How To Be Un-Saved

[Budman]

Then you live in sin too.

So, answer the question:

Since me and you, according to you, are living in sin (because you say any and all sinning is 'living in' sin), are we not going to inherit the kingdom because we 'live like this', or are we going to inherit the kingdom despite 'living like this' because grace is our license to 'live like this' and still inherit the kingdom?


"19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."-Galatians 5:19-21


Which is it, budman?

Those verses speak of the lost person. One who has not believed/placed their faith in Jesus. Because who among us doesn't get jealous, have fits of anger, isn't selfish, or envious, etc., at times?

We wouldn't inherit the Kingdom if any of our sins were attributed to us. But, praise God, Jesus paid for them - all of them. When God looks at one who has placed their faith in Jesus, He sees a sinless, righteous, holy, and perfect person, fit for the Kingdom. We have the very righteousness of Christ imputed to us.

We are as sinless as Jesus is, and will remain sinless as long as Jesus does.

 

[DJ2]

Amen Lady Blue! Salvation is not probation. Eternal life is not temporary life. Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

Salvation is not temporal nor are we personally and individually guaranteed salvation while we run the race. We are promised a crown of life, we are not guaranteed one. You want this to be true but the flow and form of the scriptures do not support such a notion. If the churches/bodies of Christ had to be warned of losing their place, how much more the individuals who make up the body of Christ.

Do not be fooled, even the most sincere faith can be lost. There are no guaranteed winners in a race, this is the very purpose Paul uses the analogy. Many will start the race but not all will finish. Not finishing does not mean they were never runners. Without faith there can be no appeal for salvation. We are not allowed to claim the faith of others or of times past. God is not mocked, dieing faithless will spell doom for most. Only those who enter the day of judgement in faith will be granted the crown of life. Those who die without that faith will not be allowed to partake of the banquet. The five virgins who left to find oil were barred from entering the wedding, this did not make them non-virgins, just virgins who missed the wedding.

OSAS is a mockery and attack on the cornerstone of salvation, faith unto death.

 

[Budman]

OSAS is a mockery and attack on the cornerstone of salvation, faith unto death.

"If we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself." (2 Timothy 2:13) Who is the "we" Paul speaks of?

Salvation is, and will remain, a gift. Grace is, and will remain, unmerited.

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" (Titus 3:5)

We have been saved without our works of righteousness. It's contrary to the gospel to have God now demand we must have works of righteousness to remain saved.

 

[Magenta]

Salvation is not temporal nor are we personally and individually guaranteed salvation while we run the race. We are promised a crown of life, we are not guaranteed one.

When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:13b-14
​

 

[HeraldtheNews]

This was on my Disqus this morning by CS Berean, and it was so good, I thought I'd share it here.


If a Born-Again Christian willingly chooses to lose their salvation, after receiving Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior and repenting of their sin (Acts 2:38, 16:31; Rom 10:9-10), the common-sense, logical reality is that God, the Father, would have to ask Jesus, God the Son, to give back His gift of love to Him and fail to honor His promise to never cast them out (Jn 6:37) and ask God, the Holy Spirit to disobey the Father's commands and permanently withdraw His presence. The person would have to un-drink the water of eternal life given by Jesus and so that they will be thirsty again (Jn 4:14).

Jesus would have to do the following:

