Verse for "once saved always saved"?

[mailmandan]

Please re-read my post, and then reply to what I wrote rather than some nonsense!

I replied in part to what you posted, which is the same nonsense I was taught when I still attended the Roman Catholic church several years ago. I will reply further to the rest of your lengthy post later.

 

[Sagart]

I replied in part to what you posted, which is the same nonsense I was taught when I still attended the Roman Catholic church several years ago. I will reply further to the rest of your lengthy post later.

I do not know what you were taught by some Roman Catholics, but the view that I posted is, and has been for centuries, what mainstream Protestant theology teaches regarding Paul’s teaching about works. To state his position very succinctly, there are two biblical covenants—the covenant of Law, and he covenant of grace. Christians are under the covenant of grace rather than the covenant of Law. When writing about works, Paul uses the expression, “works of the Law;” that is, unless he is writing to believers who know his teaching well enough that he does not always elaborate by adding the words, “of the Law.” In my post, I quoted verses from Paul’s writings that demonstrate this fact.

 

[stonesoffire]

You attributed to me a ridiculous post written by someone else!

It wasn't intentional. I don't know why your name is on top of the post that Light made. Its to lightindarkness.

This post has my name too. ???? Am getting confused. Lol

 

[stonesoffire]

i believe the command is "Come" and "Eat" with "Believe" being tacit.

I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.
(John 6:35)

I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And this bread, which I will give for the life of the world, is My flesh.
(John 6:51)

​

or maybe we are in fact talking about different things

No, that's it. The tree of life in Revelations is Jesus. We are commanded to eat of His body, drink ofvHis blood. All symbols pointing to faith. Some left Him at this Word. Obedience is to believe His Word, His Work. So we have a communion service that illustrates the work that He finished. The sacrifice of His life for ours. This is one with Him.

Born of Gods very nature. In the communion service, most teach to examine self for any sin that might be in the life in order to partake. But, that's not the truth. We are to discern His body, that we receive the benefits of our salvation.

Being One with Him is as secure as anyone can be. And putting faith in His work, is our work. We are dead to sin, and alive to God. Done deal. We believe. We receive benefits then. In essence, we have returned to the garden of Eden, and receive all that we need by Jesus.

There's so much to unveil from His Word. The Word leaves are sprouts. That is us, His body, formed in His image, taking His life, His Spirit, and His Word to the nations.

Communion is eternal, communion is Jesus, and members of His body.

 

[LightShinesInTheDarkness]

I do not know what you were taught by some Roman Catholics, but the view that I posted is, and has been for centuries, what mainstream Protestant theology teaches regarding Paul’s teaching about works. To state his position very succinctly, there are two biblical covenants—the covenant of Law, and he covenant of grace. Christians are under the covenant of grace rather than the covenant of Law. When writing about works, Paul uses the expression, “works of the Law;” that is, unless he is writing to believers who know his teaching well enough that he does not always elaborate by adding the words, “of the Law.” In my post, I quoted verses from Paul’s writings that demonstrate this fact.

If your lengthy original post wasn't explicit enough, I don't think further explanation would do much good to clarify what you wrote about. Does one really need a book on the subject (other than the Bible) to understand the difference between works of the Law and the works of Christianity that Christians are supposed to be doing? Sometimes it's not a matter of needing more information, but of needing God-given understanding of the information one has already been given.

 

[know1]

God's Gift Of Everlasting Life Thru Faith In Jesus Christ

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but """have everlasting life"""

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son """hath everlasting life"""

John 6:35 Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; """he that believeth on me shall never thirst"""

1 Peter 1:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy """hath begotten us""" again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To """an inheritance incorruptible""", and undefiled, and """that fadeth not away""", reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are """kept by the power of God through faith""" unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my word & believeth on him that sent me, """hath everlasting life""" and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

John 10:28 """I give unto them eternal life"""; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

Romans 8:33-39
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord

MY favorite verse on the subject:

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; """""that ye may know that ye have eternal life"""""
(NOTE: That you may """KNOW""" that you have eternal life)

Day by day, we can enjoy the blessing of our eternal salvation. We are being guarded & protected by the power of God's indwelling Holy Spirit.

