Trinity vs. Oneness

[AgeofKnowledge]

At times the Spirit and Christ (as with the Spirit and God) seem to overlap or even become completely interchangeable, as in Romans 8:9–11, where “the Spirit of God,” “the Spirit of Christ” and “Christ in you” all refer to the same reality (on 1 Corinthians 15:45).

Christians may be said to be “in the Spirit” (Rom 8:9; Gal 5:25; cf. Gal 5:16; 1 Cor 12:3) or to have the Spirit in them (Rom 8:11; 1 Cor 3:16; 6:19; Gal 4:6), just as they may be “in Christ” (2 Cor 5:17) or have Christ in them (Gal 2:20); however, 2 Corinthians 3:17 should not be taken as evidence for the identity of Jesus and the Spirit (“The Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom&#8221.

The first occurrence of “Lord” in that passage refers to the wording of Exodus 34:34 LXX (2 Cor 3:16), meaning that when those in this age “turn to the Lord (i.e., God)” as Moses did at Sinai, a veil of spiritual blindness is lifted from their eyes; only now “Lord” signifies “the Spirit” who is the key to knowledge of God.

This is Paul’s interpretation of the OT passage’s meaning which he applies to his conflict with Jews and Jewish Christians. The next verse must also be understood in this context: it is the work of “the Lord who is the Spirit” to transform believers into the image of Christ, the Last Adam, the pattern of a new humanity (2 Cor 3:18).

In the expression “Spirit of Christ” we cannot take the genitive “of” as simply an equal sign (i.e., an epexegetical genitive phrase, meaning “the Spirit which = Christ&#8221. Paul can clearly distinguish the two: only Jesus is described as the Father’s Son (Rom 1:3; Gal 4:4); only he had a human nature (Rom 1:3; 8:3; Gal 4:4; Phil 2:7); only Jesus Christ died “for our sins” (1 Cor 15:3; cf. Rom 5:8; 2 Cor 5:15), was raised and is said to be seated at God’s right hand (Col 3:3; cf. Phil 2:9). Never are these said of the Spirit.

All the elements of personhood are attributed to the Holy Spirit in Scripture. He has a mind (John 14:26): "But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name. will teach you." He has will (1 Cor. 12:ll): "All these are the work of one and the same spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines"; and He has feeling (Ephesians 4:30): "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

Further, personal pronouns ("He" and "His") are attributed to the Holy Spirit: "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come" (John 16:13, emphasis added).

Finally, the activities of a person are ascribed to the Holy Spirit: He searches, knows, speaks, testifies, reveals, convinces, commands, strives, moves, helps, guides, creates, recreates, sanctifies, inspires, intercedes, orders the affairs of the church, and performs miracles (see Strong, ST, 325). There are numerous verses of Scripture to support all of these activities (see Gen. 6:3; Luke 12:12; John 3:8; 16:7-8; Acts 8:29; Rom. 8:26; 1 Cor. 2:ll; Eph. 4:30; 2 Peter 1:21, etc.).

Many times in Scripture one member of the Trinity is speaking to another. This indicates that they are not one and the same person though scripture puts them all together at once as one God even as they are. According to sound biblical, theological, and historical reasoning, the God of the Bible is the God of trinitarian monotheism. He is tri-personal, infinite, indivisible, immutable, eternal, all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving, and absolutely perfect and just. Deviation from any of these attributes results in an unorthodox view of God.

 

[Israel]

Until the lamb takes the scroll out of the hand of the One who sits upon the throne.

Sorry. I don't understand what you are trying to say Char.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Sorry. I don't understand what you are trying to say Char.

He's saying they aren't the same person.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Sorry. I don't understand what you are trying to say Char.

Rev 5:7/ The Lamb takes the scroll from the hand of the One who sits on the throne.

 

[ibewhoibe]

Rev 5:7/ The Lamb takes the scroll from the hand of the One who sits on the throne.

