How To Be Un-Saved

[Katy-follower]

I agree with that bit in red. The apostates are like their father, the devil. The book of Jude confirms they don't have the Holy Spirit. Just like Cain, who was an apostate of old, they are non believers.

One end times Antichrist (man of sin) and several antichrists in the world. "They came out from among us but were not of us" (1 John 2:19)... because they are of the world, not of God. We know that believers are no longer of the world, as we've been taken out of it. The "of" is significant there.

Believers are no longer enemies, and no longer condemned. I don't see any scriptures that say believers go back to being tares, goats, enemies, and named antichrists? You're either in God's family or you're lost in the world.

By the way, I highlighted those letters incase anyone reads this and gets confused between the two (was not for you, as I know you know the difference).

1 John 2:18-27:

"Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. But you (believers) have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.


Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life. These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

 

[Katy-follower]

For the last few days I've come in and simply read the posts on this thread and "Not By Works". The more I read, the sadder I became. It is absolutely heartbreaking to see the modern day Pharisees and Judaizers trying relentlessly to drag people back to Moses.

WHY can't they understand that for the Christian, the sin issue is over. For the Christian, the Law has no hold on us, and is, in fact, DEAD.

I just can't understand why these people love their chains so much!

I think we're just getting a taste of it. Imagine how much worse it will get towards the end, when it feels like we're outnumbered? (The many versus the few).

Sometimes it's tempting to not engage in some of the threads, because no matter what you share there will be those that reject it when they favor their view over the scriptures (see my signature), but I post anyway because I love the truth, so I feel I need to protect it, and I know I'm not the only one that feels this way. Think too of the ones that read the threads that might get led astray. But don't we all end up searching the scriptures more as a result, like the Bereans, so it's a good thing

Hope you come back here soon!

 

[Katy-follower]

At the same time, I wonder if some hearts get harder each time?

Like, when I read the endless sabbath posts, with the same messages over and over, I wonder if responding will just make things worse for a person?... if one is constantly flighting you on things and continually rejecting truth so much that they may get harder as a result?

Dust off the shoes too?

 

[Ralph-]

Can someone tell me what the difference is between;

1. ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED and 2. HYPERGRACE?

Thanks for your help. Sorry for my ignorance here...

Once saved always saved is the 'P' in TULIP, the traditional Calvinist teaching. It says the truly saved person is signified by a change of life, and persevering to the very end in that change of life.

Hypergrace agrees with the once saved always saved part but discards the part about obedience and persevering to the very end as the inevitable sign of being saved. It reasons that since salvation is not by works they have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you are saved. They signify nothing (except perhaps that obedience signifies you're trying to work your way to heaven). It even argues that a person could go back to stone cold unbelief and they are still saved and will inherit the kingdom when Jesus comes back. Traditional once saved always saved (the 'P' in TULIP) says the fact that they did not continue to believe shows they were never really saved to begin with.


The odd part about this is, even though adherents to these two doctrines are fundamentally opposed to each other, they welcome each other and defend each other's doctrines, even though they are miles apart and contradict each other severely.

 

[Ralph-]

Amen! Notice that in verses 2-3, we see a distinction between "us" who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and "them" who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

*Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers.
​

You're projecting your Calvinist presupposition onto the text.

You instantly think these can't be true believers, and never have been, because they are drifting back to unbelief and away from reliance on Christ. Your predetermined doctrine is locking you out from considering that the plain words of scripture are showing us that these are saved people who are at risk of falling away from a genuine faith in Christ and therefore won't be saved anymore.

 

[Ralph-]

Yes. Someone who believes they can lose salvation probably can lose it.

Salvation, to them, is something they achieved through their own wisdom and their own understanding. That will always fail.

And I believe that is exactly how you see it, and the only way you can see it.

You along with many others seem absolutely incapable of understanding that the argument is salvation is something achieved through believing and trusting in Christ, and if you stop believing and trusting in Christ you lose that which believing and trusting in Christ secures for you. That's not even remotely a works gospel since believing is not a work of the works gospel.

Someone who tells you that you cannot lose your salvation is in the MIDST of belief. They believe in the Power of the Lord.

The person who says you cannot lose your salvation but who lives unchanged in his old life is in the midst of unbelief. They are in hypocrisy. They are not in the power of the Lord in salvation. Their life shows they do not know the Lord in salvation. No insistence that once you are saved you can not lose your salvation will make it so they are saved in their disobedient, unrepentant life.

Someone who tells you that you can lose your salvation is in the MIDST of unbelief. They don't believe in the Power of the Lord.

Listen to yourself. You're saying that those who think that you must believe and not stop believing in order to be saved are in the midst of unbelief. Even Calvinist say you have to keep believing to the very end to be saved in the very end.

Sometimes you have to be careful what you listen to and especially what you hear. Is it of faith?