Quit as their defense attorney (1 Jn 2:1)
No longer protect or keep them safe (Jn 17:9-12)
Divorce them (Rev 19:7)
Rescind their citizenship of Heaven (Jn 15:16; Eph 2:12-13,19)
Put them back into the world (Jn 17:16)
Blot out their names from the book of life (Rev 3:5)
Allow death and life, angels and rulers, things present and things to come, powers, height, and depth, and anything else in all creation, to separate them from the love of God found in Him (Rom 8:38-39)
No longer be their advocate before the Father (1 John 2:1)
Make them an un-new creation (2 Cor 5:17);
Make them un-near to Him (Eph 2:12-13,19)
Un-bury them and un-baptize them so that they will no longer walk in newness of life(Rom 6:4)
Un-crucify their old nature (Gal 2:20)
Un-adopt them (Rom 8:23)
Un-circumcise them (Col 2:11)
Un-complete them (Col 2:9-10)
Un-author their faith (Heb 12:2)
Un-finish their faith (Heb 12:2)
Un-hold them from the firm grasp of His hand (John 10:28-29)
Un-buy and refund the payment He made by His blood
Un-predestine them so they can no longer be conformed to His image
Un-sanctify them (John 17:17; Heb 10:14)
Un-deliver them from the domain of darkness (Col 1:13)
Un-transfer them out of His kingdom, where they were once conditionally sanctified daily (Rom 8:28-31; Eph 1:11)
Un-call them (Rom 8:30,9:24,; 1 Cor 1:2,9; Gal 5:13; Eph 1:18)
Un-justify them (Rom 3:24,28,5:9,10:10; 1 Cor 6:11; Titus 3:7)
Un-glorify them (Rom 8:25, 28-31)
Un-cancel all their spiritual debts (Col 2:13-14)
Un-seal them (2 Cor 1:22, 5:5; Eph 1:13, 4:30)
Un-wash them (Tutus 3:5)
Un-forgive them of all their sins (1 Cor 6:11)
Un-forget their sins (Heb 10:17)
Un-consider them holy (Eph 1:4)
Un-consider them blameless in His sight (Eph 1:4, 2:8; Rom 8:9,11:6)
Un-buy them (1 Cor: 6:19-20, 7:23-24)
Un-born them (1 Jn 2:29, 3:9, 4:7, 5:1,4,18)
Move out from living within them as the new Holy of Holies (1 John 2:19, 3:6,9; Rom 8:9)
Revoke their position of no longer living in His new nature (Rom 8:9)
Rescind and fail to honor His promise to never leave and forsake them (Heb 13:5)
Go back on and fail to honor His promise to never cast them out (Jn 6:37).
God, the Holy Spirit, who was given as a guarantee (2 Cor 5:5) would have to do the following:
Cut them out of His Will as co-heirs with Jesus (Rom 8:17).
Un-fill them (becoming un-Born-Again) (Col 2:9-10);
Un-anoint them (1 John 2:27)
Stop and undo His good work begun in them (Phil 1:6, 2:13)
Fail to honor His promise to keep them from stumbling until the end when Jesus comes again (1 Cor 1:8; Jude 1:24-25).

To say that an individual could be separated from the love of God or remove themselves from His firm grasp, and His promise to NEVER leave them, after He bought and paid for them, and they are His possession, as well as His dwelling place, the Holy of Holies, is at the very least, illogical and intellectually incongruous.

When God makes a promise, He NEVER reneges on, or breaks, His word.

Just saying...

that's pretty good for "just sayin'" !! like nuking an ant--



got that suckahh for sure... and that's all the enemies of God, the deceiving spirits can do-- just pump up their empty opposition with their empty, powerless lies, and try to get Christians, who are backed by the vast power of God, to believe they are a threat.

it's more than "illogical and intellectually incongruous" (not sure what that means, but) to doubt God's word and command to save us dishonors the honor and Word of God, and the perfect offering of Jesus. In it's extreme form, which can come from mental distress, PTSD, spiritual distress, oppression, depression, and all manner of evil attack, it is a form of blasphemy, even grieving the Holy Spirit, or at least resisting the Light, which is common for fallen nature, which would be a very serious offense if not for the power of the New Covenant covering. But, it is not blaspheming the Holy Spirit, even if it is rogue anti-christ "thoughts", since as Christians, unless a person is out of their mind, we don't knowingly and willingly oppose the Holy Spirit which is the presence of Christ, spiritually.

I think most people doubt their salvation when they are distressed or come from legalistic religions, or traumatic childhoods. It can seem like an unrelenting "storm," at times-- but: if we could try and remind ourselves who can calm the storm, and ask Him to do so--
Jesus said, ""My peace, I give you, not as the world gives..."

Also, the bible says that "banished are those who question the Lord." But, that was the Old Testament. sorry, I don't have the energy to look up the scriptures right now--

So, you are right--
if someone is called, we were chosen before birth, and Jesus said "I have not lost even one..."