Tell The Truth, This is Checkmate, ThankYou David, Thank You Father, Thank You Jesus,

Ya'll listen to what the Spirit is Saying, and Move on The Father Son and Holy Spirit ( God's Power)

The Trinty Has Spoken

" I Be a Disciple of Jesus Christ " " I be Listening to the Word "

Father if its your will we ask that you open eyes

In Jesus Name we pray Amen

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Tell The Truth, This is Checkmate, ThankYou David, Thank You Father, Thank You Jesus,

Ya'll listen to what the Spirit is Saying, and Move on The Father Son and Holy Spirit ( God's Power)

The Trinty Has Spoken

" I Be a Disciple of Jesus Christ " " I be Listening to the Word "

Father if its your will we ask that you open eyes

In Jesus Name we pray Amen

I'm not sure if you are being serious. I am not being hostile with Israel. We are friends those we disagree on many things. I do not care to checkmate him, just get his view on the issue of Rev 5:7. We can win arguments and lose hearts. If I am mistaken, I apologise. I just wanted you to understand the friendship between Israel and myself.

 

[Israel]

He's saying they aren't the same person.

I agree. I said I see two beings there. What I had meant was that before the birth of Jesus, there was only one being. When God would manifest Himself to man though, it was in the image that would be called His son in Jesus. It is at His death and ressurection that one has become two.

 

[ibewhoibe]

I'm not sure if you are being serious. I am not being hostile with Israel. We are friends those we disagree on many things. I do not care to checkmate him, just get his view on the issue of Rev 5:7. We can win arguments and lose hearts. If I am mistaken, I apologise. I just wanted you to understand the friendship between Israel and myself.

No Sir David, Nor am I trying to be Hostile with Isreal, I have read many post of Israel and I know him to be Christain and a Brother in Christ, There are many in this dispute between what we beleave Oneness vs Trinty, with Scriptures from both side being prsented, I have many Brother's in Christ that are in dispute on this issue its a touchy subject, I dont want to lose heartsof anyone, I'm sorry if I have ofended you are Israel, I was serious by saying Check mate thou , ( My Opinion ) Jesus was the only one worthy to open the seals after taken them from our Father on the Throne, So if there is a rebuttel , I'm for one am wanting to hear it, no insulting intented, It just made me happy this issue might be over as so many have poured out scripters after scripters, AOK just post a long one I was reading and trying to understand where he was comming from, just befor you posted Rev 5:7 and when it came up I open my mouth with Joy as it looked like Case Closed,

Hope you understand I truly dont want to offend anyone.

" I Be Shutting up Now "

 

[charisenexcelcis]

I agree. I said I see two beings there. What I had meant was that before the birth of Jesus, there was only one being. When God would manifest Himself to man though, it was in the image that would be called His son in Jesus. It is at His death and ressurection that one has become two.

I do not believe that God could split into two, but that He was from eternity a complex unity. I do not believe that He is mutable.

 

[phil36]

Call it what you may. The undeniable fact is that the God of the Old testament said that there were NO ONE else. So for a trinity to stand, that would make that statement false no matter how much of the same essence these three beings share. Three is three. And here's more facts. If the Word had life within Himself and the Word was Jesus from all of eternity, how is it that Jesus states that the Father has permitted the Son to now have life within Himself? He is the Word, right? Shouldn't He have already had it?

Hi Israel, thanks for your answer. Of course I wholeheartedly agree with you that God is One of course He is, this is revealed in scripture and it is this fact that seperated Israe'ls God from the religions of multiple Gods around them! Ie, Monotheistic. Can you see what's happened here, there is a difference between the monotheistic God of Israel to surrounding nations of multiple God's.

Now I know you know of the plural names in Hebrew for God! Christianity is a monotheistic. yet God has progressively revealed Himself in scripture as one, yet three persons, co equal, co eternal.

So your are totally correct the God of the OT is monotheistic, and He is the same God from all time and Has revealed Himself progressively throughout.

