Hebrews 10:26-31

[LW97]

What he did say was his flesh had to die SO HE BE SAVED IN THE DAY OF JESUS.

He wasn't 'once saved always saved'. If he was, there would have been no need for him to 'do' something in order for him to be saved when Jesus comes back. God would just have to spank his little bottom and his salvation would not be in jeopardy. But instead Paul says his flesh must die in order for him to be saved when Jesus comes back. He had to repent in order to be saved when Jesus comes back.


Also, notice how this man is being condemned by the law of Moses that the church is so sure is not for the gentiles or the church:

"[/COLOR]11‘If there is a man who lies with his father’s wife, he has uncovered his father’s nakedness; both of them shall surely be put to death, their bloodguiltiness is upon them."-Leviticus 20:11

This talks about physical death.

The Church of Corinthians the Apostle Paul wrote to was very carnal (proofing the existance of carnal Christians). Nowhere will you find one example in which a person lost his salvation.

"But instead Paul says his flesh must die in order for him to be saved when Jesus comes back." No, it doesn't say that.

"[FONT=&quot]To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." (Verse 5)[/FONT]

God bless

 

[Zmouth]

You cannot abuse grace. When you sin, you walk in disgrace. If a man willfull sins, God will not remove his salvation, but chastise him (Hebrews 12:6)

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. James 4:17


And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Dan 12:2

 

[LW97]

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. James 4:17


And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Dan 12:2

Daniel 12:2 is indeed a controversial verse and used by Jehovah's Witnesses and SDA's to teach soul sleep.

 

[tourist]

Daniel 12:2 is indeed a controversial verse and used by Jehovah's Witnesses and SDA's to teach soul sleep.

Not sure why you consider this verse to be controversial. There are many other verses in the bible that say that the dead will be asleep until they are resurrected. SDA's do believe this and I'm starting to believe it too.

 

[LW97]

Not sure why you consider this verse to be controversial. There are many other verses in the bible that say that the dead will be asleep until they are resurrected. SDA's do believe this and I'm starting to believe it too.

Then what did Jesus say to the criminal on the cross? Luke 23:43 gives the answer: "[FONT=&quot]And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."[/FONT]

 

[LW97]

Not sure why you consider this verse to be controversial. There are many other verses in the bible that say that the dead will be asleep until they are resurrected. SDA's do believe this and I'm starting to believe it too.

Also, there are two resurrections. (Revelation 20:6)

 

[Shamah]

Then what did Jesus say to the criminal on the cross? Luke 23:43 gives the answer: "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

In the original text ther were not commas.

Where you plave the comma changes the meaning:

"I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise"

or

"I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise"

 

[Nehemiah6]

Not sure why you consider this verse to be controversial. There are many other verses in the bible that say that the dead will be asleep until they are resurrected. SDA's do believe this and I'm starting to believe it too.

After you have done a proper study of Sheol in the OT, you will discover that (1) sleep is a metaphor for the dead body which lies at rest in the grave and (2) as long as the OT saints went to Sheol (before the resurrection of Christ) they remained quiet and silent in Sheol/Hades (hence "sleeping").

However, after His resurrection, Christ took all the OT saints from Sheol/Hades to the New Jerusalem in Heaven, and they are called "the spirits of just [justified] men made perfect". At the same time after you have studied Acts 7 & 8, you will discover that "sleep" is still used as a metaphor for the dead body in the grave, but the spirits and souls of the saints go directly to Heaven to be with Christ. AND THERE IS NO SLEEPING IN HEAVEN. God and Christ are Life, and the saints in their presence are very much awake and alive.

Soul Sleep is a false doctrine held by those who also adhere to a number of other false doctrines.

 

[LW97]

After you have done a proper study of Sheol in the OT, you will discover that (1) sleep is a metaphor for the dead body which lies at rest in the grave and (2) as long as the OT saints went to Sheol (before the resurrection of Christ) they remained quiet and silent in Sheol/Hades.

