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And jaybird, I think along the same lines as you with a few other things in pauls writings. Like when he says: I think I have the mind of God on this. And when he says: I give my opinion here.
It is kind of silly to take a man saying I think or in my opinion, and to say the man is saying: thus sayeth the Lord!
I mean...Thus sayeth the Lord: I, paul, give my opinion. It's just ridiculous.
It is kind of silly to take a man saying I think or in my opinion, and to say the man is saying: thus sayeth the Lord!
I mean...Thus sayeth the Lord: I, paul, give my opinion. It's just ridiculous.
If it has nothing to do with a woman preaching within a church, why did YOU ask?
Still don't get why YOU asked the question, but that's okay. It doesn't change the fact that women ministered to Jesus.
There were also many women there, looking on from a distance, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to him, 56among whom were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph and the mother of the sons of Zebedee. Matthew 27:55-56
That is such an odd question, and that's putting it lightly.
I NEVER said anytime or anywhere that women were wiser than Jesus. I fear God and my knowledge of scripture is sufficient enough that
I would never make an absurd assertion like that. Women are NOT wiser than Jesus. Likewise, men are NOT wiser than Jesus.
Still don't get why YOU asked the question, but that's okay. It doesn't change the fact that women ministered to Jesus.
There were also many women there, looking on from a distance, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to him, 56among whom were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph and the mother of the sons of Zebedee. Matthew 27:55-56
That is such an odd question, and that's putting it lightly.
I NEVER said anytime or anywhere that women were wiser than Jesus. I fear God and my knowledge of scripture is sufficient enough that
I would never make an absurd assertion like that. Women are NOT wiser than Jesus. Likewise, men are NOT wiser than Jesus.
Thank you so much for these! I laughed so hard! You made my day!
Why didn’t you say earlier you were KJV Only? I wouldn’t have bothered to discuss anything with you.
Fact: I read Koine Greek very well. I read Hebrew, not as well, but with tools I can get by, or ask Marc what he thinks.
KJV was an amazing translation. BUT, it was translated from 7 very late, corrupted manuscripts, mostly relied on Erasmus’, a Roman Catholic priest’s translation, who sometimes back translated from Latin. Plus, now, we have over 6000 manuscripts for the Greek NT, in which every transcription error, omissions and additions have been traced. We also have a huge amount of contemporaneous documents, with which to compare the translation, which was not available to the KJV translators.
Even so, translators biases show through. I have read the Bible over 50 times in English, French, some German and Spanish and the NT in Greek and parts of the OT in Hebrew. It becomes easy to see the biases after a while, KJV having many biases, which were laid down by King James.
When a word appears many times in the NT, it is easy to compare different verses where the word occurs, and get a better sense of the meaning.
It is not easy, in fact impossible, to compare a word that only occurs once. Authentein, which the KJV translates “exercise authority over,”is one such word. Contemporaneous sources point to something like “to domineer” which would make more sense. Had Paul wanted to say “authority” he would have said, exousia. Along with a verb and a preposition.
Anyway, I can’t read KJV I don’t read Early Modern English. My theory is most people can’t read it well, which is why a modern version is a much better choice to read. BUT, if it works for you, that is great. It is neither inspired, nor correct all the time. Hence I would suggest you go read the KJV thread, where translational issues and conflicts internally in the KJV are discussed.
Put another way, having revealed yourself to be caught in this KJV Only cult, there really is no point in discussing this anymore. My suggestion is to take some courses in Greek and Hebrew, the inspired and original languages. Otherwise you will wallow on in this abysmal heresy that the KJV has no errors!
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Man's logic is totally contrary to the mind of the spirit in Jesus Christ.
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart, do not trust in your own understanding (logic, intelligence). In all your ways acknowledge (concede to, surrender to) Him, and HE will direct your paths."
How come people keep forgetting that the flesh (logical mind) cannot communicate with God?
Perhaps if I repeat it a few more times:
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. [1 Cor. 2:14]
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. [1 Cor. 2:14]
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. [1 Cor. 2:14]
All the things of God are only spiritually discerned. No matter how wise you think you are or how hard you try, you will not receive eternal truth in your logical mind. You are in error if you think you can mentally or intellectually figure out what God wants of you. It is impossible to have a relationship with God logically.
Well that would be very odd, because Pontiac was 55 and single (he was on my friend list), and loyaldisciple is listed as married and 92 yrs old. If it IS Pontiac, he's not behaving like a loyal disciple. If he's lying, he's not a very reliable source.
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart, do not trust in your own understanding (logic, intelligence). In all your ways acknowledge (concede to, surrender to) Him, and HE will direct your paths."
