-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
7
cool your jets there dude
you are so busy making smoke and sending out flares for your failing interpretations that your anger is getting the best of you
I don't take orders from you and neither does anyone else here
I understand your personality type must be da boss of everyone so tell yourself that is who you are cause no one else is going to
perhaps that will give some peace of mind
so glad you found something you can get so upset about
so should we concur you are simply self taught or is there some other institution to blame your anger on?
Last edited by a moderator:
7
your basic problem, as with so many in this forum who come huffing and puffing and full of righteous anger (self righteous that is) is that you cherry pick verses, ignore anything in scripture that might require a 2nd look or further study and then make a doctrine out of it because it suits your own purposes
your use of derogatory language towards women is sufficient to illustrate your own personal bias...with or without any use of scripture as 'proof texts'
the Corinthian church was progressing towards 'anything goes' because they were not following the order laid out by Paul for speaking in tongues or the use of the gifts (it doesn't matter if you believe in the gifts ... we are looking at context...which is something you seem unable to consider because it will not feed your personal bias)
Paul was instructing the Corinthian church in order and conduct in their services.
you use some of his comments to supply an excuse for telling your wife (if you have one) and all women (which are none of your business actually...this forum is not your church and you are not in charge) to shut up, shut down and play dumb
your arrogance is what feeds your bias...you imagine yourself superior and desire that we all acknowledge you as superior
again, you are progressing towards the exit sign...and time will see that happen if you continue with your intolerable and antagonistic approach and obvious chauvinism towards women
men like you, are the foundation for the women's movement...of which I was never a part of
Women “Should Remain Silent” - A Study of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35
[TABLE="class: sticky-header"]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"][/TH]
[TH="align: left"][/TH]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Preface by Joseph Tkach
In 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, Paul wrote: “As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church” (vv. 33-35).
If we take this literally, it would mean that women are not allowed to sing in church nor respond when the pastor asks for comments or questions from the audience. Moreover, it would contradict what Paul said in chapter 11, where he said that women could pray and prophesy in church if they had the appropriate attire.
Common sense, church custom, and good principles of biblical interpretation all say that we should not take these verses literally—and almost no one does. Paul is not making a blanket prohibition that says that women can never speak in church. Rather, he was addressing his comments to a certain situation, and his comments are limited in some way. The question is, What are the limits of Paul’s prohibition? In the following paper, the doctrinal review team examines the context and looks at the details of these verses.
your use of derogatory language towards women is sufficient to illustrate your own personal bias...with or without any use of scripture as 'proof texts'
the Corinthian church was progressing towards 'anything goes' because they were not following the order laid out by Paul for speaking in tongues or the use of the gifts (it doesn't matter if you believe in the gifts ... we are looking at context...which is something you seem unable to consider because it will not feed your personal bias)
Paul was instructing the Corinthian church in order and conduct in their services.
you use some of his comments to supply an excuse for telling your wife (if you have one) and all women (which are none of your business actually...this forum is not your church and you are not in charge) to shut up, shut down and play dumb
your arrogance is what feeds your bias...you imagine yourself superior and desire that we all acknowledge you as superior
again, you are progressing towards the exit sign...and time will see that happen if you continue with your intolerable and antagonistic approach and obvious chauvinism towards women
men like you, are the foundation for the women's movement...of which I was never a part of
Women “Should Remain Silent” - A Study of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35
[TABLE="class: sticky-header"]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"][/TH]
[TH="align: left"][/TH]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Preface by Joseph Tkach
In 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, Paul wrote: “As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church” (vv. 33-35).
If we take this literally, it would mean that women are not allowed to sing in church nor respond when the pastor asks for comments or questions from the audience. Moreover, it would contradict what Paul said in chapter 11, where he said that women could pray and prophesy in church if they had the appropriate attire.
Common sense, church custom, and good principles of biblical interpretation all say that we should not take these verses literally—and almost no one does. Paul is not making a blanket prohibition that says that women can never speak in church. Rather, he was addressing his comments to a certain situation, and his comments are limited in some way. The question is, What are the limits of Paul’s prohibition? In the following paper, the doctrinal review team examines the context and looks at the details of these verses.
