why would millennial kingdom not be literal?

[Snoozy]

valiant has some weird interpretations. he talked about other gospel or something too which i didnt understand at all.

the devil is called a snake but snakes arent always bad like the one in the wilderness with moses.
the devil is called a lion yet Jesus is called the lion of Judah proving that lions arent always bad.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

In OT 'a thousand' regularly means 'a great many'

And does that mean that a thousand never ever means a specific thousand? I would think God should mean a thousand unless it is obvious that He doesn't. For instance, it could be assumed that there are more than 1000 hills with cattle on them in the whole world and so it seems obvious that He was not strictly counting. But does that mean that God CAN'T strictly count? And is it wise to take a...device of human speech (given to help us understand that God owns everything) and make a law of interpreting ALL scripture from it, hence declaring that every time God says a thousand He does not strictly count? We know that in places He DOES strictly count. So...it doesn't seem like a logical way to think about things to me.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I would agree with all of this.

I guess they need to answer.

I guess I was asking about the verses which switch back and forth..

Oh! Of course!
None come strictly to mind at present....maybe like...say a verse says Israel will never be attacked or overtaken again. Then it talks about them having all nations that will come against them. This obviously is putting a future time first, then switching to a DIFFERENT future time that is not the SAME future time.

It's all throughout the prophets, most notably the famous one where Jesus SHOWS us that one verse can follow another and they NOT be speaking of the same time frame. (In Isaiah, I'm referring to.) Where He reads the one verse about the time of favor, but cuts off in mid verse. So actually, even in ONE verse, two different times can be spoken of!

 

[Snoozy]

Oh! Of course!
None come strictly to mind at present....maybe like...say a verse says Israel will never be attacked or overtaken again. Then it talks about them having all nations that will come against them. This obviously is putting a future time first, then switching to a DIFFERENT future time that is not the SAME future time.

It's all throughout the prophets, most notably the famous one where Jesus SHOWS us that one verse can follow another and they NOT be speaking of the same time frame. (In Isaiah, I'm referring to.) Where He reads the one verse about the time of favor, but cuts off in mid verse. So actually, even in ONE verse, two different times can be spoken of!

this is true.
can u help me find that verse that i highlighted in the quote?

 

[tanakh]

Another thought occurred to me about your own thoughts tanakh.

Because of the verse about owning the cattle on a thousand hills, you believe therefore that the other time you see the word thousand, that it has to not be literal.

So...hmmm...this is difficult to convey...it's like, a snake/serpent refers to satan all throughout scripture. Does this mean that when moses held up the pole with the snake on it that it must have to do with satan?

And also, leaven is referred to all throughout scripture as false teaching of men. So in the parable where Jesus says the Kingdom is like a woman who hid some leaven in bread, must He be saying the Kingdom is like false teaching?

And also the despicable man is described as looking like a lamb even though lamb means Jesus all throughout scripture. But we know that this is a despicable man and NOT Jesus being referred to.

In one instance, a serpent had nothing to do with satan and leaven had nothing to do with false teaching and a lamb is not referring to Jesus. What I'm trying to say is...there is no rule that one thing always has to mean the same thing. Because 1000 was used symbolically to mean many and lots in one instance does not mean that 1000 can never be very specific.

The book of Revelation is full of symbolism. It uses other numbers as well as 1000 seven for example is found throughout the book. Most of Revelation is based on verses and passages found in the OT in particular Ezekiel and Daniel. I don't have the time or space to go into the ins and outs of the Millennium beliefs in detail here and I doubt that many would change their position on the subject even if I did. To sum up there is more to question than just the length of the Millennium but whether the Millennium as interpreted here exists at all.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The book of Revelation is full of symbolism. It uses other numbers as well as 1000 seven for example is found throughout the book. Most of Revelation is based on verses and passages found in the OT in particular Ezekiel and Daniel. I don't have the time or space to go into the ins and outs of the Millennium beliefs in detail here and I doubt that many would change their position on the subject even if I could. To sum up there is more to question than just the length of the Millennium but whether the Millennium as interpreted here exists at all.

I can see this.

Yet in daniel we see symbolism represent literal events (beasts represent literal kingdoms) and we also see lengths of time spoken of and messiah coming in this period. Which were literally fulfilled

Should we not treat Rev the same way?

I personally see revelation is a deeper more clearer update to the prophesies given daniel

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

this is true.
can u help me find that verse that i highlighted in the quote?

Why do you ask such a hard thing of me??
I will go look but it may take me a while! And if I run across any others like it, I'll jot them down too. I'll start with Joel and hope I can find an example there rather than in a longer prophet like Isaiah.

One thing coming to mind just now is how God always removes the righteous before His wrath (Noah, Lot), and yet in Rev., it says the earth will be reaped twice. The first reap sounds awful - the wicked being removed and the second reap sounds much more pleasant. This would seem to be a reversal of how God has always done it if not for our understanding (dim understanding) of how some of the other verses come before these final two reapings. And oddly, He seems by prophecy to be coming twice just as He always was. Once in secret to gather us together before His wrath and then again when every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him. But maybe it isn't really so odd because scripture says He causes everything to repeat. And how's THAT for a repeat, that He will once again come from three different places - once to gather us, once where even those who pierced Him will see Him and weep, and also from Bozrah with His robes stained red! It is too much to understand!