Given to every person that places their Faith. In the redemptive sin atoning sacrifice. Found in the death (sins wage paid), burial & resurrection (God's receipt, payment receive) of Jesus the Christ.

Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel,

1Jn 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
[But if you don't let that which you have heard from the beginning remain in you then you will NOT CONTINUE IN THE SON AND IN THE FATHER.]
1Jn 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
[IF you let that which was preached from the beginning REMAIN IN YOU, THEN THIS PROMISE OF ETERNAL LIFE is for you.]


Eternal life is truly given to us who remain in Christ, but it has conditions attached to it.
To prove OSAS, one must be able to disprove scripturally, the verses that say contrary, and I have yet to find one person to do so.
Would you mind interpreting the above verses and show me how you can get eternal security from them?
And please don't say that the conditional particle is not a condition. That particular particle being the word, if.

 

[garee]

Originally Posted by Sagart
When Paul wrote of “works” that he contrasted with grace and faith, he was always referring to the works of the Law, that is, the Old Testament covenant of Law as opposed to the New Testament covenant of grace:

There is only one covenant of grace according to one work of Christ’s faith as a labor of his love. It worked in the Old Testament saints just as it does on this side of the cross.

It's the demonstration that we look back to and they looked ahead by faith (the unseen to} .Same glory as the beginning of the first resurrection. The graves were open and the tens of thousands of old testament saints in whom the Spirit of Christ dwelt entered in to the heavenly Jerusalem prepared as the wife of Chris, the church. The veil is rent

They were receiving the end of their faith and died not receiving the new incorruptible body just as we are today, no difference .According to His work of faith that works in us to both will and do His good pleasure and not that of themselves.

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.1Pe 1:9-11

Therefore, the “works” that he wrote of in Eph. 2:9 were not the “good works” that Jesus taught one must perform to be justified and saved (Matt. 16:27, 25:34-46; Mark 10:17-30; Luke 10:25-37; John 5:28-29) or the good works that James taught one must perform to be justified and saved (James 2:14-26) or the good works that we read of in the faith chapter in the New Testament (Heb. 11), but works of the Law and circumcision in particular. (continued in the following post)

James, in his epistle, approached the matter from a very different perspective; that is, he vigorously taught that works are essential for ones justification and salvation, but he was not writing of circumcision or any other work of the Law, but exclusively the good works that Jesus commands us to perform

.

Impossible to separate the works of Christ's labor of love, from the faith or intention of Christ. We are given his faith as his work that works in us as our new gift of the new spirit that could never die.

Many seem to gloss over the commandment spoken of to us in the first verse of James 2 it sets the context for the whole chapter .

We are to have no gods in the likeness of man before the Holy Spirit. We are saved by his work of faith according to his three day labor of love. The end of the matter is shown in James 2 verse 7 . Again it violated the first commandment not to have the faith of God that works in man in respect to any person seen.(flesh and blood) Having other gods before him is to blaspheme the name by which we are called . That kind of blasphemy is not forgivable .Having it in respect to that seen is forgivable.

When the Son of man was approached on every occasion he pointed people way from venerating his temporal flesh as that seen and when called good master as Lord He attributed it to God not seen, and replied only God (not seen) is good.

I would suggest its never about what Paul said verses what James said. If they seem to appose each other we so search for a answer and not have the faith of Christ which comes from hearing God in respect to Paul or James. Abraham or Rehab we could be in danger of blasphemy.


Note .... (purple in parenthesis ) my comments in a hope of keeping the the direction of loosening and binding attributed to the unseen law of faith in respect to the word of coming from and not in our direction towards him as our amen towards him witnesses we have heard .