The New is in the old concealed, and now revealed. the veil has been lifted. from the lesser to the greater, this also will answer Distinctive regarding his supposedly proof text of Corinthians.

i will refer you back to this post::: http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-1-15-17-oneness-pentecostals.html#post356744

Many thanks

Phil

 

[Israel]

No Sir David, Nor am I trying to be Hostile with Isreal, I have read many post of Israel and I know him to be Christain and a Brother in Christ, There are many in this dispute between what we beleave Oneness vs Trinty, with Scriptures from both side being prsented, I have many Brother's in Christ that are in dispute on this issue its a touchy subject, I dont want to lose heartsof anyone, I'm sorry if I have ofended you are Israel, I was serious by saying Check mate thou , ( My Opinion ) Jesus was the only one worthy to open the seals after taken them from our Father on the Throne, So if there is a rebuttel , I'm for one am wanting to hear it, no insulting intented, It just made me happy this issue might be over as so many have poured out scripters after scripters, AOK just post a long one I was reading and trying to understand where he was comming from, just befor you posted Rev 5:7 and when it came up I open my mouth with Joy as it looked like Case Closed,

Hope you understand I truly dont want to offend anyone.

" I Be Shutting up Now "

Again, Ibe, I am not offended and am in total agreement on that issue. Jesus was the only one worthy. So to sum up the whole point of the matter I am trying to reach to all is that God (the Father) is Spirit. That Spirit takes form in His children, Jesus being the express image of that Spirit. The Bible says that angels always behold the face of God. Jesus is the only one born of men to do the same. For He truly is worthy.

 

[phil36]

I have a question for you Israel'

If the Son did not eternally exist with the Father as a distinct Person why is it that the “Son” can say, “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had [eichon, or “shared”] with You before the world was” (emphasis added)?

Thus, how did the Son have (literally, actively “possessed&#8221 glory with (para) the Father before time if the Son did not exist before Bethlehem?

 

[ibewhoibe]

Again, Ibe, I am not offended and am in total agreement on that issue. Jesus was the only one worthy. So to sum up the whole point of the matter I am trying to reach to all is that God (the Father) is Spirit. That Spirit takes form in His children, Jesus being the express image of that Spirit. The Bible says that angels always behold the face of God. Jesus is the only one born of men to do the same. For He truly is worthy.

Oh Man Thanks Brother, I truly didnt mean it to sound the way it did, as I'm one that has been confussed by so many Scripter's on the matter, I've always beleaved in the Trinty my-self ( The Father Son and Holy Spirit) but never looked at them as 3- persons, for one I think of the Holy Spirit as our Fathers Power not a Person, So now what does that make me " In trouble with phil, and AOk, and who ever, To me what matters is I love Jesus, if I can learn differant it wont be by Darts thou, ( lol )

" I Be Going To Sleep Now "

 

[Israel]

I do not believe that God could split into two, but that He was from eternity a complex unity. I do not believe that He is mutable.

John 17:3

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

I'm not trying to bring attention to the word 'only' in this verse but to the word 'true'. The Bible says that we are gods. Jesus is God in the image of the only TRUE God. If a man marries a wife, she then takes on his name. Children brought about from that union take on that name as well. Now as a family, you have a name and as a family, I have a name as well. But we all are of the family of mankind. The TRUE God chose a particular nation out of Man to be a husband to for the purpose of producing godly seed. This has been accomplished in the birth of Jesus. Now apply the same principle to this marriage. The wife takes on God's name. Children of this union takes on God's name as well. They are no longer in the family of man or mankind but of the family of God or Godkind. God's whole purpose for creation is to reproduce Himself in His children. If we could only phathom even the tiniest tip of what God has in store for those who love Him, this world would be filled with overflowing joy of the Spirit.

 

[Israel]

I have a question for you Israel'

If the Son did not eternally exist with the Father as a distinct Person why is it that the “Son” can say, “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had [eichon, or “shared”] with You before the world was” (emphasis added)?

Thus, how did the Son have (literally, actively “possessed”) glory with (para) the Father before time if the Son did not exist before Bethlehem?