How come people keep forgetting that the flesh (logical mind) cannot communicate with God?
Perhaps if I repeat it a few more times:
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. [1 Cor. 2:14]
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. [1 Cor. 2:14]
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. [1 Cor. 2:14]
All the things of God are only spiritually discerned. No matter how wise you think you are or how hard you try, you will not receive eternal truth in your logical mind. You are in error if you think you can mentally or intellectually figure out what God wants of you. It is impossible to have a relationship with God logically.
I think there is a Pontiac in here again
If he's lying, he's not a very reliable source.why not just as an individual person called and chosen by God, if you truly know/believe this and
walk the walk and talk the talk, do what He tells you to do, you will eventually begin to truly Believe,
and not give a care what the 'carnal' world thinks: hub and i surely don't since our 'conversion,
and never will again!!!...all we care about is what The Holy Spirit leads us to do and to say, for
Jesus' Ways are the only Way to connect and be/stay in His will for the rest of our lives... -
if Jesus has not revealed to you, your purpose for your life, why in this 'fallen an evil world' would
you want to live here???
walk the walk and talk the talk, do what He tells you to do, you will eventually begin to truly Believe,
and not give a care what the 'carnal' world thinks: hub and i surely don't since our 'conversion,
and never will again!!!...all we care about is what The Holy Spirit leads us to do and to say, for
Jesus' Ways are the only Way to connect and be/stay in His will for the rest of our lives... -
if Jesus has not revealed to you, your purpose for your life, why in this 'fallen an evil world' would
you want to live here???
We need to interpret scriptures in a cultural & historical sense.
Scriptures (New Testament) says women shouldn't dishonor themselves by cutting their hair (cultural sense). Where if a woman cut her hair she was suspected of being a prostitute; since it was easier for women with short hair to hide amongst men...and while I've met some Christians that take this literally that a woman should never cut their hair, they get very flustered when I ask them if they bathe outside for 7 days until they are "clean" after being in their period, or if their husband ever got into debt if she'd let him sell her into slavery (all "acceptable" by the laws in Exodus). I guess my question is why are people picking and choosing? You can argue all you want that women should be submissive and shouldn't be allowed to speak in the church, I'd be very interested to see how they feel about all the other "demands". As Christians sometimes we focus so much on the small things as a means to be "holier" or better than others when in reality the one truth that matters is that Jesus died on the cross so we could be redeemed. Not one of us is better or less deserving of salvation in fact we all equality are sinners and need his salvation...
Let's just put it in perspective here folks...in biblical times a woman's witnessing of a crime or her testimony to a crime was automatically dismissed because she was a woman. Jewish men used to pray thanking God that they weren't born a woman...think about the culture; of course Paul wrote it in that manner, it was crazy enough trying to get people to think that Jesus came for Jew & Gentile and that it was okay to eat whatever they wanted...now imagine the thought that they were equal to a woman...they'd have stoned him on the spot...we are all equal in God's eyes. If God can use a mule to speak to someone (Numbers 22:21-39), why can't he use man or woman to speak for him? Seriously....
Scriptures (New Testament) says women shouldn't dishonor themselves by cutting their hair (cultural sense). Where if a woman cut her hair she was suspected of being a prostitute; since it was easier for women with short hair to hide amongst men...and while I've met some Christians that take this literally that a woman should never cut their hair, they get very flustered when I ask them if they bathe outside for 7 days until they are "clean" after being in their period, or if their husband ever got into debt if she'd let him sell her into slavery (all "acceptable" by the laws in Exodus). I guess my question is why are people picking and choosing? You can argue all you want that women should be submissive and shouldn't be allowed to speak in the church, I'd be very interested to see how they feel about all the other "demands". As Christians sometimes we focus so much on the small things as a means to be "holier" or better than others when in reality the one truth that matters is that Jesus died on the cross so we could be redeemed. Not one of us is better or less deserving of salvation in fact we all equality are sinners and need his salvation...
Let's just put it in perspective here folks...in biblical times a woman's witnessing of a crime or her testimony to a crime was automatically dismissed because she was a woman. Jewish men used to pray thanking God that they weren't born a woman...think about the culture; of course Paul wrote it in that manner, it was crazy enough trying to get people to think that Jesus came for Jew & Gentile and that it was okay to eat whatever they wanted...now imagine the thought that they were equal to a woman...they'd have stoned him on the spot...we are all equal in God's eyes. If God can use a mule to speak to someone (Numbers 22:21-39), why can't he use man or woman to speak for him? Seriously....
