How To Be Un-Saved

[Ralph-]

Well Chester. Aren't they STILL sheep even if they drift away? Do they morph then into a goat?

For corn's sake, Penn, it's a mataphor.
Do we 'sheep' need to be like actual sheep in every single aspect for John 10 to be true? Of course not. Take away what Jesus intended from the use of the metaphor and leave it at that.

And more importantly, doesn't Jesus say that He will leave the 99 to go and retrieve the ONE that wandered away?

Sometimes the one that wanders away gets devoured and there's nothing to bring back.

Many of us know of people who used to believe but who do not believe now, having been devoured by the enemy. There is no believer to bring back. Not everybody responds to God's call to come back to the safety of the pen.

 

[PennEd]

For corn's sake, Penn, it's a mataphor.
Do we 'sheep' need to be like actual sheep in every single aspect for John 10 to be true? Of course not. Take away what Jesus intended from the use of the metaphor and leave it at that.




Sometimes the one that wanders away gets devoured and there's nothing to bring back.

Many of us know of people who used to believe but who do not believe now, having been devoured by the enemy. There is no believer to bring back. Not everybody responds to God's call to come back to the safety of the pen.

It IS a metaphor Ralph. I think we all understand that.

So the sheep are Children of God. Born again. The goats are children of the devil. They have NEVER been born again.

Yes, sometimes the "sheep" Children of God can wander to the point of PHYSICAL death. But they FOREVER remain a Spiritual Child of God, they DO NOT morph into a child of the devil.

Just like OUR children will forever remain our children REGARDLESS of their behavior.

 

[LightLoveHope]

In this discussion the basis of it has to be questioned.
Once you say X represents a saved believer, this means they will make it to heaven.
If you say X represents the first step on the road to salvation, then you are saying
salvation is a journey. Only the Lord knows who will finish and is written in the Lambs
book of life.

So the premise of identifying the "saved" is not viable, when you have to say of this
group of enthusiastic followers, some will fall away, because they were never real.

Jesus says simply it is about change, how far the roots go down into ones heart,
and the start is the same for all. Now all listen to Jesus, until for some the root
is stopped and the limit declared in their life.

So Jesus promises His sheep about their attributes, but we will never know who is
real and who is not. But that is also the point, in love we treat all the same, no matter
who or what they are.

And His sheep obey Him and follow His ways. How is this hard to comprehend?
What concerns me, is those who close the door to Jesus, to forgiving others, to
letting go of sinful behaviour, to finding resolution to needs and hurts in their hearts.
And to pile terrible words of faithlessness, hypocracy, lying on top is truly sad.
Are you a sheep who hears Jesus talking to you, or is it just a game of passing
the faith mark, and then believing that is all there is?

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
Matt 5:3-5

We are all these things.

 

[Ralph-]

Those verses speak of the lost person. One who has not believed/placed their faith in Jesus. Because who among us doesn't get jealous, have fits of anger, isn't selfish, or envious, etc., at times?

"The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."-Galatians 5:19-21

Just as expected, you say Galatians 5:19-21 doesn't apply to you, even though you do 'live like this', because you're saying grace is your license to do that ('live like this') and still be saved. Yet you insist grace is not a license to sin. Hmm....doesn't add up.

We wouldn't inherit the Kingdom if any of our sins were attributed to us. But, praise God, Jesus paid for them - all of them. When God looks at one who has placed their faith in Jesus, He sees a sinless, righteous, holy, and perfect person, fit for the Kingdom. We have the very righteousness of Christ imputed to us.

We are as sinless as Jesus is, and will remain sinless as long as Jesus does.

Not true for the one who 'lives like this' in sexual immorality, impurity, debauchery, etc. Their lives show they do NOT have the righteousness of Christ applied to their account through the Holy Spirit.

Only those who don't 'live like this' through God's grace have the righteousness of Christ applied to their account. That's why they aren't 'living like this'. Get it? The person who lives in sin is not born again. Their bondage to sin being the evidence of their unbelief.


And whether or not they ever were born again is irrelevant. Either way, if you were never born again, or lost your salvation, if you are 'living in' sin when Jesus comes back you will NOT inherit the kingdom of God. Grace is NOT a license that makes it so you can 'live like this' and still inherit the kingdom of God. The person who thinks that has a much worse fate than the physical death required by the law awaiting them. They have the second death awaiting them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well Chester. Aren't they STILL sheep even if they drift away? Do they morph then into a goat? And more importantly, doesn't Jesus say that He will leave the 99 to go and retrieve the ONE that wandered away?

Yeah, We are his sheep. Then we are not his sheep. Who then do we belong to? Another Sheppard.

A sheep is alike a dog. They always know their masters voice. And when the master comes and calls. They excitedly go to greet the master. What they do not do. Even if the sheep got lost. And started following another master, If the true master comes. The sheep never forgets.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It IS a metaphor Ralph. I think we all understand that.

