How To Be Un-Saved

[preston39]

This verse can be extremely confusing to someone. But fallen away means to lose belief, and we already know that Paul has stated, IF it were possible, well, once we are saved, we do NOT lose that belief. If one were to lose that belief, they were not saved to begin with

M......,

There is miss understanding of repentance and saved;

When we repent, here on earth our status is...repented.
When G-d passes judgement on us after death..we are saved...and no one can take it away from us.

If we say we are saved while alive here on earth then G-d has no power to condemn us upon His review of our righteous life while on this earth. That's non sense.

What is the appearance before the judgement seat of G-d for?

The Bible tells us in many ways that we can loose our repented status...including the loss of the 5 crowns that we could be awarded.

 

[joefizz]

What a horribly insecure gospel. You can't know if you really believe and are saved until you exhaust all opportunities to find out if you're going to keep believing. That means you won't know if you're really saved until you die. And people say that's the doctrine of security and assurance. IOW, you can't know if you'll persevere to the very end (showing yourself to be saved) until you persevere to the very end.

How is that "insecure"?
Instead of rattling ones head trying to figure forever"am I saved"?,"Am I saved today"? "Am I saved tomorrow"?
sounds more like an "Anxiety complex" that you have instead of any "Gospel" as for the rest of us I suppose we will "keep our faith" in the "solid foundation" of Jesus Christ not some "wishy washy" banters.

 

[joefizz]

No, I haven't fallen away, but that doesn't mean anything in your doctrine. There is still tomorrow to see if I'll fall away proving that I was never saved all along. And people call that the doctrine of security and assurance.

See, in the doctrine I believe, you are saved as long as you are believing. And your life shows whether or not you are really believing. Pretty simple.....and secure. Just keep believing and you have all the promises of God and no one can take them away from you.

hmmm "simple" and "secure"huh?
waking up every day thinking "will I no longer believe"? "I hope I will keep believing","I must keep believing" "I can't trust Jesus that I will continually believe in him because that would mean making a commitment".

 

[joefizz]

Seriously it's still strange how some that say they "know Jesus" believe they might "forget to believe in Jesus" and then call that faith,"secure" I just woke up not too long ago and I still believe in and upon Jesus so why can't others?

 

[Ralph-]

How is that "insecure"?

It's insecure in that you won't know if you keep believing to the very end (showing yourself to be really saved) until you get to the very end.

Instead of rattling ones head trying to figure forever"am I saved"?,"Am I saved today"? "Am I saved tomorrow"?
sounds more like an "Anxiety complex" that you have instead of any "Gospel"

It's not rattling one's head to try to figure out if you're saved or not, unless you have no change of life to validate your salvation. then you should be examining yourself to see if you're in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5).

You see people who do not live for Christ are the ones who can not have assurance of their salvation. They are the one's who should be anxious about whether or not they are really saved but the church is teaching them to ignore that and tells them they are saved no matter how they live. They are told since salvation is not by works it doesn't matter if you live for Christ or not, it proves nothing and shows nothing either way about whether or not you are really saved. Well, that's not what the Bible says.

as for the rest of us I suppose we will "keep our faith" in the "solid foundation" of Jesus Christ not some "wishy washy" banters.

So in other words you're going to do what I said to do-you're going to keep believing. Good, that's what you must do in order to continue to be saved. If you want to think you'll always keep believing that's fine too. Perhaps one day a difficult challenge in life will prove otherwise. That's what happened to soil #2.


You know if you have believed in Christ's forgiveness and are still believing in it by if you are living for him or not. But the church is not telling people that today. They say just as long as somewhere in the past you said you believe it doesn't matter now how you are living, it means nothing.

 

[preston39]

.....

If you stop believing, then you demonstrate that your faith was never firmly rooted and established in Christ from the start. Temporary, shallow belief that has no root is not saving belief. ....

m...,

This is not based on scripture.

So what is the purpose of this statement?

 

[PennEd]

And why people think they can pick and chose which scriptures to believe and which to ignore boggles my mind.

But it's going to make me rich!

Agreed. So STOP ignoring Scripture!

And as far as being rich, YOU, are already among the wealthiest citizens on the planet! Imagine the stench in God's nose from those who are NEVER hungry, and are fabulously rich compared to others, constantly complain about what they have.

 

[Magenta]

If you stop believing, then you demonstrate that your faith was never firmly rooted and established in Christ from the start. Temporary, shallow belief that has no root is not saving belief. ....

m...,

This is not based on scripture.

So what is the purpose of this statement?

Yes, preston, it IS based on Scripture! See 1 John 2:19

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. ​

 

[Magenta]

M......,

There is miss understanding of repentance and saved;

When we repent, here on earth our status is...repented.
When G-d passes judgement on us after death..we are saved...and no one can take it away from us.

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God
so that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13
(Knowing we have eternal life means we know we are saved already.)

For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of
imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 1 Peter 1:23

My salvation is of an imperishable seed. Isn't yours?