Jesus is the image of the Father and He knows this. This image, before Jesus' birth was glorified by God. Not that Jesus personally was there, but the IMAGE was. You thought it was crazy of me to say that it was like God put on a Jesus suit in the Old testament, but I was just trying to give a simple example of what I meant We also made in the image of God changed that glory into something corruptible. God, thru Jesus, restored this image to it's former glory before the world was.

 

[phil36]

Hi Israel,

Thanks for replying and I'll have to make this my last reply for tonight..bed time. I know what you are saying, however, you have actually not answered the question.

If the Son did not eternally exist with the Father as a distinct Person why is it that the “Son” can say, “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had [eichon, or “shared”] with You before the world was” (emphasis added)?

Thus, how did the Son have (literally, actively “possessed&#8221 glory with (para) the Father before time if the Son did not exist before Bethlehem?

it was not an image, although Jesus does reflect the image of God, as He shares the attributes of God, but here we see a distinct difference that just image.. He (Jesus) was with God, not an image He was WITH God, and secondly , He shared God;s attribute of glory.

anyhow thanks for your reply.

Phil

 

[Israel]

Hi Israel,

Thanks for replying and I'll have to make this my last reply for tonight..bed time. I know what you are saying, however, you have actually not answered the question.

If the Son did not eternally exist with the Father as a distinct Person why is it that the “Son” can say, “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had [eichon, or “shared”] with You before the world was” (emphasis added)?

Thus, how did the Son have (literally, actively “possessed”) glory with (para) the Father before time if the Son did not exist before Bethlehem?

it was not an image, although Jesus does reflect the image of God, as He shares the attributes of God, but here we see a distinct difference that just image.. He (Jesus) was with God, not an image He was WITH God, and secondly , He shared God;s attribute of glory.

anyhow thanks for your reply.

Phil

Hi Phil, We must approach it using common sense as well. He had glory along with the Father, not as a seperate being, but in the image of the Father. Remember, the Father is Spirit, glorified in that image. The image, being glorified as well, because it was the form of that Spirit. Now if the Son was eternal with the Father as you explain it, there had to be atleast two seperate beings which would make verses in the Old testament false. The only way for both statements to coincide with each other is that the Father, in the OT manifested Himself in the image of the Son as no man saw the true face of the Father. But remember, that image wasn't the Son until the birth of Jesus. Before then, this image spoke as the Father. The Word was God.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

John 17:3

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

I'm not trying to bring attention to the word 'only' in this verse but to the word 'true'. The Bible says that we are gods. Jesus is God in the image of the only TRUE God. If a man marries a wife, she then takes on his name. Children brought about from that union take on that name as well. Now as a family, you have a name and as a family, I have a name as well. But we all are of the family of mankind. The TRUE God chose a particular nation out of Man to be a husband to for the purpose of producing godly seed. This has been accomplished in the birth of Jesus. Now apply the same principle to this marriage. The wife takes on God's name. Children of this union takes on God's name as well. They are no longer in the family of man or mankind but of the family of God or Godkind. God's whole purpose for creation is to reproduce Himself in His children. If we could only phathom even the tiniest tip of what God has in store for those who love Him, this world would be filled with overflowing joy of the Spirit.

Psalms 82 was speaking of God judging the spiritual rulers (the gods) which He had given authority over the earth. These rulers were being judged and humbled. When Jesus uses it, He is pointing out the hypocrisy of those who would grasp at spiritual rulership, sitting in the judgement seat of God, and yet then accuse Him of blaspheme. This cannot be compared with His diety. I think of more concern for me is your statement about the birth of Jesus. Don't lose sight that Jesus was not conceived by sexual intercourse but as a miracle brought about by the power of the Holy Spirit. God did not reproduce Jesus, nor does our adoption as His children compare to the eternal Sonship of Jesus Christ.

