s hand was against that city, throwing it into a great panic. He afflicted the people of the city, both young and old, with an outbreak of tumors. God gives children cancer, to punish everyone else? Any human that did this kind of thing would be regarded as evil.

again, this goes back to a better understanding of one of the basic doctrines of the Bible...sin

the KJ says they had 'emerods'..which is not cancer. it's 'piles' or hemorrhoids. the Philistines were the enemies of Israel and God demonstrated His omniscient power by affecting them in a way the could not explain through human means. tumors is an incorrect
translation

to cut to the chase...because you can read the entire thing yourself...the ark was ultimately sent back to Israel. This ark represented God and not to be touched by anyone, incuding an Israelite.

anyway, these are valid questions that are best answered by understanding the major doctrines of the Bible

 

[7seasrekeyed]

possibly be back later

have actual real time life to attend to

although I think this discussion is real enough too

 

[Dude653]

Wives and Husbands

Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. 25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." 32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. 33 However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

IMHO, there is only one marriage recognized by God. It is described above. Nowhere in this description does it recognize or accept any same sex marriage.

If you are living in any other situation, you are living in a government sanctioned civil union (governments like to call it marriage). If you are in one of these civil unions, and want to be married, get on your knees and commit before God that you will live the remainder of your life according to this scripture. Then do it.

Except for the fact that marriage predates Christianity.
By that logic I guess atheists can't get married.
Marriage is a legal contract between two adults. That's why when you're married at the courthouse they give you the option to include God in your wedding vows.

 

[MichaelOwen]

Except for the fact that marriage predates Christianity.
By that logic I guess atheists can't get married.
Marriage is a legal contract between two adults. That's why when you're married at the courthouse they give you the option to include God in your wedding vows.

Time out! You are saying that marriage predates Christianity......when THAT in of itself is a false statement. Do you not read Genesis and do you not know that John 1 starts off that In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.......We know that Christ, the Father and the Holy Spirit are one, even Christ himself said to His disciples, If the world hate you, remember that it first hated me. Christ has been around since the beginning of time. God created the union between a MAN and a WOMAN, that marriage predates EVERYTHING else that is an abomination under God, and that marriage and union is still the only way God will honor. I would seriously do some studying, and I'm not talking about worldly studies either....READ YOUR BIBLE SIR

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Except for the fact that marriage predates Christianity.
By that logic I guess atheists can't get married.
Marriage is a legal contract between two adults. That's why when you're married at the courthouse they give you the option to include God in your wedding vows.

as a Christian then, you say that marriage is between two adults?

the Bible defines it as between a man and woman

the fact that two homosexuals cannot reproduce is evidence of it's ungodly source

ALL that God created in the beginning, He told to reproduce after it's kind

marriage is more than a legal contract in the eyes of God

it is also considered to be a metaphor of Christ and the church