So the sheep are Children of God. Born again. The goats are children of the devil. They have NEVER been born again.

Yes, sometimes the "sheep" Children of God can wander to the point of PHYSICAL death. But they FOREVER remain a Spiritual Child of God, they DO NOT morph into a child of the devil.

Just like OUR children will forever remain our children REGARDLESS of their behavior.

They can not buy into this, because it removes them from the equation. Pride will not allow it./

 

[Ralph-]

It IS a metaphor Ralph. I think we all understand that.

So the sheep are Children of God. Born again. The goats are children of the devil. They have NEVER been born again.

Yes, sometimes the "sheep" Children of God can wander to the point of PHYSICAL death. But they FOREVER remain a Spiritual Child of God, they DO NOT morph into a child of the devil.

Just like OUR children will forever remain our children REGARDLESS of their behavior.

You're still doing it. You're stretching the analogy/metaphor beyond reason. You're being unreasonable. Where do we stop the metaphor if not at where Jesus left it? It's useful for the point Jesus was making, and no more. Don't add to what Jesus was saying. Leave it be.


By the way, why did the sinning fellow at Corinth have to die physically "so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord"-1 Corinthians 5:5, if as you all insist he was already irreversibly saved?

Notice, Paul is not saying he has to die as punishment for being bad. He's plainly saying he must die to the flesh so that he can be saved when Jesus comes back. Something has to happen so he can be saved when Jesus came back. He must die to the flesh in order to be saved when Jesus comes back. But you people are saying he is merely being punished for sinning. That's not what it says.

 

[Ralph-]

Yes, sometimes the "sheep" Children of God can wander to the point of PHYSICAL death.

Oh, and just so you know, Paul is saying he must die to the flesh, not die physically. The matter being spoken of here is salvation, not punishment for sin.

You must be born again in a crucifying of the flesh through faith in Jesus to be saved in preparation for the return of Jesus. Physical death does not make you saved and ready to meet Jesus when he returns. Paul said this death has to occur so that this sinning person can be saved. So we know he's not talking about physical death.

Physical death does not secure anyone's salvation. Only spiritual crucifixion of the flesh by the Holy Spirit through faith in Christ makes it so you will be "saved on the day of the Lord"-1 Corinthians 5:5. That is the 'death of the flesh' that this sinning fellow had to be turned over to so that he will be saved when Jesus comes back.

 

[Deade]

...Or they were not strong believers and had shallow roots and fell away.


“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away."-Luke 8:13


“The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away."-Matthew 13:20-21


Only the 4th type of soil has the word deeply rooted in it and endures to the end in a mature fruitfulness.


“But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.”-Luke 8:15


Strive to become a 4th type of soil believer with an honest and good heart where you have a deep 'knowing', mature relationship with God from which you will not fall away and in which you endure to the very end in salvation. Only 4th type of soil believers have any boast of not falling away. They are the ones who know Christ and who can not be swayed. Those who never know him this way are the ones who can fall away.

Well Ralph-, the parable of the sower is talking about the word of God falling in unfavorable places. This is not the Holy Spirit. The receiving of the HS is probably rarer than we think. Once God gives us His Spirit, we won't stop believing.

 

[Ralph-]

When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:13b-14
​

YES! As long as you have the Holy Spirit through faith in Christ you do indeed have the guarantee that you will enter into the inheritance. If you stop believing and go back to the world you will lose that which guarantees your entrance into the kingdom.

 

[Katy-follower]

Those verses speak of the lost person. One who has not believed/placed their faith in Jesus. Because who among us doesn't get jealous, have fits of anger, isn't selfish, or envious, etc., at times?

We wouldn't inherit the Kingdom if any of our sins were attributed to us. But, praise God, Jesus paid for them - all of them. When God looks at one who has placed their faith in Jesus, He sees a sinless, righteous, holy, and perfect person, fit for the Kingdom. We have the very righteousness of Christ imputed to us.

We are as sinless as Jesus is, and will remain sinless as long as Jesus does.

There is a difference between a sin that a believer commits because they slip up (like anger for example) versus the ones Ralph mentions, which are lifestyle/habitual sins which are said to be committed by the unrighteous (1 Cor 6:9-11), therefore those who are not saved. Ralph - it's only the unrighteous that will not inherit the Kingdom.

I guess my childhood pastor would be a good example. He committed adultery with a woman in the congregation. He gave in to a temptation and it was a one-night affair (still does not make it right), but the difference is a non believer who has no conviction of their sins may think nothing of it and would probably even continue on with the affair, which then it would be habitual, evidence they are not saved, as corinthians states. But yes, my pastor was chastised for what he did and even stepped down as pastor. I also witnessed someone in the church who was a stumbling block and that person died, which I believe with the timing God was moving them out of the way.