Jam 2:1 My brethren, have not the "faith of" (coming from) our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of (coming from)glory, with respect of (coming from) persons.

Below the conclusion the faith of (coming from) denotes the authority/name by which we are saved by His work of faith .His work provide all the grace needed to exercise to believe to the salvation of ones soul

Jam 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

 

[garee]

Eternal life is truly given to us who remain in Christ, but it has conditions attached to it.
To prove OSAS, one must be able to disprove scripturally, the verses that say contrary, and I have yet to find one person to do so.
Would you mind interpreting the above verses and show me how you can get eternal security from them?
And please don't say that the conditional particle is not a condition. That particular particle being the word, if.

There are many verses. Which many?

Some who taste and see the good things to come fall away only to crucify Christ again and again holing him to public shame as if one demonstration was not enough for them to believe as an anchor to their soul.... having no anchor they drift.

I would say only the many have eternal life .Its those he will not cast out as he draws them towards his own self.If he began the good work he will finish it to the end.

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.



How many of those many do you think he will cast out?

 

[FlyingDove]

Salvation is Complete and Final

Paul said; 2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith (As David), according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
(NOTE: I Believed)

David said; Psalms 116:10 I believed, therefore have I spoken:
(NOTE: I Believed)

The word ‘believed’ is a "past tense" verb which shows us something that is "already done".

The righteousness of the Law is about what ""you do"".

The righteousness of Grace is about what ""Jesus has done"".

Change the ""tense"": From what you "do". To what Jesus has "DONE"!

Analogy: The Law of gravity is always at work. However, it can be superseded by the law of lift.

The Law of sin and death are always at work. However, they have been superseded by the Law of Faith (Rom 3:27)

Salvation is spoken of as a finished transaction, described with "past tense" verbs. (Jn 1:12, Eph. 1:13)

When a person places thier faith in the redemptive sin atoning Death (sins wage paid), Burial & resurrection (God's receipt, payment received) of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Their salvation is final and complete. Salvation is not a process, it is an event. Christ described salvation as a birth because it is an instantaneous transforming event. You can't be UNBORN!!!!

15 Verifiable Greek to English translators agree here:

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words:

Topic Salvation: (Strong's #4991 — Noun Feminine — soteria — so-tay-ree'-ah )
(b) """eternal deliverance granted immediately"""
by God to those who accept His conditions of repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus, in whom alone it is to be obtained, upon confession of Him as Lord, Rom. 10:10; for this purpose the gospel is the saving instrument, Rom. 1:16; Eph. 1:13

Topic: Save, Saving: (Strong's #4982 — Verb — sozo — sode'-zo )
(b) of the spiritual & """eternal salvation granted immediately""" by God to those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, e.g., RV "(those that) were being saved;" 16:31; Rom. 8:24, RV, "were we saved;" Eph. 2:5,8: 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:5; of human agency in this, Rom. 11:14; 1 Cor. 7:16; 9:22;

 

[mailmandan]

One of the first Bible passages that I memorized as a young Christian was Ephesians 2:8-9 in the King James Version,

8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.

When Paul wrote of “works” that he contrasted with grace and faith, he was always referring to the works of the Law, that is, the Old Testament covenant of Law as opposed to the New Testament covenant of grace:

So YOUR version of Ephesians 2:8,9 goes like this? - "For by grace you have been saved through faith and good works, and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God. Not of works of the law (circumcision) so that no one can boast." Romans Catholiciss erroneously interpret Ephesians 2:8,9 in a very similar way -- "saved by grace through faith "infused with works/good works" just not specific works of the law." Saved through faith + "these" works (good works) just not "those" works (merely limited, specific works of the law) is not what Paul was saying. He meant works in general, as we also see in (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). *Not once in the entire NT did Paul ever say that man is "saved by works."