 

[Christian71]

I seldom get into these discussions... In the poll I voted No... Since these verses of scripture have not been brought up in John 14 I bring them up now... I'm just wondering how you that believe in a literal Millennial Kingdom on earth will handle it... To me it's self explanatory... Brother Glen

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[Snoozy]

I seldom get into these discussions... In the poll I voted No... Since these verses of scripture have not been brought up in John 14 I bring them up now... I'm just wondering how you that believe in a literal Millennial Kingdom on earth will handle it... To me it's self explanatory... Brother Glen

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

this doesnt refute the millennial kingdom.

this is about the rapture. Jesus comes to get the church

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I seldom get into these discussions... In the poll I voted No... Since these verses of scripture have not been brought up in John 14 I bring them up now... I'm just wondering how you that believe in a literal Millennial Kingdom on earth will handle it... To me it's self explanatory... Brother Glen

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Not sure how this relates. This is true, whether there is a literal 1000 years for the living here on earth. Or not.

Can you help me understand your reasoning?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

this doesnt refute the millennial kingdom.

this is about the rapture. Jesus comes to get the church

I think this is for everyone, rapture or not. Even those who live through the mellinium.

 

[dcontroversal]

The new Jerusalem is not coming down until the 1000 years are finished and during the 1000 years the earth is void.
Jesus will rule the earth when it is recreated and made new (after the 1000 years), not while it is sinful and desolate or void.

Jer 4:23 explains, “I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens … had no light.” Of course, this sounds like it’s right out of Gen 1:2, but if you keep reading: “I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled” (4:24, 25).

We can easily conclude that since the mountains are now gone, they must have been there before. But if there is any doubt, Jeremiah continues, “I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down” (V. 26). Now we have cities that are broken down, so this cannot be at the time of the garden of Eden or a pre-creation picture.

But what breaks it all down? The Bible says “the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.” This chapter also says that there is no life on earth at this time, and moreover, the slain of the Lord covers one end of the earth to the other. Furthermore, “They shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground” (Jer 25:33).
Well, it’s very simple. When Jesus comes down with power, the righteous, both the living and the dead, who are resurrected, are caught up with Him, and the sinful living are destroyed by the brightness of His coming. And as Revelation 20 says, “The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished” (v. 5).

You do understand that mountains can be figuratively speaking of governments right....<---read Daniel the Ancient of days casts down all thrones, governments and powers.....there will be NO NATION, KINDGOM OR POWER tjat competes with Jesus for rule of the planet....at at the 7th trump of Revelation he seizes control of all KINGDOMS AND THEY BECOME HIS...

 

[dcontroversal]

Amen, there is so many OT prophesies concerning this time which shows things which could not be said to happen in heaven, but here on earth that it is hard to ignore, which is why I believe Symbolic interpretation started.

Amen.....much to be spiritualized away and swept under the rug for sure.......

 

[MarcR]

Oh! Of course!
None come strictly to mind at present....maybe like...say a verse says Israel will never be attacked or overtaken again. Then it talks about them having all nations that will come against them. This obviously is putting a future time first, then switching to a DIFFERENT future time that is not the SAME future time.

It's all throughout the prophets, most notably the famous one where Jesus SHOWS us that one verse can follow another and they NOT be speaking of the same time frame. (In Isaiah, I'm referring to.) Where He reads the one verse about the time of favor, but cuts off in mid verse. So actually, even in ONE verse, two different times can be spoken of!

This sort of juxtaposition of time is typical of Isaiah. Isaiah often mixes the immediate future, the first coming, and the second coming in the same verse.

It seems that He recorded God's revelation without understanding what He was given.

 

[valiant]

valiant has some weird interpretations. he talked about other gospel or something too which i didnt understand at all.

the devil is called a snake but snakes arent always bad like the one in the wilderness with moses.
the devil is called a lion yet Jesus is called the lion of Judah proving that lions arent always bad.

which shows how little you know about millennial teaching

 

[Snoozy]

which shows how little you know about millennial teaching

u dont even explain urself.
u just say it doesnt mean what it says and then say i dont know much. not very convincing. i can open up revelation 19 see Jesus returning, revelation 20 millennial kingdom satan bound then loosed and permanently destroyed, judgment, revelation 21 new heaven and earth.

how can u go through those chapters? u have to invent some weird way to say revelation 19 is the second coming, and rev 20 is also the second coming.

 

[valiant]

And does that mean that a thousand never ever means a specific thousand? I would think God should mean a thousand unless it is obvious that He doesn't. For instance, it could be assumed that there are more than 1000 hills with cattle on them in the whole world and so it seems obvious that He was not strictly counting. But does that mean that God CAN'T strictly count? And is it wise to take a...device of human speech (given to help us understand that God owns everything) and make a law of interpreting ALL scripture from it, hence declaring that every time God says a thousand He does not strictly count? We know that in places He DOES strictly count. So...it doesn't seem like a logical way to think about things to me.

In ancient days a thousand has the regular meaning of a long period of time. Standing by itself it is seldom if ever literal.

It is a question as to how people would understand 'a thousand'.

What God can do is irrelevant. The question is what He would do to people who thought like that.

 

[valiant]

'a thousand generations' means always a large number of generations.

Similarly 'a thousand years' means a large number of years.

 

[Snoozy]

'a thousand generations' means always a large number of generations.

Similarly 'a thousand years' means a large number of years.

for arguments sake im willing to concede ok the thousand isnt literal thousand.

but what does it mean then? how can Jesus be returning in rev 19, and then again in rev 20?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

In ancient days a thousand has the regular meaning of a long period of time. Standing by itself it is seldom if ever literal.

It is a question as to how people would understand 'a thousand'.

What God can do is irrelevant. The question is what He would do to people who thought like that.

I'm with snoozy on this one. If you would prefer that we say this reign will be "for a long, long time" rather than "for a thousand years" before satan is released again and then the new heavens and earth are here, I don't even have the will to argue it.