So, if someone walks away from the Lord, or even opposes Him, the Bible seems to imply that if they have no desire to repent, then it could be that they "never knew" the LOrd, not that they can be taken from Him.
It's a relationship based on freedom, not coercion--

 

[DJ2]

So if LGF persistently tells others that they are doomed to hell, regardless of faith in Christ, regardless of Christ's atonement, but purely on the basis of whether they worship God congregationally on one day or another, even after having repeatedly been corrected by dozens of elders in the church on the matter, is he in unrepentant sin?

What LGF is pushing is a return to following the sabbath as outlined in the 10 Commandments. I do not agree with this reasoning since we live under the new covenant. But if his conscience will not allow him to see this I will not condemn him for it. On his actions towards others, it is on him to defend his beliefs properly with logic and scripture. If he is right we will be at fault, if not he will answer to God.

I do not not condemn the OSAS groups for their beliefs, I actually hope they are right. But scripture does not show this to be the case. I am sure many people who believe in OSAS are quite sincere, this error will not affect their salvation but it may give a false sense of assurance to many. An assurance that in the end will lead many to their doom.

 

[LoveGodForever]

So if LGF persistently tells others that they are doomed to hell, regardless of faith in Christ, regardless of Christ's atonement, but purely on the basis of whether they worship God congregationally on one day or another, even after having repeatedly been corrected by dozens of elders in the church on the matter, is he in unrepentant sin?

Well there is no truth in your statement above whatsoever. As I am not saying what your teaching. SIN is the transgression of God's LAW and NOT BELIEVING God's WORD.

If anyone is living a LIFE of KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN they will NOT ENTER the KINGDOM of HEAVEN period no matter how you want to say it. These are God's WORDS not mine. If you do not agree take it up with GOD on Judgement day. Only God's WORD is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it.

KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN will keep all those who practice it OUT of GOD's KINGDOM.

The false Gospel from the Garden of Eden is from the father of lies. You can choose to believe GOD or BELIEVE the devil it is up to you. God's WORD will judge us in the last days.

.................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

 

[DJ2]

"Ifwe are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself." (2 Timothy 2:13) Who is the "we" Paul speaks of?

Salvation is, and will remain, a gift. Grace is, and will remain, unmerited.

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" (Titus 3:5)

We have been saved without our works of righteousness. It's contrary to the gospel to have God now demand we must have works of righteousness to remain saved.

Faith unto death is a work of righteousness?

 

[HeraldtheNews]

Salvation is not temporal nor are we personally and individually guaranteed salvation while we run the race. We are promised a crown of life, we are not guaranteed one. You want this to be true but the flow and form of the scriptures do not support such a notion. If the churches/bodies of Christ had to be warned of losing their place, how much more the individuals who make up the body of Christ.

Do not be fooled, even the most sincere faith can be lost. There are no guaranteed winners in a race, this is the very purpose Paul uses the analogy. Many will start the race but not all will finish. Not finishing does not mean they were never runners. Without faith there can be no appeal for salvation. We are not allowed to claim the faith of others or of times past. God is not mocked, dieing faithless will spell doom for most. Only those who enter the day of judgement in faith will be granted the crown of life. Those who die without that faith will not be allowed to partake of the banquet. The five virgins who left to find oil were barred from entering the wedding, this did not make them non-virgins, just virgins who missed the wedding.

OSAS is a mockery and attack on the cornerstone of salvation, faith unto death.

It's not our faith that "holds" us as Christians to the New Covenant, or our "works." That would be like "walking on water," every day-- We do have a humble-assurance of salvation, but we must endure to the end, and never sell-out to powers of evil. Our ability to believe, or our hearts, or our works--none have the power of authority to either justify or condemn us. That would make idols out of individuals.
It's the power of God that holds us in His Light, and helps us to walk in the Light, day-by-day, not our own power.

Christians who knowingly drop out of the race, or are disqualified, whatever Paul meant by his theology, are those who possibly were not children of God in the beginning. You make it sound like salvation is "performance-based," like if you don't win a medal, you're out. ARe we running the race so that when we finish, we become children of God?

 

[DJ2]

When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:13b-14
​

Read what I wrote again, "nor are we personally and individually guaranteed salvation while we run the race."

Question: Who are the pronouns "you", "our" and "those" referring to?