I discovered the ROOT of the problem of the Roman Catholic misinterpretation. I was in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who made this statement:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith".Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

His argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works. Roman Catholics seem to think by not teaching that justification comes through perfect obedience to the whole law that they are not teaching salvation by works, yet they still claim that we are saved based on accomplishing this check list of works above. It's still "salvation by works" no matter how much they try to sugar coat it.

That false theology has also crept into the so called church of Christ (Campbellism). Here is a quote from someone who attends the church of Christ that I was in a discussion with about the plan of salvation. - "It is works of obedience that help save us and not works of the law or works of merit." ​There it is again. Saved by "these" works and just not "those" works nonsense.

Rom. 2:4. Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5. but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6. who will render to every man according to his works:

These verses are often misinterpreted by Roman Catholics and Campbellites as well. If one reads Romans 2:4-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it is imperative to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

Therefore, the “works” that he wrote of in Eph. 2:9 were not the “good works” that Jesus taught one must perform to be justified and saved (Matt. 16:27, 25:34-46; Mark 10:17-30; Luke 10:25-37; John 5:28-29) or the good works that James taught one must perform to be justified and saved (James 2:14-26) or the good works that we read of in the faith chapter in the New Testament (Heb. 11), but works of the Law and circumcision in particular. (continued in the following post)

Absolutely false. What works did Jesus teach must be performed to be justified and saved in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? BELIEVES IN HIM is not salvation by works, but salvation through FAITH. In Matthew 16:27, Jesus said "reward" each person according to what they have done. Eternal life/Salvation is a gift (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8) and not a reward. *Also see 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 in regards to "reward."

In regards to Mark 10:17-30, Jesus showed the rich young ruler how short he falls of keeping the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37). The rich young ruler confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus.

The rich young ruler missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). His face fell and he went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life. If keeping the commandments is the basis by which we receive eternal life, then why isn't this remark the pattern for all discussions concerning eternal life? Paul would have said to the jailer who asked, "what must I do to be saved?" by replying in Acts 16:31 - keep the commandments, yet that's not what Paul said. He said "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.."

Jesus knows the hearts of all men and responds to each individual a little differently because He knows where their need is. He didn't respond to the woman at the well, or to Nicodemus or to the rich young ruler the same way, yet the consistent pattern in scripture is salvation by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9).

In Luke 10:25-37, Jesus was pointing the Lawyer to the law because it was the standard with which he judged himself. Keep the Law and you’ll be saved, but can you do that? If you stumble in one part, you’re guilty of all (James 2:10). It follows that if keeping the law saves you, then not keeping it perfectly will condemn you. So, if you fail to keep it at all, you are cursed (Galatians 3:10). This is why justification is by faith in Christ alone, and that explains why Paul said in Romans 3:28 that we are "justified by faith apart from the works of the law" because no one is able to keep the law perfectly.

Jesus applies peoples' own standards to themselves when they seek to be justified before God based on works. If you hold to justification by faith alone, then the standard is not works but faith in Christ's finished work of redemption which is the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. If your standard is faith and works, then you're obligated to keep the whole law. However, such a standard can save no one because all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). Also see Romans 10:1-4; Philippians 3:9).

In regards to John 5:28-29, I've noticed that you continue to read the Bible through the lens of "works salvation" and you also continue to confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture.

The good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good) are not the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the evidence of it. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart.

Doing good flows inescapably from a heart that is saved and doing evil flows equally inescapably from a heart that is unsaved, as we already saw in Romans 2:6-10. Notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - verse 24) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.

What did Jesus say in John 3:18? - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already..

Are believers described as "those who have done good" or those who have done evil?"

Are unbelievers described as those "who have done evil" or "those who have done good?"

 

[mailmandan]

James taught one must perform to be justified and saved (James 2:14-26) or the good works that we read of in the faith chapter in the New Testament (Heb. 11), but works of the Law and circumcision in particular. (continued in the following post)

James, in his epistle, approached the matter from a very different perspective; that is, he vigorously taught that works are essential for ones justification and salvation, but he was not writing of circumcision or any other work of the Law, but exclusively the good works that Jesus commands us to perform.