7
[h=3]A call to order[/h]In 1 Corinthians 11, Paul begins to instruct the Corinthian church about their somewhat disorganized worship services. As we studied in our previous paper, he says that women should wear a head covering when they pray and prophesy; then he corrects the Corinthians on the way they had been observing the Lord’s Supper. In chapter 12, he addresses the proper use of spiritual gifts in the worship service. He describes a number of gifts, and insists that all gifts are important to the Body of Christ; the variety of gifts calls for mutual respect and honor, not vanity or shame.
In chapter 13, he describes love as the best way, and in chapter 14 he makes an extended contrast between the gift of tongues and the gift of prophesying. Apparently some people in Corinth were extolling the gift of tongues as a mark of superior spirituality. Paul did not tell them to stop speaking in tongues, but he did put some restrictions on how tongues should be used in the worship service:
1) There should be two or three speakers (14:27).
2) They should speak one at a time (v. 27).
3) There should be an interpretation (v. 27b). If no one can interpret the tongues, “the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God” (v. 28). However, this requirement should not be lifted out of its context to create a complete prohibition on the person ever speaking, singing or praying.[1]
Paul is apparently trying to give some organization to what had been a rather chaotic worship meeting—several people speaking at once, speaking words that no one could understand.
Paul recommends the gift of prophecy as a far more helpful gift, but he gives similar guidelines for those speakers, too:
1) Only two or three should speak (v. 29). If someone else has something to say, the first speaker should be quiet.[2]
2) They should speak one at a time (v. 31).
3) People should “weigh carefully what is said” (v. 29; cf. 1 Thess. 5:21).
Paul notes that “the spirits of the prophets are subject to the control of the prophets” (1 Cor. 14:32). That is, the speakers are able to stop; they cannot use “God made me do it” as an excuse for adding to the commotion.[3] When God gives a gift, he also gives the person the responsibility to make decisions to use that gift in an appropriate way. Simply having the gift is not an excuse to use it whenever and wherever the person wants to. Paul explains his reason: “For God is not a God of disorder but of peace” (v. 33).
Paul[4] then tells the women to be quiet, and to ask their questions at home: “As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church” (vv. 33-35).
In chapter 13, he describes love as the best way, and in chapter 14 he makes an extended contrast between the gift of tongues and the gift of prophesying. Apparently some people in Corinth were extolling the gift of tongues as a mark of superior spirituality. Paul did not tell them to stop speaking in tongues, but he did put some restrictions on how tongues should be used in the worship service:
1) There should be two or three speakers (14:27).
2) They should speak one at a time (v. 27).
3) There should be an interpretation (v. 27b). If no one can interpret the tongues, “the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God” (v. 28). However, this requirement should not be lifted out of its context to create a complete prohibition on the person ever speaking, singing or praying.[1]
Paul is apparently trying to give some organization to what had been a rather chaotic worship meeting—several people speaking at once, speaking words that no one could understand.
Paul recommends the gift of prophecy as a far more helpful gift, but he gives similar guidelines for those speakers, too:
1) Only two or three should speak (v. 29). If someone else has something to say, the first speaker should be quiet.[2]
2) They should speak one at a time (v. 31).
3) People should “weigh carefully what is said” (v. 29; cf. 1 Thess. 5:21).
Paul notes that “the spirits of the prophets are subject to the control of the prophets” (1 Cor. 14:32). That is, the speakers are able to stop; they cannot use “God made me do it” as an excuse for adding to the commotion.[3] When God gives a gift, he also gives the person the responsibility to make decisions to use that gift in an appropriate way. Simply having the gift is not an excuse to use it whenever and wherever the person wants to. Paul explains his reason: “For God is not a God of disorder but of peace” (v. 33).
Paul[4] then tells the women to be quiet, and to ask their questions at home: “As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church” (vv. 33-35).
7
[h=3]Observations[/h]1) The first thing we notice is that women are not the only people Paul tells to be “silent.” He uses the same word in verses 28 and 30 to tell tongue-speakers and prophets to be silent when others speak. In both of those verses, he is calling for a temporary silence, not a complete and permanent prohibition.[5]
2) The word for “speak” (laleō) does not necessarily mean a formal role in the pulpit—it is a general word that can also be translated “talk.” Paul used a general word to say that women should not talk, and we have to make an interpretive choice: Was he prohibiting formal speaking roles, or talk in the audience,[6] or something else?