 

[PennEd]

You're still doing it. You're stretching the analogy/metaphor beyond reason. You're being unreasonable. Where do we stop the metaphor if not at where Jesus left it? It's useful for the point Jesus was making, and no more. Don't add to what Jesus was saying. Leave it be.


By the way, why did the sinning fellow at Corinth have to die physically "so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord"-1 Corinthians 5:5, if as you all insist he was already irreversibly saved?

Notice, Paul is not saying he has to die as punishment for being bad. He's plainly saying he must die to the flesh so that he can be saved when Jesus comes back. Something has to happen so he can be saved when Jesus came back. He must die to the flesh in order to be saved when Jesus comes back. But you people are saying he is merely being punished for sinning. That's not what it says.

I'm not stretching anything. Are not sheep synonymous to Children of God in Scripture? We can stop right here if you disagree. No sense arguing with what I view to not having spiritual discernment.

 

[Katy-follower]

But Humans can break the agreement through coming to a state of disbelief in the Words of Jesus and the Atonement He secured...

We don't lose our salvation as such.. But we can and do throw it away....

If you are shown the sky is blue, how do you reach that state of unbelief to where you believe it's actually green?

A believer does not go back to spiritual blindness once their eyes are open.

 

[PennEd]

There is a difference between a sin that a believer commits because they slip up (like anger for example) versus the ones Ralph mentions, which are lifestyle/habitual sins which are said to be committed by the unrighteous (1 Cor 6:9-11), therefore those who are not saved. Ralph - it's only the unrighteous that will not inherit the Kingdom.

I guess my childhood pastor would be a good example. He committed adultery with a woman in the congregation. He gave in to a temptation and it was a one-night affair (still does not make it right), but the difference is a non believer who has no conviction of their sins may think nothing of it and would probably even continue on with the affair, which then it would be habitual, evidence they are not saved, as corinthians states. But yes, my pastor was chastised for what he did and even stepped down as pastor. I also witnessed someone in the church who was a stumbling block and that person died, which I believe with the timing God was moving them out of the way.

Although I certainly agree with you that a true believer will experience some type of conviction and discipline over sinful behavior, I think we need to be VERY careful in trying to parse "willful" sin, with garden variety momentary sin.

The more we become aware of God's perfection, the more we should become aware of just how imperfect and sinful we are, and just be in awe that He still died for us and loves us.

These are just a tiny examples of "willing" sin we commit every day.

We haven't sold everything we have and given it to God. Every day we don't do that we are not perfect and are sinning.

We get mad at people to different degrees every day. Every time we get mad at someone we are not perfect and sin willfully.

We don't love our neighbor, and our enemy ALL THE TIME EVERY DAY. Whenever we don't love someone we sin willfully.

When we just glance at a person with lust we sin.

Jesus says we must be perfect just like God in Heaven.

I could go on but you get the point. This idea of willful vs. regular, every day sin should never be a barometer that we try and judge someone else with.

 

[Chester]

Chester wrote: (post 318)

If you begin with the first question that DJ2 asks: Who are the sheep?

Verse 27 gives the simple answer from the text (John 10)

ta probata ta ema tes phones mou akouousin, kago ginosko auta, kai akolouthousin moi

The sheep of me the voice of me are hearing, and I am knowing them, and they are following me.
(My sheep are hearing my voice, and I am knowing them, and they are following me.)

When verse 27 is fulfilled and is happening, then what verses 28 and 29 say is always true of these sheep. If verse 27 is not happening - that is, a person is not hearing and is not following, then the promises of verses 28 and verse 29 do not apply.

It is that simple; exactly as the text says it​

: How in the world does anyone get "once saved always saved" out of John 10:27-29???????????????​

Well Chester. Aren't they STILL sheep even if they drift away? Do they morph then into a goat? And more importantly, doesn't Jesus say that He will leave the 99 to go and retrieve the ONE that wandered away?

PennEd: I 'm not sure how to try to argue with an analogy about still being sheep or morphing into a goat, nor do I understand how leaving the 99 to find the one lost one enters in here??

All I am trying to do is read and understand the text and take it at face value:

Verse 37 says the sheep are hearing Jesus' voice, and He is knowing them and they are following Him.

(I know that this is true of me: I have no doubts about it! I believe in Christ and I am listening to His voice - not perfectly, of course, but He looks at me heart. And He knows me: Hallelujah! Others may misunderstand and laugh at me, but Jesus really knows me at a deep level. And I am following Jesus - there is no one else in all the world who I will let take His place: I am following and will follow Him!