The ironic thing being is you yourself have not been listening. You have not listened to and understood the argument you resist. You're only able to hear the argument that 'you must continue to believe to be saved' as 'you must continue to work for your salvation to be saved'. You and many others are the ones who have not been careful to listen.

 

[Ralph-]

For the Christian, the Law has no hold on us, and is, in fact, DEAD.

I just can't understand why these people love their chains so much!

The problem is you do not understand that the law having no hold on Christians means it can not hold us in the bondage of sin anymore. You don't realize that it is actually obedience that signifies that a person is no longer under the bondage of the law.

When the law arouses and provokes sin in a person, that means they are still unsaved and in the flesh.

When the law arouses and provokes obedience in a person that shows that they are saved and in the Spirit.

 

[LoveGodForever]

At the same time, I wonder if some hearts get harder each time? Like, when I read the endless sabbath posts, with the same messages over and over, I wonder if responding will just make things worse for a person?... if one is constantly flighting you on things and continually rejecting truth so much that they may get harder as a result? Dust off the shoes too?

We are free to BELIEVE or NOT BELIEVE the WORD of God. No one judges you and you are free to do and BELIEVE as you wish.

You are only accountable to God come judgement day. The word of God we reject or BELIEVE will be our judge for us or against us at this time.

If we break one we are guitly of breaking ALL (James 2:8-12)

John 12
47, And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48, He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Seek him while he may be found call upon him while he is near, tomorrow may be too late. We only have today.

ALL who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN WILL be LOST and NOT Enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

.................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

 

[mailmandan]

You're projecting your Calvinist presupposition onto the text.

You instantly think these can't be true believers, and never have been, because they are drifting back to unbelief and away from reliance on Christ. Your predetermined doctrine is locking you out from considering that the plain words of scripture are showing us that these are saved people who are at risk of falling away from a genuine faith in Christ and therefore won't be saved anymore.

Says you, but I don't buy it. It's you who is reading your preconceived doctrine into the text.

 

[Budman]

The problem is you do not understand that the law having no hold on Christians means it can not hold us in the bondage of sin anymore. You don't realize that it is actually obedience that signifies that a person is no longer under the bondage of the law.

When the law arouses and provokes sin in a person, that means they are still unsaved and in the flesh.

When the law arouses and provokes obedience in a person that shows that they are saved and in the Spirit.

What is sin? Sin is transgression of the Law.

As usual, you completely gloss over the fact Christians have no sin to be accountable for.

None, Ralph. Not a single one.

So, what is this sin you keep harping on about?

And as far as obedience goes - are you perfectly obedient?

Let me help you with that - no, no you are not. If you want to add obedience as a sign you are saved, and if one sin accountable to us means we are lost and going to hell, you'd better have your relatives pack a ton of aloe vera in your coffin when you die.

Because, yet again, name one good work a saved person can do that a lost person can't.

 

[Nehemiah6]

This part in red.......is the author speaking directly to saved individuals, or is he talking to sinners?

While we know that the epistle to the Hebrews is not written to a particular church, it is written to a particular group. In any and all of the NT churches (just as in any and all evangelical churches today) there would be genuine Christians as well as those who called themselves Christians but were only professing to be so. This is equally applicable to Hebrews, and from the verses quoted Paul is admonishing the Hebrew Christians to make sure that there are no unbelievers among them. If they were all genuine believers, there would be no need for that warning. Furthermore only God knows the hearts, so while letters were written to the churches with the presumption that all were Christians, we know from several epistles that that was not really the case. Galatians is a good example where there were Judaizers seeking to mislead Christians. Then we have the letters to the seven churches in Revelation.

 

[mailmandan]

I don't believe your first sentence is justified, and certainly not the extreme position you have taken.

We know from Scripture itself that within the apostolic churches there were genuine believers as well as mere professors. Indeed the letters to the seven churches make it clear that there were even apostates and false apostles within the local assemblies.

The writer to the Hebrews (which I believe is Paul) was also conscious of this when he said: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. (Heb 12:15,16).

To make it even clearer we can take the Holman Christian Standard Bible for a more current presentation:Make sure that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no root of bitterness springs up, causing trouble and by it, defiling many. And make sure that there isn't any immoral or irreverent person like Esau, who sold his birthright in exchange for one meal.

So where is the eisegesis in suggesting that there could have been some unsaved individuals included in this group?

You hit the nail on the head! As you pointed out in Hebrews 12:15 - Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God.. (KJV). The NIV says - ..falls short of the grace of God. The NASB says - ..comes short of the grace of God. The ESV says - ..fails to obtain the grace of God.

Within churches there are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers. The same goes for Bible discussion/Christian forums as well.

1 John 2:1 is addressing the letter to "My little children" and again in verse 18. Verse 7 starts out with "Brethren," yet in verse 19, we read - "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; (interesting! IF THEY HAD BEEN OF US, THEY WOULD HAVE CONTINUED WITH US) but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."