Let's examine James 2:14-26.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to validate his claim). Where is the evidence? That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save him, but it showed/proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works. He was "shown to be righteous."

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs.

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

In a nutshell, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*

When we carefully read Eph. 2:8-9 in the context of 8-16 (see below), we see (especially in verse 11, but also in the context), that Paul is explaining to the Christians in Ephesus that a Gentile could become a Christian without keeping the Law, specifically without being circumcised.

Ephesians 2:8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9. not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
11. Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so- called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands—
12. remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14. For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
15. by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
16. and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

It's not merely specific works of the law of Moses but any works or works of righteousness (Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) that are the insufficient means of our salvation. You cannot dissect good works from the moral aspect of the law of Moses (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40) as I already explained in post #1047. To limit Paul's condemnation of works merely to specific works of the law of Moses as opposed to meritorious good works is reading into the text a distinction that is not there. If works of any kind played even a small part in obtaining salvation, then we would have grounds to boast.

The grace of God is the dynamic action of God by and through which He saves us from sin and its consequences through faith, and empowers us to serve Him. It is grace because the action is wholly voluntary and without any obligation on the part of God, and is freely given to us through the faith that He also gives to us.

Grace is the unmerited favor of God. It is where God shows us mercy, kindness, and patience instead of the judgment that we deserve for sinning against Him. God's grace cannot be earned by our actions or sincerity. Grace is based on the character of God and not on our sincerity, performance, or ability to keep the law. Otherwise, grace would not be grace.

Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

Gal. 2:21, "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

2 Timothy 1:9, "who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity."

God's grace operates sovereignly in the lives of believers.

1 Corinthians 15:10 - But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.

2 Corinthians 1:12 - For our proud confidence is this: the testimony of our conscience, that in holiness and godly sincerity, not in fleshly wisdom but in the grace of God, we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially toward you.

2 Corinthians 12:9 - And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

An integral part of that faith is our volitional obedience to Christ as we yield to the power of the Holy Spirit working in our lives. That obedience includes the performance of the good works that He commands us to perform.

This is the same error that Roman Catholics teach as I pointed out in post #1070. Here again is a quote from a Roman Catholic:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith".Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

Faith is belief, trust, reliance in Christ for salvation. Obedience which follows is works. Faith is faith and works are works. By teaching that obedience is part of faith, you are defining faith as obedience/works and teaching that we are saved through faith + obedience/works. That was the stumbling block that I had to get past, prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago.

(All Scripture quotations are from the NASB, 1995, unless otherwise noted)

**The Greek pronoun τουτο translated “that” in Eph. 2:8 is neuter in gender and the Greek noun translated “faith” in the same verse is feminine in gender and some commentators have argued that the pronoun, therefore, cannot refer to faith but must refer to the process of salvation (the Greek noun for “salvation” is also feminine). This argument is without merit, however, because και τουτο is an idiomatic expression and the gender of the pronoun is consequently insignificant. The Church Fathers (Chrysostom, Theodoret, and Jerome in particular) interpreted the pronoun as referring to faith and so have many scholars and commentators including Erasmus, Beza, Crocius, Cocceius, Grotius, Estius, Bengel, Meier, Baumgarten-Crusius, Bisiping, and Hodge. More recent scholars and commentators acknowledge that the pronoun may refer to the noun “grace,” the verb “saved,” the noun “faith,” or the process of salvation by grace. See especially the two-volume commentary on Paul’s Epistle to the Ephesians by Marcus S. Barth and the 494 page commentary on Paul’s Epistle to the Ephesians by Andrew T. Lincoln.

In Romans 6:23, Paul said the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. The AMPC Bible in Ephesians 2:8 reads - For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God. Some interpret "saved by grace through faith" all as a gift.