However, after His resurrection, Christ took all the OT saints to the New Jerusalem in Heaven and they are called "the spirits of just [justified] men made perfect". At the same time after you have studied Acts 7 & 8, you will discover that "sleep" is still used as a metaphor for the dead body in the grave, but the spirits and souls of the saints go directly to Heaven to be with Christ. AND THERE IS NO SLEEPING IN HEAVEN. God and Christ are Life, and the saints in their presence are very much awake and alive. Soul Sleep is a false doctrine held by those who also adhere to a number of other false doctrines.

AMEN!

The most famous theologian from my country - Martin Luther - also taught that heresy.

 

[Joseppi]

The idea that when my body dies I sleep till Jesus wakes me up in the morning, is not a false doctrine.

John 11:11...Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

 

[LW97]

Something from my website: https://linus4203.wixsite.com/jesusdiedforall/blog/eternal-security

 

[Joseppi]

After you have done a proper study of Sheol in the OT, you will discover that (1) sleep is a metaphor for the dead body which lies at rest in the grave and (2) as long as the OT saints went to Sheol (before the resurrection of Christ) they remained quiet and silent[/B] in Sheol/Hades (hence "sleeping").

However, after His resurrection, Christ took all the OT saints from Sheol/Hades to the New Jerusalem in Heaven, and they are called "the spirits of just [justified] men made perfect". At the same time after you have studied Acts 7 & 8, you will discover that "sleep" is still used as a metaphor for the dead body in the grave, but the spirits and souls of the saints go directly to Heaven to be with Christ. AND THERE IS NO SLEEPING IN HEAVEN. God and Christ are Life, and the saints in their presence are very much awake and alive.
Soul Sleep is a false doctrine held by those who also adhere to a number of other false doctrines.

The scriptures don’t teach that Jesus is coming to raise dead bodies to meet their souls and spirits in the air.

 

[Ralph-]

"But instead Paul says his flesh must die in order for him to be saved when Jesus comes back." No, it doesn't say that.

"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." (Verse 5)

God bless

Why does he have to die to saved in the day of Jesus if he is already saved and can't lose it?

Don't talk about divine punishment and all that. We know about that. What you have to explain is why this guy has to die to be saved in the day of Jesus.

Don't get too excited about it. No once saved always saved person has been able to explain it without changing what Paul is actually saying. Paul is plainly saying he must die (whether physically or die to the flesh, doesn't matter) to be saved when Jesus comes back. That's a condition for him to either get saved, or stay saved if he is saved already.

 

[Ralph-]

In the original text ther were not commas.

Where you plave the comma changes the meaning:

"I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise"

or

"I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise"

And there is the story of Lazarus and the rich man.

Between these two examples I believe conscious souls go to await the resurrection of physical bodies at the end of the age. Conscious torment or conscious comfort wait on the other side for each and every one of us depending on whether or not we believed in and lived for Christ in this age.

 

[tourist]

Then what did Jesus say to the criminal on the cross? Luke 23:43 gives the answer: "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Yes, I've wondered about that too. I'm a little conflicted about this but leaning towards being asleep until resurrection verses being in heaven immediately upon death, provided of course, one is saved by the shed blood of Jesus dying on the cross for our sins, repenting of our sins and inviting the Holy Spirit to live in our hearts to comfort and guide us on our spiritual journey until we reach our ultimate destination. You have raised a valid point that merits consideration.

 

[LW97]

Why does he have to die to saved in the day of Jesus if he is already saved and can't lose it?

Don't talk about divine punishment and all that. We know about that. What you have to explain is why this guy has to die to be saved in the day of Jesus.

Don't get too excited about it. No once saved always saved person has been able to explain it without changing what Paul is actually saying. Paul is plainly saying he must die (whether physically or die to the flesh, doesn't matter) to be saved when Jesus comes back. That's a condition for him to either get saved, or stay saved if he is saved already.