3) Paul says that instead of speaking, women should be in submission. This implies that the Corinthian women were speaking in an insubordinate way. The fact that Paul said in chapter 11 that women could pray and prophesy, and in chapter 14 that two or three people could prophesy in a worship service, shows that women are allowed to have a slot in the speaking schedule. It is not insubordinate for them to speak prophecies; it is therefore likely that Paul is prohibiting some less-formal speaking, such as chatter or comments from the audience.[7]
4) Paul says that “the Law” requires submission. There are several options for what kind of submission is meant:
a) submission of all women to all men. However, as we saw in previous studies, the Old Testament does not require all women to submit to all men, nor does it require them to be silent. Nevertheless, some scholars believe that Paul is alluding to a “principle” derived from Genesis.[8]
b) submission of wives to their husbands.[9] Although this command is not explicitly found in the Old Testament, the presence of the command in the New Testament[10] suggests that it was based on Old Testament principles. Further, v. 35 indicates that Paul may have been dealing with a husband-wife problem. However, if Paul is alluding to a rule about family relationships, it would not necessarily apply to authority in the church.
c) submission to a Roman law that restricted women’s roles in pagan worship.[11] Although Paul normally means the Mosaic law when he uses the word nomos, it is possible that he meant civil law in this verse; the Corinthians would know by context which law he meant.
d) submission to themselves. Just as Paul told the prophets to control themselves (v. 32), he uses the same Greek word in v. 34 to say that women should be in submission; the proximity of these two uses suggests that Paul means for women to control themselves. The New American Standard Bible translates v. 34b in this way: “let them subject themselves, just as the Law says.”[12] In this case the “law” could be either Roman law or general biblical principles of decency and order.
5) Paul addresses the problem by saying, “If they want to inquire about something…” This implies that the problem in Corinth concerning the asking of questions with a desire to learn something.[13] Blomberg suggests, “Perhaps the largely uneducated women of that day were interrupting proceedings with irrelevant questions that would be better dealt with in their homes.”[14] Belleville says, “Their fault was not in the asking per se but in the inappropriate setting for their questions.”[15]
6) Paul says that the women “should ask their own husbands at home.”[16] This may imply that the problems were caused primarily by women who were married to Christian men.[17] Grudem is probably right in suggesting that Paul “assumes that the Corinthians can make appropriate applications for single women [or those married to pagans], who would no doubt know some men they could talk to after the service.”[18] Paul is giving “husbands at home” as an illustration, not as a limitation on who can answer and where they must be. For example, it would be permissible to ask questions while walking home, or of other women, or of other men.[19] Paul’s main point is, Don’t talk in church, not even to ask questions.
7) Paul says that it is “disgraceful” for women to talk in church. This word appeals to the Corinthians’ own sense of social propriety. He is saying that church custom (v. 33b), the law (v. 34), and social expectations (v. 35) all prohibit women from talking in church.[20] The questions themselves are not wrong, for they can be asked at home, but it is disorderly to ask them in the worship service.
8) It is not clear whether “as in all the congregations of the saints” (v. 33b) introduces this topic, or concludes the previous one. Linda Belleville notes that in the other places Paul appeals to the practice of other churches, it is at the end of the discussion (1 Cor. 4:17; 7:17; 11:16), and it is redundant to have “in the churches” both in the introductory clause and at the end of the same sentence. As she notes, “‘Let the women…’ is a typical Pauline start to a new paragraph.”[21] However, this does not seem to affect the interpretation of the verses. Either way, it seems that other churches were already doing what Paul wanted the Corinthians to do.
2) The word for “speak” (laleō) does not necessarily mean a formal role in the pulpit—it is a general word that can also be translated “talk.” Paul used a general word to say that women should not talk, and we have to make an interpretive choice: Was he prohibiting formal speaking roles, or talk in the audience,[6] or something else?