See also Robertson’s A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, p. 704

In regards to Ephesians 2:8, AT Robertson comments:

For by grace (th gar cariti). Explanatory reason. "By the grace" already mentioned in verse Romans 5 and so with the article. Through faith (dia pistew). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse Romans 5 to make it plainer. "Grace" is God's part, "faith" ours. And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tauth, and so refers not to pisti (feminine) or to cari (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex umwn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God's gift (dwron) and not the result of our work.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/ephesians/ephesians-2-8.html

The Church Fathers (Chrysostom, Theodoret, and Jerome in particular) interpreted the pronoun as referring to faith and so have many scholars and commentators including Erasmus, Beza, Crocius, Cocceius, Grotius, Estius, Bengel, Meier, Baumgarten-Crusius, Bisiping, and Hodge.

Roman Catholics love to quote the Church Fathers as if they were infallible to support such false doctrines as infant baptism and transubstantiation. There were things said by the Church Fathers that I agree with and there were also things said that I do not agree with. The Church Fathers were not infallible and did not all agree on everything, just like scholars today. We must ultimately rely on "THUS SAITH THE LORD."

 

[John146]

Does James say we are justified by works and not faith alone?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Me, I was justified the moment I believed the gospel of Jesus Christ. No works needed.

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

[Ralph-]

Me, I was justified the moment I believed the gospel of Jesus Christ. No works needed.

You know if the justification by faith really happened by if you then have the justification by works James is talking about.

Abraham's faith all by itself made him righteous (justified him) in Genesis 15:6. Abraham's obedience justified him as having that faith when he offered up Isaac in Genesis 22:12.

The true believer is, both, justified by faith apart from works, and justified by works. Or else they are showing they are not really justified by faith apart from works.

 

[Metternich]

Why does God test the faith of someone like Abraham if Abraham is already justified and eternally secure?

 

[know1]

The “funny” thing is that so far, not so much as one verse has been posted that supports the new and novel doctrine of eternal security! The very same verses have been posted over and over again while ignoring the fact that it has been clearly shown that these verses, when read in the Greek New Testament given to us by God Himself, do not support the doctrine of eternal security. Moreover, it has been shown over and over again that many of these verses actually teach the doctrine of conditional security!



Hopefully, people will stop listening to you, and study the Bible in the languages in which it was given to us by God Almighty. Moreover, The Bishop of the Church of Rome did not usurp authority over the other bishops of the Church until the fifth century. Furthermore, the other bishops were still free to interpret the Bible as they saw fit. The Church as a whole was widely divided over a number of doctrines, and between 325 A.D. (the First Council of Nicea) and 787 A.D. (the Second Council of Nicea), five more Church Councils were held. We have detailed written records of these councils, the theological issues that were discussed and debated, and the outcomes of the councils. The concept that a Christian could not lose his salvation was never introduced, and we have in the ancient literature of the church no attempt to teach it, and no attempt to refute it. Indeed, the concept that a Christian could not lose his salvation is first mentioned in the literature from the first century of the Protestant Reformation when the concept was deduced from the new concept that man can do nothing to determine his salvation—either possitively, or negatively.



Fundamentally evil replies such as this testify very loudly to the fact that some Christians can and do fall from grace, and become eternally lost.




Only a horribly deceived fool does not heed to history written by godly and responsible men when that history is supported by hundreds of thousands of original documents. Moreover, your history, “The Roman church torched all books or writings they deemed as heresy,” is not supported by so much as a wet noodle, and is nothing but a filthy lie from the darkest abyss of hell!

You sir, are a history buff and a wealth of information.
I enjoy reading your posts, as they are very informative.
Right now I am up to about 54 computer pages of scripture verses and information on how it is possible for one to either lose their salvation or no longer be in Christ. I am going to copy some of what you wrote to add to my collection.
Thanks for your participation on this subject.

 

[know1]

You Do understanding my point, It has been given to you You can not see it BECAUSE you do not interpret that way.

