How To Be Un-Saved
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Its only over when Jesus says it is.
Not when you say it is or perceive of others who you feel the right to write off as non believers.
Remember the ones who you said when I asked you the question giving 3 scenarios of believers would you seek out.
To which you said "No"
Maybe it's best you leave the judgement of Salvation up to Jesus.
After all he is the one who says
"Good and faithful servant"
Not you
Not when you say it is or perceive of others who you feel the right to write off as non believers.
Remember the ones who you said when I asked you the question giving 3 scenarios of believers would you seek out.
To which you said "No"
Maybe it's best you leave the judgement of Salvation up to Jesus.
After all he is the one who says
"Good and faithful servant"
Not you
Can you tell me off any beliver who has not done an evil deed or for a time struggles with sin?
Can you tell me off any beliver whose heart is totally pure 100% of the time?
When you say "Walk in evil deeds"
What do you mean?
Are they the people who I have asked you about above?
Or are they people who walk in evil deeds and do not give two hoots?
If so they are not believers at worst and at best they need to be taught what Paul says in Romans 6.
If they still reject it then leave them up to it.
My friend you need to make yourself clear.
What is the reality you talk about?
I sin, yes I do.
It's not something I take lightly, its not something I seek after.
When I sin is not my heart impure?
In fact it's not my heart impure full stop?
What is it I seek after.
To be like Jesus, walk has he asked me to.
When I get it wrong I fess it up, ask Jesus for help.
Yet your post comes across as me not being in Christ.
Romans 3:21-24
God's Righteousness Through Faith
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
3:21 In this context the righteousness of God is not an attribute of God, but an act of God whereby He declares a sinner righteous. This is righteousness from God.
3:22, 23 God revealed to people how they should live, but no one can live up to God’s perfect way. all have sinned: No one can live up to what God created us to be; we all fall short of His glory. We cannot save ourselves because as sinners we can never meet God’s requirements. Our only hope is faith in Jesus Christ.
3:24 Those who believe (v. 22) are justified, that is, “declared righteous,” freely, without cost, by God’s grace, or “favor.” Christ Jesus died to provide redemption, which means He died to pay the price required to ransom sinners. By paying the penalty of their sin through His death, Jesus can free people from their sin and transfer His righteousness to those who believe in Him. On the basis of Christ’s righteousness alone, believers can approach God’s throne with praise. Through God’s initiative, they have been restored to a proper relationship with Him. (NKJV study notes)
God bless
Can you tell me off any beliver whose heart is totally pure 100% of the time?
When you say "Walk in evil deeds"
What do you mean?
Are they the people who I have asked you about above?
Or are they people who walk in evil deeds and do not give two hoots?
If so they are not believers at worst and at best they need to be taught what Paul says in Romans 6.
If they still reject it then leave them up to it.
My friend you need to make yourself clear.
What is the reality you talk about?
I sin, yes I do.
It's not something I take lightly, its not something I seek after.
When I sin is not my heart impure?
In fact it's not my heart impure full stop?
What is it I seek after.
To be like Jesus, walk has he asked me to.
When I get it wrong I fess it up, ask Jesus for help.
Yet your post comes across as me not being in Christ.
Romans 3:21-24
God's Righteousness Through Faith
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
3:21 In this context the righteousness of God is not an attribute of God, but an act of God whereby He declares a sinner righteous. This is righteousness from God.
3:22, 23 God revealed to people how they should live, but no one can live up to God’s perfect way. all have sinned: No one can live up to what God created us to be; we all fall short of His glory. We cannot save ourselves because as sinners we can never meet God’s requirements. Our only hope is faith in Jesus Christ.
3:24 Those who believe (v. 22) are justified, that is, “declared righteous,” freely, without cost, by God’s grace, or “favor.” Christ Jesus died to provide redemption, which means He died to pay the price required to ransom sinners. By paying the penalty of their sin through His death, Jesus can free people from their sin and transfer His righteousness to those who believe in Him. On the basis of Christ’s righteousness alone, believers can approach God’s throne with praise. Through God’s initiative, they have been restored to a proper relationship with Him. (NKJV study notes)
God bless
If God forces some people to uphold a decision they made doesn't it make sense that He would force some to their first decision?
Why would He only step in and force people to uphold their decision when it comes to their second one?
This view, biblically, wouldn't be called "forced". It would be called Held in the Fathers Hand.
Why would He only step in and force people to uphold their decision when it comes to their second one?
This view, biblically, wouldn't be called "forced". It would be called Held in the Fathers Hand.
Little children/believers abide in Him, have confidence and will not be ashamed before Him at His coming. In CONTRAST, there will be those shallow, temporary believers whose faith was never firmly rooted and established from the start and did not abide (like those in the 2nd soil) and face only shame at His coming. To abide simply means to not to depart, to continue to be present, to be held, kept, continually.
No, Paul did not say that genuine believing is in vain. Paul makes a CONTRAST between receiving the gospel/in which you stand/are saved (demonstrative evidence) IF you hold fast that word which he preached with UNLESS you believed in vain -- without cause or without effect, to no purpose. This contrast is found in verses 1 and 2.
Either we believe and hold fast or else we believe in vain. There is no middle ground.
In Matthew 6:7, we read - And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
In Matthew 15:9, we read - And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.
By 1 Corinthians 15:12-19, Paul has already moved on from the point he made in verse 1-2 and is making a new point. 12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
The one's who fail to hold fast to the gospel and believed in vain -- without cause or without effect, to no purpose are not really saved.