 

[joefizz]

It's insecure in that you won't know if you keep believing to the very end (showing yourself to be really saved) until you get to the very end.
-Nope not wishy washy I "actually" believe" instead of "doubting my faith" as you do.-



It's not rattling one's head to try to figure out if you're saved or not, unless you have no change of life to validate your salvation. then you should be examining yourself to see if you're in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5).
-It's called "doubt" and "insecurity" if you never are "sure" you are saved then you "never will be saved".-
You see people who do not live for Christ are the ones who can not have assurance of their salvation. They are the one's who should be anxious about whether or not they are really saved but the church is teaching them to ignore that and tells them they are saved no matter how they live. They are told since salvation is not by works it doesn't matter if you live for Christ or not, it proves nothing and shows nothing either way about whether or not you are really saved. Well, that's not what the Bible says.
-I don't even really have a church I go to and listen to intently though I'm still a permanent member of one church and I don't know where you get the "live any way you want" crock but that's your issue I don't promote it,though I know that salvation isn't taken away nor lost,only doubt "before" the possibility of salvation can occur when one first hears God's word or before "Full commitment" to Jesus.-


So in other words you're going to do what I said to do-you're going to keep believing. Good, that's what you must do in order to continue to be saved. If you want to think you'll always keep believing that's fine too. Perhaps one day a difficult challenge in life will prove otherwise. That's what happened to soil #2.
-No I anticipated your reaction to "keeping faith" so as to "catch your attention" when of course what I meant is to "not alter one's faith" to anything or anyone only Jesus because that is how one can become "mixed up" for only satan profits from anyone "trusting" that they can lose salvation thereby "opposed to salvation in action" yet "desiring salvation in principle" yet not "accepting it " by "doubting it".-

You know if you have believed in Christ's forgiveness and are still believing in it by if you are living for him or not. But the church is not telling people that today. They say just as long as somewhere in the past you said you believe it doesn't matter now how you are living, it means nothing.

first time trying this^^^^^^^ kind of talking.... all double -s are Joefizz.

 

[Ralph-]

-Nope not wishy washy I "actually" believe" instead of "doubting my faith" as you do.-

You do not know if you'll keep believing to the very end (and so show that you are a real believer) until you get to the very end. That's why your doctrine offers no assurance of salvation. You can't know if you have genuine faith until you see if you kept believing all your life. You can't know that what you think is genuine believing today really is genuine until the end of your life when all opportunities for your faith to be tested have been exhausted. And that's supposed to be the doctrine of security and assurance.

In my doctrine, you are saved as long as you are trusting in the blood of Christ, no question about it. Believing = salvation, period. No waiting to see if your believing is really fake believing, because you already know if it is fake or not by if you are a new creation who is living different than before you started to believe.

 

[mailmandan]

If you stop believing, then you demonstrate that your faith was never firmly rooted and established in Christ from the start. Temporary, shallow belief that has no root is not saving belief. ....

m...,

This is not based on scripture.

So what is the purpose of this statement?

See post #799.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Security - the enemies secret excuse for sin

Is sin really evil and destructive? Does death follow where sinful deeds take place?
Yes.

When I have a real friendship, sometimes the fear of losing it destroys it because I
must break the friendship so I am not hurt if they break it first.

When I have a friend who I know who is consistent, reliable, predictable, always there
and understands me, I have no fear and know the relationship will not fail because
neither of us has failed.

So in reality the strength of a relationship is based on knowledge and consistency.

Once I believe I am safe in a relationship and can abuse the other party, I become
an exploiter and the relationship does not really exist, it is just abuse.

What we learn from relationships, security is founded on consistency of behavior,
not security. It is security alone that leads to abuse.

Consistency leads to knowing the relationship is alive and real, even when years
pass between times of contact, still the reality remains.

So with the Lord, if we consistently rebel, abuse, do not listen, or follow His will
or commands, we are abusing Him and He will reject us. There is no security here
only delusion and desire, for something we know is impossible.

He declares if we walk consistently in His ways, listen to Him, have faith in Him
we will find oneness with Him and eternal life. Now that is real security, real
life, real eternity.

Security on its own destroys.

 

[Grandpa]

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Mmmm. There isn't? What about losing Salvation? Isn't that condemnation?

I guess there is no losing Salvation for those who are in Christ Jesus.


But those without faith, those who are not in Christ Jesus, are free to continue in their condemnation.
​

 

[DJ2]

Security - the enemies secret excuse for sin

Is sin really evil and destructive? Does death follow where sinful deeds take place?
Yes.

When I have a real friendship, sometimes the fear of losing it destroys it because I
must break the friendship so I am not hurt if they break it first.

When I have a friend who I know who is consistent, reliable, predictable, always there
and understands me, I have no fear and know the relationship will not fail because
neither of us has failed.

So in reality the strength of a relationship is based on knowledge and consistency.

Once I believe I am safe in a relationship and can abuse the other party, I become
an exploiter and the relationship does not really exist, it is just abuse.