 

[Israel]

Psalms 82 was speaking of God judging the spiritual rulers (the gods) which He had given authority over the earth. These rulers were being judged and humbled. When Jesus uses it, He is pointing out the hypocrisy of those who would grasp at spiritual rulership, sitting in the judgement seat of God, and yet then accuse Him of blaspheme. This cannot be compared with His diety. I think of more concern for me is your statement about the birth of Jesus. Don't lose sight that Jesus was not conceived by sexual intercourse but as a miracle brought about by the power of the Holy Spirit. God did not reproduce Jesus, nor does our adoption as His children compare to the eternal Sonship of Jesus Christ.

If God was judging spiritual rulers (the gods) whom He had given authority over the earth, is that not what He is doing physically with the earthly rulers (the gods) who were given authority as well? God cannot have children by sexual intercourse. That is of the world. We are to become children the same way Jesus did by that same miracle and power. A spirit cannot conceive by intercourse and this is why we were made. To do that in the flesh. Jesus is also adopted and to deny this is to deny that He came in the flesh. That fleshly part of Him was born of a woman and adopted as a Son.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

In addressing the “gods” (in Hebrew, ˒elōhîm), God is not acknowledging pagan deities or recognizing the existence of other supernatural beings like himself; rather, he is addressing the earthly judges and administrators of his law whom he has set up to represent him. These administrators, functioning as magistrates in the divinely ordained state were to bring a measure of immediate relief from the injustices and brutalities of life.

This usage of the word ˒elōhîm is not as unusual as it might appear at first. Other passages refer to this class of Israelite rulers and judges as God’s representatives on earth. Exodus 21:6, using the same word, orders the slave who voluntarily wishes to be indentured for life to be taken “before the judges.” Likewise, Exodus 22:8 advises the owner who complains of a theft, even when no thief has been found, to “appear before the judges.” Using the same word, the psalmist affirmed in Psalm 138:1, “I will praise you, O Lord, with all my heart; before the ‘gods’ [better rendered ‘rulers’ or ‘judges’] I will sing your praise.”

Therefore, it should not be altogether surprising that Psalm 82:1 should use this same word to refer to the executive or judicial branches of government—or that scholars have translated the word as “gods” in the past. In fact, Psalm 82:6 makes the case crystal clear by making all believers who “are sons of the Most High” to be “gods.”

In John 10:34, when accused of blasphemy, our Lord appealed to Psalm 82:6 by saying, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods’?” In so doing, Jesus was demonstrating that the title could be attached to certain men “to whom the word of God came” (Jn 10:35), and therefore there could not be any prima facie objections lodged against his claim to be divine. There was a legitimate attachment of the word ˒elōhîm to those people who had been specially prepared by God to administer his law and word to the people.

Ever since Genesis 9:6, God had transferred to humankind the execution of his personal prerogative of determining life and death and had instituted among them an office that bore the sword. God had transferred the exercise of his power to these subordinate “gods” without thereby divesting himself of ultimate say.

God now sits in judgment of these magistrates, for all they do goes on before his eyes. The question from on high is “How long will you defend the unjust and show partiality to the wicked?” This is the great assembly over which our Lord presides and the ones he now questions for their shabby handling of the complaints of the oppressed. But there is no hint of a belief in many gods or goddesses.

Nor does God thereby imply they have the divine nature exclusive to the Trinity. It is simply a case where one term, ˒elōhîm, must do double duty, referring not only to God but also to his special servants appointed for the unique tasks described in these contexts.

Psalms 82 was speaking of God judging the spiritual rulers (the gods) which He had given authority over the earth. These rulers were being judged and humbled. When Jesus uses it, He is pointing out the hypocrisy of those who would grasp at spiritual rulership, sitting in the judgement seat of God, and yet then accuse Him of blaspheme. This cannot be compared with His diety. I think of more concern for me is your statement about the birth of Jesus. Don't lose sight that Jesus was not conceived by sexual intercourse but as a miracle brought about by the power of the Holy Spirit. God did not reproduce Jesus, nor does our adoption as His children compare to the eternal Sonship of Jesus Christ.