Amen, sister! And I personally don't give a care what the logical or carnal world thinks of me. I'm only posting in defense of our Christian sisters on this site who are in ministry and who keep getting dishonored and treated harshly by spiritually immature men.
And I personally don't give a care what the logical or carnal world thinks of me. I'm only posting in defense of our Christian sisters on this site who are in ministry and who keep getting dishonored and treated harshly by spiritually immature men.
the least of our concerns are for our 'sisters',,,for they are all, for the most part strong and growing,
we pray from sharing our experiences, (both of us) and all of the others who are sharing,
that we truly Love them all and that they learn and grow from what we have had to endure and overcome,,.
and the 'out-come' from our experiences,,.(few will - and some won't), this is the way of the world...
L
Actually there are several inaccuracies and discrepancies here of which I believe Angela may be aware of but just not mentioning because they do not further her cause. I won't go into them right now because I said I would not debate this on Easter. Actually there is much more opinion and wishful thinking here rather than substantiated truth along with a few irrelevant comparisons. I will dissect this theology and reveal the truth of this on Monday.
L
You might want to remove those shades and actually "read" what the Bible says. Although God declares man and woman "equal" in their value to Him and He declares His love for them to be "equal", He certainly does not issue them equal roles within society. God specifically issues much more authority to the man and to the husband in many, many verses. As a man, who is responsible for carrying out some of that authority, you probably should stop coddling unto women and begin to exercise the proper authority given unto you by God. I can show you verse after verse where God states men are to rule over women as a consequence to what happened in the Garden of Eden. You cannot show me one single verse within the Bible that states women should rule over man. Now women today believe any man who actually attempts to go by any of this is greatly disrespecting them, but that is entirely false thinking. God gave the commandments and He did not think any less of a woman, only that her role was to be different. So, any man who believes in carrying on those commands of God can also very easily not think any less of a woman. It is not about who is most important. It is not about who is most valuable. Neither are most important, neither are most valuable, but someone must lead and God chose that to be the man. We can all sit here and argue over this for 1000 years and that is never going to change. There are so many verses in the Bible which reflect this very thing, I believe the ladies here have to know this. I believe they just like to prod the man to see how high they can get him to jump. Really I don't think it is wise for a woman to tempt a man like that, especially a man that does already have plenty of respect for them and their God given role. When they do that, the result they are likely to get is much more likely to be a loss of some of that respect rather than any gain they might be looking for. Feminism does not demand more respect from a godly man, it demands less.
Really? See below-your own highlighted text.
Asking a question and learning is not giving a sermon. Silence was asked for during learning. This isn't about a woman doing a sermon/teaching. This was likely to have more to do with a problem arising from the segregation of the sexes as has been highlighted. And possibly the types of places used for church gatherings in the first century. These days most Pastors and teachers speak through a microphone which makes it very difficult for the flow of a teaching to be disrupted.
Asking a question and learning is not giving a sermon. Silence was asked for during learning. This isn't about a woman doing a sermon/teaching. This was likely to have more to do with a problem arising from the segregation of the sexes as has been highlighted. And possibly the types of places used for church gatherings in the first century. These days most Pastors and teachers speak through a microphone which makes it very difficult for the flow of a teaching to be disrupted.
All things are Spiritually discerned Yet by definition to reason is to use logic.
Logical arguments through the Spirit is how we see and understand the things of the Spirit that are written in the Holy Writ.
All Doctrine found in the Holy Writ that is of the Truth is based on logical arguments discerned and found through the Holy Spirit.
Logical arguments through the Spirit is how we see and understand the things of the Spirit that are written in the Holy Writ.
All Doctrine found in the Holy Writ that is of the Truth is based on logical arguments discerned and found through the Holy Spirit.
Just as an aside, and a personal note to Angela, I have never entered the KJV only thread, except once or twice by accident. But I didn't know you participated in it.
I'm going to read it to see your posts. I would prefer to find what you have to say, not in a piecemeal way, like I have to do in here, dodging around long and unlearned posts that are ridiculous, but if that's the only way to hear you, I'll do it - I'm tenacious.
I don't remember who said this, but I woke thinking of the quote and it made me laugh, considering this thread - preach the gospel at all times. If necessary, use words.
You see here just one woman's (me) hunger for practical theology, but a lot of us only really read what is a practical help to us any more. Everything else, we just discard. And if you aren't practically helping people, its doubtful that you are doing anything of worth.
Okay, I'll stop my campaign for practical theology. For now.
If you were to somehow find a way to arrange a bible study, it would be a practical help and a service to us. Maybe a topical study or a series of topical studies? You know, like, in your spare time...