3) Paul says that instead of speaking, women should be in submission. This implies that the Corinthian women were speaking in an insubordinate way. The fact that Paul said in chapter 11 that women could pray and prophesy, and in chapter 14 that two or three people could prophesy in a worship service, shows that women are allowed to have a slot in the speaking schedule. It is not insubordinate for them to speak prophecies; it is therefore likely that Paul is prohibiting some less-formal speaking, such as chatter or comments from the audience.[7]
4) Paul says that “the Law” requires submission. There are several options for what kind of submission is meant:
a) submission of all women to all men. However, as we saw in previous studies, the Old Testament does not require all women to submit to all men, nor does it require them to be silent. Nevertheless, some scholars believe that Paul is alluding to a “principle” derived from Genesis.[8]
b) submission of wives to their husbands.[9] Although this command is not explicitly found in the Old Testament, the presence of the command in the New Testament[10] suggests that it was based on Old Testament principles. Further, v. 35 indicates that Paul may have been dealing with a husband-wife problem. However, if Paul is alluding to a rule about family relationships, it would not necessarily apply to authority in the church.
c) submission to a Roman law that restricted women’s roles in pagan worship.[11] Although Paul normally means the Mosaic law when he uses the word nomos, it is possible that he meant civil law in this verse; the Corinthians would know by context which law he meant.
d) submission to themselves. Just as Paul told the prophets to control themselves (v. 32), he uses the same Greek word in v. 34 to say that women should be in submission; the proximity of these two uses suggests that Paul means for women to control themselves. The New American Standard Bible translates v. 34b in this way: “let them subject themselves, just as the Law says.”[12] In this case the “law” could be either Roman law or general biblical principles of decency and order.
5) Paul addresses the problem by saying, “If they want to inquire about something…” This implies that the problem in Corinth concerning the asking of questions with a desire to learn something.[13] Blomberg suggests, “Perhaps the largely uneducated women of that day were interrupting proceedings with irrelevant questions that would be better dealt with in their homes.”[14] Belleville says, “Their fault was not in the asking per se but in the inappropriate setting for their questions.”[15]
6) Paul says that the women “should ask their own husbands at home.”[16] This may imply that the problems were caused primarily by women who were married to Christian men.[17] Grudem is probably right in suggesting that Paul “assumes that the Corinthians can make appropriate applications for single women [or those married to pagans], who would no doubt know some men they could talk to after the service.”[18] Paul is giving “husbands at home” as an illustration, not as a limitation on who can answer and where they must be. For example, it would be permissible to ask questions while walking home, or of other women, or of other men.[19] Paul’s main point is, Don’t talk in church, not even to ask questions.
7) Paul says that it is “disgraceful” for women to talk in church. This word appeals to the Corinthians’ own sense of social propriety. He is saying that church custom (v. 33b), the law (v. 34), and social expectations (v. 35) all prohibit women from talking in church.[20] The questions themselves are not wrong, for they can be asked at home, but it is disorderly to ask them in the worship service.
8) It is not clear whether “as in all the congregations of the saints” (v. 33b) introduces this topic, or concludes the previous one. Linda Belleville notes that in the other places Paul appeals to the practice of other churches, it is at the end of the discussion (1 Cor. 4:17; 7:17; 11:16), and it is redundant to have “in the churches” both in the introductory clause and at the end of the same sentence. As she notes, “‘Let the women…’ is a typical Pauline start to a new paragraph.”[21] However, this does not seem to affect the interpretation of the verses. Either way, it seems that other churches were already doing what Paul wanted the Corinthians to do.
This is what Christ is about. Doesn't say anything about excluding women here.
And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp. And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, [one] of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them. And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? I would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, [and] that the LORD would put his spirit upon them! Numbers 11:27-29
7
Church, law, and society
Paul has already indicated that women can pray and prophesy in church (chapter 11), and a worship service includes two or three people prophesying in turn (14:29-32). This means that it is permissible for women to have formal speaking roles in the church. Paul was apparently forbidding some other type of speech. Just as he did not allow tongue-speakers or prophets to speak out of turn, he did not want women to speak out of turn, saying things in such a way that they were breaking social customs about what is appropriate.
Paul appealed to church custom, the law, and cultural expectations; we will consider how each of these is relevant to the problem that Paul is dealing with.