Answer: "those who are God's possession."

Paul is writing in a general sense. Hence the use of pronouns. This verse cannot be used as a individual and personal guarantee but a broad pledge to all Christians who are faithful unto death.

Do not be afraid of the things which you are about to suffer. Look, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested; and you will have oppression for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. (Rev, 2:10)

 

[HeraldtheNews]

I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus, that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge, even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you, so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. (1 Cor 1:4-9)

This is a very comforting verse. Many people these days are facing distressing times and spiritual oppression. I didn't mean to appear lighthearted with the comic images of nuking the ant, about a very serious subject. I just meant that the point was very powerfully made by Budman, that those who are truly born-again Christians, with the confirmation of bearing fruits of that relationship, are Sons and Daughters of the Kingdom of Heaven (Children of God). As this verse in 1 Cor. 1:4-9 teaches so clearly. I felt a conviction of the Holy Spirit after posting support that we can not lose our salvation. I think what we are all trying to say here in agreement with the Bible, is that a born-again faithful Christian relationship with God, in knowing and receiving spiritually, and following Jesus, day-by-day in the free-gift of salvation of the New Covenant, is like a marriage between a man and woman. If someone just makes a mental commitment to being a Christian, and is not truly "married to the New Covenant," and goes out and lives a life of unfaithfulness, partying, and not living the way of God's peace and friendship that Jesus lived, I think it could be said that the Bible does support the warning that they could fall short and be disqualified, based on "full-knowledge and consent" that the Bible describes as "to whom much is given, from whom much will be expected."

 

[Adstar]

This was on my Disqus this morning by CS Berean, and it was so good, I thought I'd share it here.


If a Born-Again Christian willingly chooses to lose their salvation, after receiving Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior and repenting of their sin (Acts 2:38, 16:31; Rom 10:9-10), the common-sense, logical reality is that God, the Father, would have to ask Jesus, God the Son, to give back His gift of love to Him and fail to honor His promise to never cast them out (Jn 6:37) and ask God, the Holy Spirit to disobey the Father's commands and permanently withdraw His presence. The person would have to un-drink the water of eternal life given by Jesus and so that they will be thirsty again (Jn 4:14).

Jesus would have to do the following:

Quit as their defense attorney (1 Jn 2:1)
No longer protect or keep them safe (Jn 17:9-12)
Divorce them (Rev 19:7)
Rescind their citizenship of Heaven (Jn 15:16; Eph 2:12-13,19)
Put them back into the world (Jn 17:16)
Blot out their names from the book of life (Rev 3:5)
Allow death and life, angels and rulers, things present and things to come, powers, height, and depth, and anything else in all creation, to separate them from the love of God found in Him (Rom 8:38-39)
No longer be their advocate before the Father (1 John 2:1)
Make them an un-new creation (2 Cor 5:17);
Make them un-near to Him (Eph 2:12-13,19)
Un-bury them and un-baptize them so that they will no longer walk in newness of life(Rom 6:4)
Un-crucify their old nature (Gal 2:20)
Un-adopt them (Rom 8:23)
Un-circumcise them (Col 2:11)
Un-complete them (Col 2:9-10)
Un-author their faith (Heb 12:2)
Un-finish their faith (Heb 12:2)
Un-hold them from the firm grasp of His hand (John 10:28-29)
Un-buy and refund the payment He made by His blood
Un-predestine them so they can no longer be conformed to His image
Un-sanctify them (John 17:17; Heb 10:14)
Un-deliver them from the domain of darkness (Col 1:13)
Un-transfer them out of His kingdom, where they were once conditionally sanctified daily (Rom 8:28-31; Eph 1:11)
Un-call them (Rom 8:30,9:24,; 1 Cor 1:2,9; Gal 5:13; Eph 1:18)
Un-justify them (Rom 3:24,28,5:9,10:10; 1 Cor 6:11; Titus 3:7)
Un-glorify them (Rom 8:25, 28-31)
Un-cancel all their spiritual debts (Col 2:13-14)
Un-seal them (2 Cor 1:22, 5:5; Eph 1:13, 4:30)
Un-wash them (Tutus 3:5)
Un-forgive them of all their sins (1 Cor 6:11)
Un-forget their sins (Heb 10:17)
Un-consider them holy (Eph 1:4)
Un-consider them blameless in His sight (Eph 1:4, 2:8; Rom 8:9,11:6)
Un-buy them (1 Cor: 6:19-20, 7:23-24)
Un-born them (1 Jn 2:29, 3:9, 4:7, 5:1,4,18)
Move out from living within them as the new Holy of Holies (1 John 2:19, 3:6,9; Rom 8:9)
Revoke their position of no longer living in His new nature (Rom 8:9)
Rescind and fail to honor His promise to never leave and forsake them (Heb 13:5)
Go back on and fail to honor His promise to never cast them out (Jn 6:37).
God, the Holy Spirit, who was given as a guarantee (2 Cor 5:5) would have to do the following:
Cut them out of His Will as co-heirs with Jesus (Rom 8:17).
Un-fill them (becoming un-Born-Again) (Col 2:9-10);
Un-anoint them (1 John 2:27)
Stop and undo His good work begun in them (Phil 1:6, 2:13)
Fail to honor His promise to keep them from stumbling until the end when Jesus comes again (1 Cor 1:8; Jude 1:24-25).

