once saved always saved?

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Ralph-

Guest
Perhaps you err to think those who fall away truly believed. Maybe they just thought they did, as you said in your last post.
Among those who 'fall away' there are those who never believed, and there are those who did believe.

But this is hardly an issue since either way that person is lost. What does it matter if you never truly believed or if you stopped a a genuine belief in Christ if either way you will not be saved when Christ returns? None, of course.
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
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Don't get confused. If you are not producing the fruit of the Spirit you show that you do not have the Spirit. The person who is languishing in his old life unchanged and does not respond to exhortations to walk according to the Spirit does not have the change of life that comes from being born again that they think they do.

Lot's of people in the church today think their dead faith is saving faith. They are deceived. If they do not respond to the truth that the faith that justifies all by itself is the faith that then changes them into a different person then they are simply proving that they are not born again.

People can get mad about this if they want, and continue in their old lives, but I'm convinced born again people who aren't producing fruit who hear this truth will rise up in righteous indignation and seek to produce the fruit that they do not presently have in their lives.

It's all in how a person responds to the truth. We know who belongs to the truth and who does not by how they handle the truth about the necessity of the believer to produce works of righteousness (or else they are not born again).
Dead faith is saving faith. Hebrews 11:1, romans 4:5. Sure you are living a different life? :)
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
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Among those who 'fall away' there are those who never believed, and there are those who did believe.

But this is hardly an issue since either way that person is lost. What does it matter if you never truly believed or if you stopped a a genuine belief in Christ if either way you will not be saved when Christ returns? None, of course.
There is no such thing as stopping to believe. Our spirit cannot sin and therefore not depart from the faith. Only our flesh can.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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I know that you understand. My post directed to magenta.

In fact, the only difference between me and you in this matter is I believe the believer can stop believing, you believe they can't.
You know my thoughts as I know yours.
I believe a genuine beliver will not lose salvation, you do.
It comes down to faith.

Where I disagree with if your thoughts that you have expressed (and I have heard you correctly)
You believe that if a believer stops believing then that's it.
No way back into the fold.

I'm sure I asked you in the past if that's the case and I'm sure you said yes.

So does that make you neither a Calvanist or Arminian?
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
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Those people had religion, but never were born again. See the Roman Catholics :)
20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

BY KNOWING OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST

What kind of Frank Gehry engineering does it take to make this mean they didn't know our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Among those who 'fall away' there are those who never believed, and there are those who did believe.

But this is hardly an issue since either way that person is lost. What does it matter if you never truly believed or if you stopped a a genuine belief in Christ if either way you will not be saved when Christ returns? None, of course.
Of course it matters, and your saying it does not is again ridiculously nonsensical considering how much time and effort you have invested in the subject. If a true believer cannot fall away, a true believer cannot fall away. Saying it doesn't matter whether one is a true believer or not is asinine.
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
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20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

BY KNOWING OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST

What kind of Frank Gehry engineering does it take to make this mean they didn't know our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?
Satan knows Jesus too.
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
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You know my thoughts as I know yours.
I believe a genuine beliver will not lose salvation, you do.
It comes down to faith.

Where I disagree with if your thoughts that you have expressed (and I have heard you correctly)
You believe that if a believer stops believing then that's it.
No way back into the fold.

I'm sure I asked you in the past if that's the case and I'm sure you said yes.

So does that make you neither a Calvanist or Arminian?
I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Do u know the diffrence between earn and maintain
There is no difference.

the one who has to maintain salvation earns it by doing the work required to maintain it.

Maintaining salvation is called begining in the spirit, yet perfecting in the flesh, this is what paul has to say about it.



[FONT=&quot]Gal 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun [d]by the Spirit, are you now [e]being perfected by the flesh?[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]4[/FONT]
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

BY KNOWING OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST

What kind of Frank Gehry engineering does it take to make this mean they didn't know our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?
knowing of Him isnt faith in Him

___________
romans 1

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

(knowledge of Him.... not faith in Him... these arent born again believers)


18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

(WERE NOT of us.... not born again believers ever otherwise they WOULD have at some point been of us and .... IF THEY WERE OF US THEY NO DOUBT WOULD CONTINUE WITH US)
____________


Hebrews 10:39
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.


(we are not OF THEM that draw back into perition..... they arent born again believers)
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
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You do know who Frank Gehry is, don't you? :)
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
No where in the Bible is 'believing' said to be among the works that constitute the works gospel. In fact, the exact opposite is said about believing. It IS the very thing you must do to be justified and saved.

But if you are sure believing is a work of the works gospel that can not save then post the verse(s).
John 6 it is the work of god we believe in he one he sent.

nice try, but it is not our work of trusting god, it is gods work of earning our faith.

your problem is you do not trust god, if you did, you would never question ifgod would become a being we would stop trusting, because he would never give us a reason to lose faith.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
I wonder how the surgery is going. Keep praying until he returns and posts something..,
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
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He'll come back to find this thread is 100 pages long ... like all the rest :)
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
John Chapter 17



1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


i pray all you in error come to the truth....

its heart wrenching


a child of God

a brother in Christ who has been PROMISED salvation by grace through faith

and TOLD to have confidence comes asking for help before surgery

and the wolves and blind swarm in like vulchers
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
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There is no difference.

the one who has to maintain salvation earns it by doing the work required to maintain it.

Maintaining salvation is called begining in the spirit, yet perfecting in the flesh, this is what paul has to say about it.



Gal 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun [d]by the Spirit, are you now [e]being perfected by the flesh?4
AMEN! The Book of Galatians is my fourth favorite book in the Bible after Genesis, the Psalms and Isaiah.