Yet the point that I was making is that NOT ALL belief is saving belief. In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons believe (pisteuo) "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe (same Greek word - pisteuo) on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.
Again, people who hear and receive the word with joy (emotional response) and believe (in a shallow way) without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" do not experience real salvation.
There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." As we see with this superficial belief in John 2:23-25 and in John 8:30, where these Jews who were said to have "believed in Him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus, children of the devil, liars, and guilty of setting out to stone the one they have professed to believe in (verses 34-59).
Not everyone is a fake/make believer and who said that "stumble" equates to go to the eternal fire/condemnation? In Matthew 26:31 - Then Jesus said to them, "All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written: 'I will strike the Shepherd, And the sheep of the flock will be scattered.' Does that mean all of Jesus' disciples are condemned to eternal fire? Are all 12 disciples condemned?
No, Paul did not say that genuine believing is in vain. Paul makes a CONTRAST between receiving the gospel/in which you stand/are saved (demonstrative evidence) IF you hold fast that word which he preached with UNLESS you believed in vain -- without cause or without effect, to no purpose. This contrast is found in verses 1 and 2.
Either we believe and hold fast or else we believe in vain. There is no middle ground.
In Matthew 6:7, we read - And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
In Matthew 15:9, we read - And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.
By 1 Corinthians 15:12-19, Paul has already moved on from the point he made in verse 1-2 and is making a new point. 12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
The one's who fail to hold fast to the gospel and believed in vain -- without cause or without effect, to no purpose are not really saved.
Yet the point that I was making is that NOT ALL belief is saving belief. In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons believe (pisteuo) "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe (same Greek word - pisteuo) on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.
Again, people who hear and receive the word with joy (emotional response) and believe (in a shallow way) without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" do not experience real salvation.
There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." As we see with this superficial belief in John 2:23-25 and in John 8:30, where these Jews who were said to have "believed in Him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus, children of the devil, liars, and guilty of setting out to stone the one they have professed to believe in (verses 34-59).
Not everyone is a fake/make believer and who said that "stumble" equates to go to the eternal fire/condemnation? In Matthew 26:31 - Then Jesus said to them, "All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written: 'I will strike the Shepherd, And the sheep of the flock will be scattered.' Does that mean all of Jesus' disciples are condemned to eternal fire? Are all 12 disciples condemned?
R
Verse for that idea please?
Once it's over, it's over, baby. God is not mocked.
R
You can think what you want about the passage, but I don't know of any unbelievers who have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit.
For the sake of argument, let's assume he's talking about unbelievers. If God won't let the unbeliever repent, how much less would he allow the ex-believer to repent and come back to Christ.
For the sake of argument, let's assume he's talking about unbelievers. If God won't let the unbeliever repent, how much less would he allow the ex-believer to repent and come back to Christ.
R
What a horribly insecure gospel. You can't know if you really believe and are saved until you exhaust all opportunities to find out if you're going to keep believing. That means you won't know if you're really saved until you die. And people say that's the doctrine of security and assurance. IOW, you can't know if you'll persevere to the very end (showing yourself to be saved) until you persevere to the very end.
Well, then let's put it into a reality perspective....you believe in Jesus, have you lost that belief? If you have, then you have fallen away. But we know that isn't possible for us who are saved. We already know that the unbeliever cannot comprehend the things of God, because they are foolishness to him. We also know that to lose belief would be the same thing as blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Rejecting him) That is essentially putting Christ to an open shame. And to be real, if I were to fall away, then you too would be able to fall away. Let me ask you....have you fallen away?
R
No, I haven't fallen away, but that doesn't mean anything in your doctrine. There is still tomorrow to see if I'll fall away proving that I was never saved all along. And people call that the doctrine of security and assurance.
See, in the doctrine I believe, you are saved as long as you are believing. And your life shows whether or not you are really believing. Pretty simple.....and secure. Just keep believing and you have all the promises of God and no one can take them away from you.
See, in the doctrine I believe, you are saved as long as you are believing. And your life shows whether or not you are really believing. Pretty simple.....and secure. Just keep believing and you have all the promises of God and no one can take them away from you.
While I respect that, key in on something really quick. You said you believe you are saved as long as you keep believing.....The key is, once you are saved, you CANNOT lose that belief in Jesus, otherwise, if you somehow "lost" that belief, you were never saved to begin with. I do believe a believer can (and will) back slide, but like the prodigal son, at the end of the day, he was STILL his father's son, just as when I was born into the family of God, I became a child of God, and I will always be his.
Ralph, those verses are very simple and straightforward.
In verse 6 the two verbs "crucify again" and "put him to shame" are both present participles. Greek present participles uses as adverbs describe action happening at the same time as the main verb. Hence: it is impossible to renew them again to repentance while at the same time they are crucifying the Son of God and while at the same time they are putting him to an open shame.
To be able to repent, all the person needs to do is to stop "crucifying the Son of God" and "putting him to an open shame". Not saying it is easy to get a person to stop doing that, but it is not impossible!
In verse 6 the two verbs "crucify again" and "put him to shame" are both present participles. Greek present participles uses as adverbs describe action happening at the same time as the main verb. Hence: it is impossible to renew them again to repentance while at the same time they are crucifying the Son of God and while at the same time they are putting him to an open shame.
To be able to repent, all the person needs to do is to stop "crucifying the Son of God" and "putting him to an open shame". Not saying it is easy to get a person to stop doing that, but it is not impossible!