To say that an individual could be separated from the love of God or remove themselves from His firm grasp, and His promise to NEVER leave them, after He bought and paid for them, and they are His possession, as well as His dwelling place, the Holy of Holies, is at the very least, illogical and intellectually incongruous.

When God makes a promise, He NEVER reneges on, or breaks, His word.

Just saying...

Yes God never breaks an agreement.. The New Covenant.. Covenant means agreement

But Humans can break the agreement through coming to a state of disbelief in the Words of Jesus and the Atonement He secured...

We don't lose our salvation as such.. But we can and do throw it away....

 

[HeraldtheNews]

What LGF is pushing is a return to following the sabbath as outlined in the 10 Commandments. I do not agree with this reasoning since we live under the new covenant. But if his conscience will not allow him to see this I will not condemn him for it. On his actions towards others, it is on him to defend his beliefs properly with logic and scripture. If he is right we will be at fault, if not he will answer to God.

I do not not condemn the OSAS groups for their beliefs, I actually hope they are right. But scripture does not show this to be the case. I am sure many people who believe in OSAS are quite sincere, this error will not affect their salvation but it may give a false sense of assurance to many. An assurance that in the end will lead many to their doom.

I'm going to relent and say that I agree with you for the most part. My relationship with the Lord has been one of constant upheaval and spiritual battles, depression and oppression. Winning spiritual warfare doesn't earn salvation either. So, my beliefs tend to come from that experience of having lived under too much legalism, and too little grace, that leads to an idolatrous belief of self-justification, or like I said before, like justification based on "walking on water," where one wavering of faith and we sink into the waves. Peter was already saved and on-board the "Ark of faith," when he walked on water. So, it was not justification, but, sanctification.

My own battle has been in trying to become a child of God, based on religious performance, which is what legalistic churches teach, either outright or implied by their traditions. This is not the right understanding. Being born-again in Christ, must be received as a free-gift, it can not be earned. But, like a marriage covenant, entering into the New Covenant of Faith, this relationship must be real, and confirmed in our hearts and lives, like DJ2 says here, and Jesus said, and Paul, et al, all the way to the end-zone. Or, like American football-- if we receive the football (guys) or the baby (gals), we must carry it all the way to the end-zone!! If we drop the football, or God-forbid, drop the baby, the team has to re-group and get back on the field and finish.

I'm going to walk on water myself here for a minute, after a lifetime of anguished theology, being tossed back and forth like a football, again. It's just as dangerous to walk with a false assurance of entitlement, walking in riotous living, as it is to walk in anguished doubt and insecurity, resisting the Heavenly Light of Grace, which dishonor's the sacred Blood of the New Covenant, God's faithful Word, and our own word.

So, both sides are right; and both sides are wrong.
It does help those who struggle with faith and oppression to assure them/us,
as Budman did; But, it also helps to emphasize the truth of the warnings of the Bible that we must have a "living faith," to carry salvation to the end.