I'm going to read it to see your posts. I would prefer to find what you have to say, not in a piecemeal way, like I have to do in here, dodging around long and unlearned posts that are ridiculous, but if that's the only way to hear you, I'll do it - I'm tenacious.
I don't remember who said this, but I woke thinking of the quote and it made me laugh, considering this thread - preach the gospel at all times. If necessary, use words.
You see here just one woman's (me) hunger for practical theology, but a lot of us only really read what is a practical help to us any more. Everything else, we just discard. And if you aren't practically helping people, its doubtful that you are doing anything of worth.
Okay, I'll stop my campaign for practical theology. For now.
If you were to somehow find a way to arrange a bible study, it would be a practical help and a service to us. Maybe a topical study or a series of topical studies? You know, like, in your spare time...
It is an interesting word actually.
From Thayers unabridged work. I highlighted in bold his section on 2:12 ...
G831
αὐθεντέω, ἀυθέντω; (a Biblical and ecclesiastical word; from αὐθέντης contracted from αὐτοέντης, and this from αὐτός and ἔντεα arms (others, ἑντης, cf. Hesychius συνεντης συνεργός; cf. Lobeck, Technol., p. 121); hence,
a. according to earlier usage, one who with his own hand kills either others or himself.
b. in later Greek writings one who does a thing himself the author" (τῆς πράξεως, Polybius 23, 14, 2, etc.); one who acts on his own authority, autocratic, equivalent to αὐτοκράτωρ an absolute master; cf. Lobeck ad Phryn., p. 120 (also as above; cf. Winers Grammar, § 2, 1 c.)); to govern one, exercise dominion over one: τινς, 1Ti_2:12.
Let's see what the BDAG cites.
αὐθεντέω (s. αὐθέντης; Philod., Rhet. II p. 133, 14 Sudh.; Jo. Lydus, Mag. 3, 42; Moeris p. 54; cp. Phryn. 120 Lob.; Hesychius; Thom. Mag. p. 18, 8; schol. in Aeschyl., Eum. 42; BGU 1208, 38 [27 B.C.]; s. Lampe s.v.) to assume a stance of independent authority, give orders to, dictate to w. gen. of pers. (Ptolem., Apotel. 3, 14, 10 Boll-B.; Cat. Cod. Astr. VIII/1 p. 177, 7; B-D-F §177) ἀνδρός, w. διδάσκειν, 1 Ti 2:12 (practically = ‘tell a man what to do’ [Jerusalem Bible]; Mich. Glykas [XII A.D.] 270, 10 αἱ γυναῖκες αὐθεντοῦσι τ. ἀνδρῶν. According to Diod. S. 1, 27, 2 there was a well-documented law in Egypt: κυριεύειν τὴν γυναῖκα τἀνδρός, cp. Soph., OC 337–41; GKnight III, NTS 30, ’84, 143–57; LWilshire, ibid. 34, ’88, 120–34).—DELG s.v. αὐθέντης. M-M.
From what I see from what is shared above "to usurp authority" definitely falls within the grammar and how the word was used in Antiquity considering usurp is a verb. Maybe "to be usurping authority" would bring out the present tense more clearly.
Thinking on what you shared in regards to domineer. That definitely falls in line figuratively with what Thayer shared: in that he said, " according to earlier usage, one who with his own hand kills either others or himself." But then so would usurp.
But I don't see them falling in line with later usage. When I think of the word domineer or usurping I think of abusive authority or dictatorship. I am not seeing that emphatically being stated above in the citations.
What do you think?
What is that all about?
. Where are these examples? I am not aware of them that is why I ask.
Amen!
Not sure where you are coming from, but from either side of the argument, Subjectivity is an ugly beast that quips it's tongue way to often in regards to Spiritual things.
Speaking of context I love the fact the Paul through the Spirit gave a reason for what he emphatically stated in that he said, "but I am not allowing woman to be teaching, nor to be dictating authority over man, but to be (in) quietness."
He reasoned through the Spirit, "For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."
(1Ti 2:13-14 KJV)
I had not read through this thread. So I am not aware of how everyone thinks on this issue. But Please note if we continue this dialog that I probably do not see as others or how you might think I do in regards to woman and ministry.
From Thayers unabridged work. I highlighted in bold his section on 2:12 ...
