once saved always saved?

[mailmandan]

20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

BY KNOWING OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST

What kind of Frank Gehry engineering does it take to make this mean they didn't know our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge (Like Judas Iscariot) will make them more accountable at the judgment.

Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature.

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

*Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

 

[RickyZ]

You do know who Frank Gehry is, don't you?

How 2 Peter 2 comes to mean they weren't saved

https://video.search.yahoo.com/sear...=a0298c8db5482aebe2f513cef38b8fbf&action=view

 

[mailmandan]

Is there a proof for Judas ever being saved?

Unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) does not sound like saved to me.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Is there a proof for Judas ever being saved?

no
....

he was a devil before he betrayed Jesus

not of us

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge (Like Judas Iscariot) will make them more accountable at the judgment.

Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature.

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

*Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

bump of agreement

knowing of Him isnt faith in Him

___________
romans 1

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

(knowledge of Him.... not faith in Him... these arent born again believers)


18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

(WERE NOT of us.... not born again believers ever otherwise they WOULD have at some point been of us and .... IF THEY WERE OF US THEY NO DOUBT WOULD CONTINUE WITH US)
____________


Hebrews 10:39
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.


(we are not OF THEM that draw back into perition..... they arent born again believers)

 

[Magenta]

no
....

he was a devil before he betrayed Jesus

not of us

Jesus also said Judas was unclean, and called him the
son of perdition, meaning one doomed to destruction.

 

[mailmandan]

Jesus also said Judas was unclean, and called him the
son of perdition, meaning one doomed to destruction.

Amen! John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost.

Syllogism

1. All given by the Father to Jesus are kept.
2. Judas was not kept.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father

Or, this way.

1. None of those given to Jesus by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
2. Judas is lost.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father.

 

[BillG]

Correct, Mark 3:28-30 states that blaspheming the Holy Spirit is a process.

What's the process?

 

[LW97]

What's the process?

rejecting the good news

 

[Ariel82]

He'll come back to find this thread is 100 pages long ... like all the rest

Hopefully he will take it as a sign he hasn't been forgotten.

 

[LW97]

1 John 3:9. We are dead to sin

 

[Lewiz]

Hopefully he will take it as a sign he hasn't been forgotten.

I don't think so Ariel82. He will see that it's been derailed by a bunch of unproven nonsense about how people think strangers they've never met are automatically saved because they said they accepted Jesus.

Just being realistic here......... The Op seems nice enough, but niceness isn't evidence of anything.

Funny how some people are jumped on for questioning somebody's salvation by their own standards, but then like the High Priest proclaim the same person holy & ready for heaven with no proof or standards at all. The second is judging, while the first is questioning.

How do we know who's saved & who's not? By their fruits shall you know them.

But........ what fruits are we to look for? Niceness? They confess they're a christian? They copy/paste from christian internet sites?

How can we see fruits from their writing, when we don't know if it's their writing or not?

How many atheists have come on here pretending to be a christian, & nearly everyone swallowed their story hook, line, and sinker? How many trolls have done the same?

Have you seen someone consistently quote a scripture, intentionally overlooking the context, skip key words in the verses themselves, twist Strong's meaning by leaving out key words, pervert the meaning in lexicons by leaving out major phrases, & show themselves to be head & shoulders right & righteous above the 19th & 20th century commentators of whom they claim are in error?

That person, by their fruits, is deluded, and spreads his delusion all over this site. For they will fight till the end to spread their heresy as righteousness.

Now, before anyone gets righteous indignation, please note I didn't point fingers, name names or down somebody's dogma.

Sorry for the rant, Ariel. It wasn't meant for you.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

I don't think so Ariel82. He will see that it's been derailed by a bunch of unproven nonsense about how people think strangers they've never met are automatically saved because they said they accepted Jesus.

Just being realistic here......... The Op seems nice enough, but niceness isn't evidence of anything.

Funny how some people are jumped on for questioning somebody's salvation by their own standards, but then like the High Priest proclaim the same person holy & ready for heaven with no proof or standards at all. The second is judging, while the first is questioning.

How do we know who's saved & who's not? By their fruits shall you know them.

But........ what fruits are we to look for? Niceness? They confess they're a christian? They copy/paste from christian internet sites?

How can we see fruits from their writing, when we don't know if it's their writing or not?

How many atheists have come on here pretending to be a christian, & nearly everyone swallowed their story hook, line, and sinker? How many trolls have done the same?

Have you seen someone consistently quote a scripture, intentionally overlooking the context, skip key words in the verses themselves, twist Strong's meaning by leaving out key words, pervert the meaning in lexicons by leaving out major phrases, & show themselves to be head & shoulders right & righteous above the 19th & 20th century commentators of whom they claim are in error?