But hey, one more time. John 6.

WHoever believes in him will NEVER DIE, LIVE FOREVER, Will NEVER HUNGEER AND NEVER THIRST, Will Never BE LOST, will BE RESSURECTED BY HIM (vs be delivered to him) and HAS ETERNAL LIFE

so. Taken literally, there you have a passage where jesus gave you what you ask.

but you claim this is not true, So your the one making it an interpretation issue, Not me.

My point is you have been given what you ask, Why do you keep asking?

I would like to ask you some things as well.
You say you believe scripture and even "Taken literally", why then don't you believe the below scripture literally?

Jas 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

The word, save, literally means, to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal [the physical body], preserve, save (self), do well, to be (or make) whole [which would be our whole makeup, spirit, soul, and heart or body, the whole person].

Given that you believe scripture concerning your belief of eternal security at the moment of one's salvation or new birth, which does not clearly state OSAS, why don't you believe the same for scripture that clearly DOES state that one SHALL be healed or made whole physically when the prayer of faith is made on behalf of the Christian who is sick?
I see double standards for the way scripture is being interpreted.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I would like to ask you some things as well.
You say you believe scripture and even "Taken literally", why then don't you believe the below scripture literally?

Jas 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

The word, save, literally means, to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal [the physical body], preserve, save (self), do well, to be (or make) whole [which would be our whole makeup, spirit, soul, and heart or body, the whole person].

Given that you believe scripture concerning your belief of eternal security at the moment of one's salvation or new birth, which does not clearly state OSAS, why don't you believe the same for scripture that clearly DOES state that one SHALL be healed or made whole physically when the prayer of faith is made on behalf of the Christian who is sick?
I see double standards for the way scripture is being interpreted.

I have witnessed people praying for the sick and those people being healed.

so.

Can you explain why Jesus gave people promises in John 6 which are not true?

 

[Sagart]

Does James say we are justified by works and not faith alone?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Me, I was justified the moment I believed the gospel of Jesus Christ. No works needed.

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

When Romans 3:26 is read in the absence of a basic knowledge of the Bible, it can be understood to imply that a man can live like the devil himself, and believe in Jesus like the devil himself believed in Jesus, and yet be justified by God.


When I was initially justified by God, it had absolutely nothing to do with any works of any kind that I had done. It only had to do with God’s love for me and His plan for my life. He wiped my slate clean of all wrongdoing, and told me through His word to trust Him for the ability to keep my slate clean of all wrongdoing. Moreover, He told me through His word to trust Him for the ability to add to my slate good deeds. Furthermore, He warned me through His word of the fatal consequences of trampling under foot the Son of God, and regarding as unclean the blood of the covenant by which I was sanctified, and insulting the Spirit of grace.

 

[7777pinacled]

Despite years of Bible study and talking to many people, I have not yet had anyone show me a verse that clearly says "once saved, always saved?" Is there such a verse in the Bible, or is the doctrine of eternal security a conclusion from study of Scriptural themes and principles?

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."


Seems pretty clear to me.
Not sure why this is even a question.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

When Romans 3:26 is read in the absence of a basic knowledge of the Bible, it can be understood to imply that a man can live like the devil himself, and believe in Jesus like the devil himself believed in Jesus, and yet be justified by God.


When I was initially justified by God, it had absolutely nothing to do with any works of any kind that I had done. It only had to do with God’s love for me and His plan for my life. He wiped my slate clean of all wrongdoing, and told me through His word to trust Him for the ability to keep my slate clean of all wrongdoing. Moreover, He told me through His word to trust Him for the ability to add to my slate good deeds. Furthermore, He warned me through His word of the fatal consequences of trampling under foot the Son of God, and regarding as unclean the blood of the covenant by which I was sanctified, and insulting the Spirit of grace.

Mere belief will nto save anyone, It does not imply what you think, What it implies is those who place their faiht in him, he justify them nothing more nothing less.