Now are we to assume that because the letter is written to "my little children/brethren" (believers) that those who went out FROM US but were NOT OF US were also believers? Of course not.

 

[Budman]

Hi Bill,

Sin is the transgression of God's LAW (James 2:9-11; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; 7:7) If we break any of God's Commandments then we stand guilty before God of committing SIN.

Those who continue in KNOWN UNREPETNANT SIN the bible says will NOT enter the kingdom of HEAVEN.

ONCE SAVED AWLAYS SAVED teached regardless of practicing SIN you will still enter the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

I do not think you believe this Bill just to be clear.

Either all sins were covered (forgiven) at the cross, or none of them were.

The problem with the NOSAS folks is they look at the amount of sin in a believers life. They're like Goldilocks looking at the three bowls of (sin) porridge. A little shows you're saved (and holier than most), too much shows you're not - but then there's the theoretical "just right" amount.

People like you can't understand that if we have a single solitary sin attributed to us, we are LOST, LOST, LOST!

You WILL still sin after conversion - and those sins have ALREADY been covered, forgiven, and thrown as far as the east is from the west. That "oh, you'd better not have any unrepented sin" nonsense is just that - NONSENSE!

At the moment of conversion, ALL sins, past, present, and future, were forgiven and FORGOTTEN by God.

Now that we are children of God, He will chasten us to correct any errant behavior, even to the point of taking one home before their time, but we can NEVER be condemned and lost for sins we no longer have - including those committed in the future!

We can't lose salvation because it's a gift, unearned, unmerited, and will always be so. And you can't offer it back to God because our salvation isn't held by us, it's held by Christ - and He will NOT take it back.

 

[Speak2Me]

Your first selection of scripture is referring to an "unbeliever" not a "saved person".
Your second selection in scripture is referring to "self analyzation" of each person that hopes to serve God.
Your third scripture is concerning the disciples not straying from serving Jesus not necessarily salvation but particularly servitude despite being informed that others will treat them as if they do wrong.

Your post says nothing because it proved nothing.

Like I said, you fit in nicely with yer buddies.

 

[Speak2Me]

Says you, but I don't buy it. It's you who is reading your preconceived doctrine into the text.

Oh, and because you said so, then it must be.

Nice display of evidence.......not.

 

[Speak2Me]

While we know that the epistle to the Hebrews is not written to a particular church, it is written to a particular group. In any and all of the NT churches (just as in any and all evangelical churches today) there would be genuine Christians as well as those who called themselves Christians but were only professing to be so. This is equally applicable to Hebrews, and from the verses quoted Paul is admonishing the Hebrew Christians to make sure that there are no unbelievers among them. If they were all genuine believers, there would be no need for that warning. Furthermore only God knows the hearts, so while letters were written to the churches with the presumption that all were Christians, we know from several epistles that that was not really the case. Galatians is a good example where there were Judaizers seeking to mislead Christians. Then we have the letters to the seven churches in Revelation.

[/SIZE]

Why don't you go ahead & completely cross over to the other side so that others won't be confused with yer posts?

I've known for a while you were already.

If yer gonna teach it, you need to confess it.

If yer gonna talk like you have a backbone, at least act like you have one.

 

[Speak2Me]

What is sin? Sin is transgression of the Law.

As usual, you completely gloss over the fact Christians have no sin to be accountable for.

None, Ralph. Not a single one.

So, what is this sin you keep harping on about?

And as far as obedience goes - are you perfectly obedient?

Let me help you with that - no, no you are not. If you want to add obedience as a sign you are saved, and if one sin accountable to us means we are lost and going to hell, you'd better have your relatives pack a ton of aloe vera in your coffin when you die.

Because, yet again, name one good work a saved person can do that a lost person can't.

1. Study the word of God. Sinners can't do that because God's word is spiritually discerned.

 

[Budman]

1. Study the word of God. Sinners can't do that because God's word is spiritually discerned.

The lost certainly can study the word of God. Even Satan knows the scriptures. And if you're going to use that as an example of a "work" then why can't Christians agree on so many things regarding scripture?

Is it just you and your pals who have "understanding and discernment"?

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

You hit the nail on the head! As you pointed out in Hebrews 12:15 - Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God.. (KJV). The NIV says - ..falls short of the grace of God. The NASB says - ..comes short of the grace of God. The ESV says - ..fails to obtain the grace of God.

But you can't use that logic with Nehemiah 6 because he believes all those translations are "poison" and are not the true Word of God.

But something is definitely wrong with you in trying to defend modern versions.

This is the attitude to OTHER BIBLE PERVERSIONS that is perfectly valid. If you had ten bottles labeled as "TONICS" but nine of them actually contained various levels of poison, it would be your duty to let people know that they are not all tonics.

 

[mailmandan]

Oh, and because you said so, then it must be.

Nice display of evidence.......not.

I already shared evidence with him, but I guess you missed it.