What we learn from relationships, security is founded on consistency of behavior,
not security. It is security alone that leads to abuse.

Consistency leads to knowing the relationship is alive and real, even when years
pass between times of contact, still the reality remains.

So with the Lord, if we consistently rebel, abuse, do not listen, or follow His will
or commands, we are abusing Him and He will reject us. There is no security here
only delusion and desire, for something we know is impossible.

He declares if we walk consistently in His ways, listen to Him, have faith in Him
we will find oneness with Him and eternal life. Now that is real security, real
life, real eternity.

Security on its own destroys.

Well said but a rather unpopular concept in these parts. Many here do not even accept the existence of apostasy.

 

[Ralph-]

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Mmmm. There isn't? What about losing Salvation? Isn't that condemnation?

I guess there is no losing Salvation for those who are in Christ Jesus.


But those without faith, those who are not in Christ Jesus, are free to continue in their condemnation.
​

"who walk not after the flesh". Don't miss that part. People usually skip right over that part as if it's not even there.

You have to keep believing to stay in Christ. The person who has stopped trusting in Christ lives in the flesh. That person will not be saved when Jesus comes back.

 

[Ralph-]

-It's called "doubt" and "insecurity" if you never are "sure" you are saved then you "never will be saved".-

As long as you believe and trust in Christ for the forgiveness of sin you are saved. Faith is how you access the security of salvation. And you are assured that you have that faith by how you live. Assurance comes from a changed life. It is the outward evidence that you really do believe what you say you believe.

-I don't know where you get the "live any way you want" crock but that's your issue I don't promote it

When you say that you are saved 'no matter what'..............that's where it comes from. You can skirt the issue and insist that you don't promote living any way you want but when you say even how you live can not affect your salvation you are in fact saying a person can live any way they want and still be saved.

 

[Ralph-]

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God
so that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13
(Knowing we have eternal life means we know we are saved already.)

For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of
imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 1 Peter 1:23

My salvation is of an imperishable seed. Isn't yours?

Notice that the imperishable seed did not remain in the second kind of soil believer in the Parable of the Sower. That destroys the argument that the word being imperishable means it will continue to abide in a person's heart. It did not in that person's heart.

You have to remain in the word, and it in you, for you to be saved. The word being imperishable has nothing to do with whether or not it's going to remain in you. The imperishable word is the surety of God's promise for those who trust in it and continue to trust in it. It being imperishable has nothing to do with it always remaining in someone's heart.


"let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father."-1 John 2:24


"28Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming."-1 John 2:28

 

[Ralph-]

Seriously it's still strange how some that say they "know Jesus" believe they might "forget to believe in Jesus" and then call that faith,"secure"

No, it's not that people forget to believe in Jesus. They choose to no longer believe in Jesus. They choose to go back to the world and indulge the appetites of the flesh. The deceitful part of that unbelief is they think they are still okay with Jesus when they do that, not knowing their return to the flesh is a return to unbelief. If they were still trusting and relying on God's forgiveness for sin they would not be going back to the flesh.

I just woke up not too long ago and I still believe in and upon Jesus so why can't others?

Just because it's outside of your experience to think about going back to the flesh and away from God's forgiveness doesn't mean nobody does that. A big part of growing up in the faith is realizing not everyone thinks like you do. Just because you think this way, or respond this way to various things doesn't mean everybody does. There really are those who believe but then fall away. The scary part about that is how the church helps these people who have returned to the flesh think they have not fallen away.

Sin is deceitful that way. If you're living in the flesh you have, or are in the process of, departing from trust and reliance in Christ. Paul says to not be deceived about this. The person living in the deeds of the flesh when Jesus comes back will not be saved. Doesn't matter if you used to believe and used to not live in the flesh. People who live in the flesh will not be saved when Jesus comes back. They have ceased to abide in the word. And anyone who does not have the word abiding in them has neither the Father or the Son.


"9Anyone who goes too far (that is, thrusts the word of God behind them) and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son."-2 John 1:9


Do not be deceived. The one who says they are a believer but who is living in the flesh is not abiding in the teaching of Christ. They have fallen from faith in Christ. The person who does not abide (continue) in the word and teaching of Christ DOES NOT HAVE GOD. John said so.


"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father."-1 John 2:24

 

[Deade]

M......,

There is miss understanding of repentance and saved;

When we repent, here on earth our status is...repented.
When G-d passes judgement on us after death..we are saved...and no one can take it away from us.

If we say we are saved while alive here on earth then G-d has no power to condemn us upon His review of our righteous life while on this earth. That's non sense.

What is the appearance before the judgement seat of G-d for?

The Bible tells us in many ways that we can loose our repented status...including the loss of the 5 crowns that we could be awarded.

Here is the judgement of believers:

1 Pet. 4:17: “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?”

Isa. 43:25: “I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. “

Heb. 8:12: “For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.”

Heb. 10:17: “And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.” just saying...