That person, by their fruits, is deluded, and spreads his delusion all over this site. For they will fight till the end to spread their heresy as righteousness.

Now, before anyone gets righteous indignation, please note I didn't point fingers, name names or down somebody's dogma.

Sorry for the rant, Ariel. It wasn't meant for you.

eh

regardless of your rant ive seen plenty evidence that the op has been given a quickened spirit a new heart (aside from how nice he is)

not everyone here is as new as you are and we have been talking for years testing spirits and beliefs


but ya

i definitely see plenty of wolves and trolls alike on here perverting the gospel and rejecting many biblical truths

many of which i called out on this thread when these false preachers pushed their garbage to a young brother in need of someone further in their walk to answer his questions


this may be the first post i read of yours
i dont know you yet
but welcome to CC, neighbor

i hope this place is a blessing to you

 

[Ralph-]

John 6 it is the work of god we believe in he one he sent.

nice try, but it is not our work of trusting god, it is gods work of earning our faith.

No, God does not do your trusting for you. That's not what Jesus is saying. YOU do the trusting. God gives the faith for you to do your believing, but YOU do the trusting/believing part. And no where in scripture will you find that believing/trusting is a work of the works gospel. You will find the exact opposite.

your problem is you do not trust god, if you did, you would never question ifgod would become a being we would stop trusting, because he would never give us a reason to lose faith.

Wait...........you just got done saying believing is his work. How can you now say we don't stop believing because there is no reason given by God for us to stop believing?

You take away the saved person's believing/trusting and say it's God's work, not ours. Then you turn right around and give the work of believing back to the person by saying they won't stop believing because God never gives them a reason to stop. That's inconsistent.

You need to think your doctrine through a little more.

 

[Ralph-]

There is no difference.

the one who has to maintain salvation earns it by doing the work required to maintain it.

Maintaining salvation is called begining in the spirit, yet perfecting in the flesh, this is what paul has to say about it.


Gal 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun [d]by the Spirit, are you now [e]being perfected by the flesh?4

Please post the passage or verse that says the Galatians after being saved were now trying to perfect themselves by continuing to believe/trust in Christ.

 

[Ralph-]

Of course it matters, and your saying it does not is again ridiculously nonsensical considering how much time and effort you have invested in the subject. If a true believer cannot fall away, a true believer cannot fall away. Saying it doesn't matter whether one is a true believer or not is asinine.

You're not addressing the point.

Why is it important for the fallen, lost person to know that they were never saved to begin rather than that they believed but lost their salvation? Either way they are still lost. Isn't the point here that people believe and be saved, not formulate useless doctrines about not really believing in the first place? What good is that?

 

[Ralph-]

Where I disagree with if your thoughts that you have expressed (and I have heard you correctly)
You believe that if a believer stops believing then that's it.
No way back into the fold.

I'm sure I asked you in the past if that's the case and I'm sure you said yes.

So does that make you neither a Calvanist or Arminian?

That's what I believe.
Once God turns the ex-believer over to his unbelief he will not be allowed to come back to faith in Christ, even if he wants to.

That's definitely not Calvinism, and I have no idea what Arminianism has to say about that. And I don't really care. I just reads my Bible and glean insights and understanding from other believers.

I used to think I was Arminian but when I heard John McArthur explain that doctrine I knew that I was definitely not Arminian. Maybe he was putting an unfair and ridiculous sounding spin on it (because he's Calvinist). I don't know. But as I say, I don't care. I just go by the Bible. And if what I read in the Bible lines up with a certain part of some formally labeled doctrine then good............I guess.

 

[Ralph-]

Our spirit cannot sin and therefore not depart from the faith. Only our flesh can.

This doctrine comes from Gnosticism.

 

[Ralph-]

If believing is not a “work” than what constitutes works of the law?

Believing is not a work of the works gospel. And it certainly is not a work that can not justify! Paul says it is the very thing that you do that can and will justify you.

The mistake is saying that if we do the work of believing/trusting, that makes it a work of the works gospel Wrong! Paul does not define the works gospel as anything you do to be justified. He defines it as any WORK OF THE LAW that you do to be justified. Obviously, he is not saying anything you do to be justified, including your believing, is you trying to justify yourself.

 

[Ralph-]

I always did understand that (1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Galatians 5:19-21; 1 John 3:7-10).

Oh, by the way. I'm hoping you can explain this to budman. Since you believe in 'once saved always saved' he might listen to you. Explain to him the difference between the unsaved sinner and the saint who sins. He says there is zero difference.