We have a humble assurance of salvation, when we walk worthy of the Lord, faithfully to the end.
An arrogant assurance based on entitlement, or just a lukewarm commitment, that makes a mockery of God's honor or our own is not truly a biblical assurance.
So, I am going to agree with DJ2 here and say that OSAS (Once saved, always saved) if it is taught with empty faith, without a confirmation of a faithful life,

As DJ2 says here:
"it could give a false sense of assurance to many. An assurance that in the end will lead many to their doom."

I believe his statement here has a confirmation and consensus among a majority of Christians, and in the Bible.

 

[MattG]

Is unsaved really just mean unbelieving?

Is unbelief, not being saved?

Is having belief, then maybe not talking to God, or the Lord Jesus Christ for a little while, or reading your bible does God reject your belief?

Is there anyone willing to help me with these questions please?

 

[Magenta]

Read what I wrote again, "nor are we personally and individually guaranteed salvation while we run the race."

Question: Who are the pronouns "you", "our" and "those" referring to?

Answer: "those who are God's possession."

Paul is writing in a general sense. Hence the use of pronouns. This verse cannot be used as a individual and personal guarantee but a broad pledge to all Christians who are faithful unto death.

Do not be afraid of the things which you are about to suffer. Look, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested; and you will have oppression for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. (Rev, 2:10)

When YOU believed.

It seems you want to let yourself out of that one for some reason. Your choice.

 

[mailmandan]

Salvation is not temporal nor are we personally and individually guaranteed salvation while we run the race. We are promised a crown of life, we are not guaranteed one. You want this to be true but the flow and form of the scriptures do not support such a notion. If the churches/bodies of Christ had to be warned of losing their place, how much more the individuals who make up the body of Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:21 - Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Corinthians 5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto/for the day of redemption.

Do not be fooled, even the most sincere faith can be lost.

Do not be fooled. Faith in "water and works" instead of faith in "Christ alone" for salvation is not sincere faith.

There are no guaranteed winners in a race, this is the very purpose Paul uses the analogy. Many will start the race but not all will finish. Not finishing does not mean they were never runners.

1 Corinthians 9:24, Paul said - Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? (Paul did not say many will start the race but not all will finish. That is your personal commentary). Run in such a way as to get the prize. (Is eternal life/salvation a prize or a gift? - Romans 5:15-18; 6:23; Ephesians 2:8). 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

That sounds like an Olympic race where all the runners run, but only one receives the gold medal. So all believers run the race, but only one receives eternal life? So what happens to the runners that receive the silver medal or bronze medal or finish the race with no medal? Are they disqualified from the Olympics or from the prize, receiving the gold medal? A prize is something that you work for and earn where a gift is something that you freely accept without merit:

Prize (brabeion) - the prize awarded to a victor, the reward (recognition) that follows triumph. That doesn't sound like a free gift (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8). 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 mentions - If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, (of reward) though he himself will be saved.

Without faith there can be no appeal for salvation. We are not allowed to claim the faith of others or of times past. God is not mocked, dieing faithless will spell doom for most. Only those who enter the day of judgement in faith will be granted the crown of life. Those who die without that faith will not be allowed to partake of the banquet. The five virgins who left to find oil were barred from entering the wedding, this did not make them non-virgins, just virgins who missed the wedding.

The wording of the five foolish virgins in our text is all too familiar to the reader of Matthew’s Gospel:

Matthew 25:11 - "Later, the other virgins came too, saying, ‘Lord, Lord! Let us in!’ 12 But he replied, ‘I tell you the truth, I do not know you!"

Matthew 7:21 - "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven" but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven - (See John 6:40). 22 On that day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons and do many powerful works?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ (Matthew 7:21-23)

Taking Matthew’s words literally, I read that the difference between the foolish virgins and the wise virgins: The wise virgins had oil for their lamps, while the foolish virgins did not. The wise virgins had the opportunity to obtain oil, and did so. The foolish virgins had plenty of opportunity to procure oil, but did not.