Well, first off, God's chastisement (Hebrews 12:6) plays a role in this one. God prevents his children from falling off. It it wasn't for God's power, we could lose our salvation easily.

Also, if he had been lost and put to death, he would have gone to hell. He definitely was saved and if it prevented him from losing it... in some way, yes. But it were not men who prevented him from jumping off the narrow way, but God. Paul was called by God.

This here is an example of the sin unto death (1 John 5:16). I think my expaination was a very shallow. Now I try my best I can. God decided that this man sinned to much and gave him two choices: either to die and go to heaven or to repent and stay physically alive. I wonder why this man repented, I would have definitely chosen physical death. But well, maybe he was unsure about his salvation.

We see, God is a caring father and gives us a free will, but once we start reaching the edge, he gets us back or kills us. God bless

 

[LW97]

Yes, I've wondered about that too. I'm a little conflicted about this but leaning towards being asleep until resurrection verses being in heaven immediately upon death, provided of course, one is saved by the shed blood of Jesus dying on the cross for our sins, repenting of our sins and inviting the Holy Spirit to live in our hearts to comfort and guide us on our spiritual journey until we reach our ultimate destination. You have raised a valid point that merits consideration.

No offense, but I think you missunderstood the word "repent". it means "to think different.

 

[Ralph-]

God decided that this man sinned to much and gave him two choices: either to die and go to heaven or to repent and stay physically alive. I wonder why this man repented, I would have definitely chosen physical death. But well, maybe he was unsure about his salvation.

We see, God is a caring father and gives us a free will, but once we start reaching the edge, he gets us back or kills us. God bless

You're doing what every once saved always saved person does with the passage. You're not answering the question.

If he's already saved and can't lose it, why does he have to repent to be saved?

Or, why is physical death a requirement to be saved if he's already saved and can't lost it?

 

[Deade]

You claim Jesus is coming for a secret rapture, and He will be coming into only the air. If Jesus comes into the atmosphere, that is still "a coming." There is no secret rapture there are saints dying all during the tribulation.

When Christ comes back the very next time, He will encircle the earth while the asleep in Christ will rise and join Him. 1 Thess. 4:17: “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." Then those that are alive will be changed into incorruptible spirits to join him.

Jesus said that no man has ascended to heaven. John 3:13: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

Don't give me a reference to the transfiguration when Jesus appeared with Moses and Elijah. Matt. 17:9: “And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.”

This is an example of a vision. But a vision is just a vision, we should not draw doctrine from them. A vision is an exception to what is literal. All the patriarchs in Hebrews 11 are still waiting to get to heaven. I remind you this was written after the cross. No, Hebrews 12 doesn't prove anyone in heaven. It is just a reference to Zion.

Everyone says that we will have glorified bodies, after our resurrection. I don't agree, we will be spirit. John said: John 4:24: “God is spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth.” and in 1 John 3:2: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is." Sounds like we will be spirits too. God could be among us and invisible like His angels are. He could make Himself visible and has done so in the past.

Luke 21:25-27: “And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. The sea and the waves roaring; and then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”

When Jesus comes back, His countenance will be like the sunrise: glorious!

 

[LW97]

You're doing what every once saved always saved person does with the passage. You're not answering the question.

If he's already saved and can't lose it, why does he have to repent to be saved?

Or, why is physical death a requirement to be saved if he's already saved and can't lost it?

1) Well, he had to repent to stay physically alive. Verse 5 clearly says he also would have gone to heaven if he didn't repent. A murdered person doesn't automatically go to heaven only because he got killed. So there is no doubt he was saved before.
2) If it wasn't for God's chastisement, he could easily have lost it. You know there is a sin unto death (John 6:15). Yeah, it's sin unto physical death, but if it wasn't for God's chastisement, it would turn into sin unto spiritual death. We can see that the order came from God, not from Paul who spoke through the Holy Spirit ("...[FONT=&quot]absent in body, but present in spirit...")[/FONT]

God bless