I am pretty sure that Mr disciple will not bother with this pretty good explanation of the verses he so politely asked me to consider
but anyone can read it, so hopefully context, customs and common sense will prevail just the same
and I especially like the fact that Paul told others to keep silent also...not just women
that would easily go towards identifying the actual problem in the church which was not women, but some chaos and disorder
there is plenty more to this article, but that is prob enough for now considering it will be ignored by certain men here anyway
Paul has already indicated that women can pray and prophesy in church (chapter 11), and a worship service includes two or three people prophesying in turn (14:29-32). This means that it is permissible for women to have formal speaking roles in the church. Paul was apparently forbidding some other type of speech. Just as he did not allow tongue-speakers or prophets to speak out of turn, he did not want women to speak out of turn, saying things in such a way that they were breaking social customs about what is appropriate.
Paul appealed to church custom, the law, and cultural expectations; we will consider how each of these is relevant to the problem that Paul is dealing with.
I am pretty sure that Mr disciple will not bother with this pretty good explanation of the verses he so politely asked me to consider
but anyone can read it, so hopefully context, customs and common sense will prevail just the same
and I especially like the fact that Paul told others to keep silent also...not just women
that would easily go towards identifying the actual problem in the church which was not women, but some chaos and disorder
there is plenty more to this article, but that is prob enough for now considering it will be ignored by certain men here anyway
7
I should add that there are more than 2 considerations or interpretations for the letter written to the Corinthians
certain men are confined to only one conclusion for reasons already entertained
and mr dude disciple, stop yelling at people to read things and get back to you
read my response to your demands (I did so in good faith), answer them properly, and unless you do so, you are just making noise...much like the Corinthian church
certain men are confined to only one conclusion for reasons already entertained
and mr dude disciple, stop yelling at people to read things and get back to you
read my response to your demands (I did so in good faith), answer them properly, and unless you do so, you are just making noise...much like the Corinthian church
L
cool your jets there dude
you are so busy making smoke and sending out flares for your failing interpretations that your anger is getting the best of you
I don't take orders from you and neither does anyone else here
I understand your personality type must be da boss of everyone so tell yourself that is who you are cause no one else is going to
perhaps that will give some peace of mind
so glad you found something you can get so upset about
so should we concur you are simply self taught or is there some other institution to blame your anger on?
you are so busy making smoke and sending out flares for your failing interpretations that your anger is getting the best of you
I don't take orders from you and neither does anyone else here
I understand your personality type must be da boss of everyone so tell yourself that is who you are cause no one else is going to
perhaps that will give some peace of mind
so glad you found something you can get so upset about
so should we concur you are simply self taught or is there some other institution to blame your anger on?
L
Church, law, and society
Paul has already indicated that women can pray and prophesy in church (chapter 11), and a worship service includes two or three people prophesying in turn (14:29-32). This means that it is permissible for women to have formal speaking roles in the church. Paul was apparently forbidding some other type of speech. Just as he did not allow tongue-speakers or prophets to speak out of turn, he did not want women to speak out of turn, saying things in such a way that they were breaking social customs about what is appropriate.
Paul appealed to church custom, the law, and cultural expectations; we will consider how each of these is relevant to the problem that Paul is dealing with.
I am pretty sure that Mr disciple will not bother with this pretty good explanation of the verses he so politely asked me to consider
but anyone can read it, so hopefully context, customs and common sense will prevail just the same
and I especially like the fact that Paul told others to keep silent also...not just women
that would easily go towards identifying the actual problem in the church which was not women, but some chaos and disorder
there is plenty more to this article, but that is prob enough for now considering it will be ignored by certain men here anyway
Paul has already indicated that women can pray and prophesy in church (chapter 11), and a worship service includes two or three people prophesying in turn (14:29-32). This means that it is permissible for women to have formal speaking roles in the church. Paul was apparently forbidding some other type of speech. Just as he did not allow tongue-speakers or prophets to speak out of turn, he did not want women to speak out of turn, saying things in such a way that they were breaking social customs about what is appropriate.
Paul appealed to church custom, the law, and cultural expectations; we will consider how each of these is relevant to the problem that Paul is dealing with.
I am pretty sure that Mr disciple will not bother with this pretty good explanation of the verses he so politely asked me to consider
but anyone can read it, so hopefully context, customs and common sense will prevail just the same
and I especially like the fact that Paul told others to keep silent also...not just women
that would easily go towards identifying the actual problem in the church which was not women, but some chaos and disorder
there is plenty more to this article, but that is prob enough for now considering it will be ignored by certain men here anyway