G831
αὐθεντέω, ἀυθέντω; (a Biblical and ecclesiastical word; from αὐθέντης contracted from αὐτοέντης, and this from αὐτός and ἔντεα arms (others, ἑντης, cf. Hesychius συνεντης συνεργός; cf. Lobeck, Technol., p. 121); hence,
a. according to earlier usage, one who with his own hand kills either others or himself.
b. in later Greek writings one who does a thing himself the author" (τῆς πράξεως, Polybius 23, 14, 2, etc.); one who acts on his own authority, autocratic, equivalent to αὐτοκράτωρ an absolute master; cf. Lobeck ad Phryn., p. 120 (also as above; cf. Winers Grammar, § 2, 1 c.)); to govern one, exercise dominion over one: τινς, 1Ti_2:12.
Let's see what the BDAG cites.
αὐθεντέω (s. αὐθέντης; Philod., Rhet. II p. 133, 14 Sudh.; Jo. Lydus, Mag. 3, 42; Moeris p. 54; cp. Phryn. 120 Lob.; Hesychius; Thom. Mag. p. 18, 8; schol. in Aeschyl., Eum. 42; BGU 1208, 38 [27 B.C.]; s. Lampe s.v.) to assume a stance of independent authority, give orders to, dictate to w. gen. of pers. (Ptolem., Apotel. 3, 14, 10 Boll-B.; Cat. Cod. Astr. VIII/1 p. 177, 7; B-D-F §177) ἀνδρός, w. διδάσκειν, 1 Ti 2:12 (practically = ‘tell a man what to do’ [Jerusalem Bible]; Mich. Glykas [XII A.D.] 270, 10 αἱ γυναῖκες αὐθεντοῦσι τ. ἀνδρῶν. According to Diod. S. 1, 27, 2 there was a well-documented law in Egypt: κυριεύειν τὴν γυναῖκα τἀνδρός, cp. Soph., OC 337–41; GKnight III, NTS 30, ’84, 143–57; LWilshire, ibid. 34, ’88, 120–34).—DELG s.v. αὐθέντης. M-M.
From what I see from what is shared above "to usurp authority" definitely falls within the grammar and how the word was used in Antiquity considering usurp is a verb. Maybe "to be usurping authority" would bring out the present tense more clearly.
Thinking on what you shared in regards to domineer. That definitely falls in line figuratively with what Thayer shared: in that he said, " according to earlier usage, one who with his own hand kills either others or himself." But then so would usurp.
But I don't see them falling in line with later usage. When I think of the word domineer or usurping I think of abusive authority or dictatorship. I am not seeing that emphatically being stated above in the citations.
What do you think?
What is that all about?
. Where are these examples? I am not aware of them that is why I ask.
Amen!
Not sure where you are coming from, but from either side of the argument, Subjectivity is an ugly beast that quips it's tongue way to often in regards to Spiritual things.
Speaking of context I love the fact the Paul through the Spirit gave a reason for what he emphatically stated in that he said, "but I am not allowing woman to be teaching, nor to be dictating authority over man, but to be (in) quietness."
He reasoned through the Spirit, "For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."
(1Ti 2:13-14 KJV)
I had not read through this thread. So I am not aware of how everyone thinks on this issue. But Please note if we continue this dialog that I probably do not see as others or how you might think I do in regards to woman and ministry.
Just as an aside, and a personal note to Angela, I have never entered the KJV only thread, except once or twice by accident. But I didn't know you participated in it.
I'm going to read it to see your posts. I would prefer to find what you have to say, not in a piecemeal way, like I have to do in here, dodging around long and unlearned posts that are ridiculous, but if that's the only way to hear you, I'll do it - I'm tenacious.
I don't remember who said this, but I woke thinking of the quote and it made me laugh, considering this thread - preach the gospel at all times. If necessary, use words.
You see here just one woman's (me) hunger for practical theology, but a lot of us only really read what is a practical help to us any more. Everything else, we just discard. And if you aren't practically helping people, its doubtful that you are doing anything of worth.
Okay, I'll stop my campaign for practical theology. For now.
If you were to somehow find a way to arrange a bible study, it would be a practical help and a service to us. Maybe a topical study or a series of topical studies? You know, like, in your spare time...
I'm going to read it to see your posts. I would prefer to find what you have to say, not in a piecemeal way, like I have to do in here, dodging around long and unlearned posts that are ridiculous, but if that's the only way to hear you, I'll do it - I'm tenacious.
I don't remember who said this, but I woke thinking of the quote and it made me laugh, considering this thread - preach the gospel at all times. If necessary, use words.
You see here just one woman's (me) hunger for practical theology, but a lot of us only really read what is a practical help to us any more. Everything else, we just discard. And if you aren't practically helping people, its doubtful that you are doing anything of worth.
Okay, I'll stop my campaign for practical theology. For now.
If you were to somehow find a way to arrange a bible study, it would be a practical help and a service to us. Maybe a topical study or a series of topical studies? You know, like, in your spare time...