Now when I read verses 38,39 I (a sheep) have these promises: He is giving to me eternal life, and I will never perish, and no man will pluck me out of His hand

 

[Depleted]

Whosoever believeth. Present tense. It doesn’t say “whosoever believed” or “hath believed”.
Believeth. The day a man doesn’t believe that man shall perish.
Might be saved. Depends on whether a man keeps his faith.
The day a man believeth not, he is condemned.
So, as long as a man doesn’t choke off the flow he enters into everlasting life. Abide in Christ. Remain in Jesus. Saints aren’t prisoners.
He that believeth. Not, he that believed. And see that you must believeth on Jesus present tense to never thirst. So, a man must abide in the vine as in abide in the body of Christ. If a man doesn’t abide he withers away and is cast into the fire.

Every man’s faith is tried. If the man quits his faith he burns.

Grammar thingy brought to you from way too much Latin classes.

Believeth is present perfect, not present tense. Big difference.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Chester wrote: (post 318)

If you begin with the first question that DJ2 asks: Who are the sheep?

Verse 27 gives the simple answer from the text (John 10)

ta probata ta ema tes phones mou akouousin, kago ginosko auta, kai akolouthousin moi

The sheep of me the voice of me are hearing, and I am knowing them, and they are following me.
(My sheep are hearing my voice, and I am knowing them, and they are following me.)

When verse 27 is fulfilled and is happening, then what verses 28 and 29 say is always true of these sheep. If verse 27 is not happening - that is, a person is not hearing and is not following, then the promises of verses 28 and verse 29 do not apply.

It is that simple; exactly as the text says it​

: How in the world does anyone get "once saved always saved" out of John 10:27-29???????????????​

PennEd: I 'm not sure how to try to argue with an analogy about still being sheep or morphing into a goat, nor do I understand how leaving the 99 to find the one lost one enters in here??

All I am trying to do is read and understand the text and take it at face value:

Verse 37 says the sheep are hearing Jesus' voice, and He is knowing them and they are following Him.

(I know that this is true of me: I have no doubts about it! I believe in Christ and I am listening to His voice - not perfectly, of course, but He looks at me heart. And He knows me: Hallelujah! Others may misunderstand and laugh at me, but Jesus really knows me at a deep level. And I am following Jesus - there is no one else in all the world who I will let take His place: I am following and will follow Him!

Now when I read verses 38,39 I (a sheep) have these promises: He is giving to me eternal life, and I will never perish, and no man will pluck me out of His hand

Well we could take it that way, Or we could take it as spoken, and as the example would show. And when the shepherd comes. HIS sheep hear his voice. The ones who are not do not hear his voice. The ones who hear his voice. Follow him.


I think some people just read to much into it.

if a shepherd when looking for a lost sheep. And he called out to it, His sheep would hear his voice and follow. It would be written the exact same way it is written in scripture.

 

[Katy-follower]

It IS a metaphor Ralph. I think we all understand that.

So the sheep are Children of God. Born again. The goats are children of the devil. They have NEVER been born again.

Yes, sometimes the "sheep" Children of God can wander to the point of PHYSICAL death. But they FOREVER remain a Spiritual Child of God, they DO NOT morph into a child of the devil.

Just like OUR children will forever remain our children REGARDLESS of their behavior.

Reminds me of the scriptures that confirm believers are no longer enemies.

Romans 5:8-11: "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation"

 

[Depleted]

Hi Bill,

What is being shared is that SIN will keep all those who practice it out of God's KINGDOM. If your FAITH does not have the FRUIT of OBEDIENCE then you are still in your SINS. We are not saved by what we do but by faith in BELIEVING God's WORD alowing Christ to WORK in us to do of HIS own good pleasure.

As the scriptures say if your tree has no fruit it will be cast down and thrown into the fire because your faith is dead (Matthew 7:12-23; James2:18-20; 26)

SIN is breaking GOd's Commandments not following God's Word through FAITH that works by LOVE is UNBELIEF in God's WORD. This is SIN and KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN will keep all those who practice it OUT of God's KINGDOM come judgement day.

.................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

^ ^ ^
gobbledygook

That's not what was share or is being shared. That is the gobbledygook you made of it.

Thus... gobbledygook!

Capiche?

 

[Nehemiah6]

YES! As long as you have the Holy Spirit through faith in Christ you do indeed have the guarantee that you will enter into the inheritance. If you stop believing and go back to the world you will lose that which guarantees your entrance into the kingdom.

You seem to be forgetting the supernatural New Birth and its irreversible consequences. Since those who are born again are "new creatures in Christ" they cannot be unborn, just as no baby can return to his mother's womb. Once they become children of God, they cannot be orphaned either.

Believers don't "stop" believing on Christ and His finished work of redemption, and you will not find that in Scripture, However the saints can and do sin, and God deals with those sins unless the saint himself deals with it. That is why Christians are reminded to examine themselves, particularly before partaking of the Lord's Supper. Those who persist in sin can and will die prematurely, since "there is a sin unto death" for believers.