It is possible to be in close contact with Christ, and with Christians, and yet not be saved. I am reminded of a similar passage in the Gospel of Luke:

Luke 13:23 Someone asked him, "Lord, will only a few be saved?" So he said to them, 24 "Exert every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, then you will stand outside and start to knock on the door and beg him, ‘Lord, let us in!’ But he will answer you, ‘I don’t know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will reply, ‘I don’t know where you come from! Go away from me, all you evildoers!’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves thrown out. 29 Then people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and take their places at the banquet table in the kingdom of God. 30 But indeed, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last."

Jesus is warning us in this parable that there will be a number of people who look like Christians, who associate with Christians, and who even think they are Christians, yet they are trusting in works for salvation and will be shocked to learn that they are not saved at the return of our Lord. What a sobering thought!

OSAS is a mockery and attack on the cornerstone of salvation, faith unto death.

"Eternal security" of the believer or "preservation of the saints" is not a mockery or an attack on the cornerstone of salvation. Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. Jude 1:1 - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ.

Salvation "obtained" and "maintained" by works is a mockery and attack on the cornerstone of salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

Do not be afraid of the things which you are about to suffer. Look, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested; and you will have oppression for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. (Rev, 2:10)

If Revelation 2:10 teaches that we must be "faithful enough" in addition to placing our faith in Christ for salvation, then just "how faithful would you have to be?" Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you were "faithful enough" so now the Lord will be able to save you? That is vague and could include ANY number of good works.

This verse is meant to be an encouraging statement from the Lord to Christians at the church of Smyrna who were being persecuted, even to the point of death. Jesus was not telling these Christians that if they are not "faithful enough" in addition to having faith in Him for salvation that they will not receive eternal life. That is salvation by works! The Lord was telling them that they will receive the crown of life after death, be faithful, hang in there!

In the very next verse, Jesus said - "He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." 1 John 5:4, we read - "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

ONLY BELIEVERS are saved, overcome, and are faithful unto death (Ephesians 2:8; 1 Peter 1:9). Unbelievers are not saved, do not overcome and are unfaithful unto death.

I'll never forget many years ago, after leaving the so called church of Christ (that I had temporarily attended) I ran into a woman who still attended that church and she asked me why I left and have I remained faithful? Her definition of "remain faithful" was, "is still a member of that particular church and still holds to all of their beliefs."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:13b-14
​

I am coming to believe only those sealed and those who actually experienced the love of God in thier life can comprehend this basic spiritual truth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What LGF is pushing is a return to following the sabbath as outlined in the 10 Commandments. I do not agree with this reasoning since we live under the new covenant. But if his conscience will not allow him to see this I will not condemn him for it. On his actions towards others, it is on him to defend his beliefs properly with logic and scripture. If he is right we will be at fault, if not he will answer to God.

I do not not condemn the OSAS groups for their beliefs, I actually hope they are right. But scripture does not show this to be the case. I am sure many people who believe in OSAS are quite sincere, this error will not affect their salvation but it may give a false sense of assurance to many. An assurance that in the end will lead many to their doom.

You can not even get this right.

LGF is saying if we do not worship or hold the 7th day as commanded we are not saved. Ie, he is saying if you do not do this, your lost and headed to hell unless you repent. Do you agree with him? Is he not teaching a false gospel. Or do you agree with him?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Read what I wrote again, "nor are we personally and individually guaranteed salvation while we run the race."

Question: Who are the pronouns "you", "our" and "those" referring to?

Answer: "those who are God's possession."

Paul is writing in a general sense. Hence the use of pronouns. This verse cannot be used as a individual and personal guarantee but a broad pledge to all Christians who are faithful unto death.

Do not be afraid of the things which you are about to suffer. Look, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested; and you will have oppression for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. (Rev, 2:10)

remember this folks.

Eternal life does not mean eternal
Never die does not mean never
Never lost, does not mean never
Sealed by the spirit UNTIL ressurection day does not mean UNTIL
Justified does not mean justified
Never leave nor forsake us does not mean never.

God is a liar. But we should all put our HOPE (faith is the substance of things hoped for) in a god that can nto even keep his word.

Of course that is why they do not believe in eternal security, They base their HOPE on their deeds, or the faiht of their doing, on their ability to stand fast. Ie, their faith is in self. There is no hope in self. So they will NEVER believe in eternal security until they repent and LOSE faiht in self. And find faith in GOD.