Not By Works

[BillG]

I am going the wrong way according to you and about 4 other people on this forum, which makes up about .000000000000000000001 of the Christian community. That is not scary to me, especially since you are willing to call me Cain because I like to do good works out of love for Jesus. Wow, what a devil incarnate.

Actually I think you will find its 0.00004815

 

[benhur]

soooo soooo soooo many times have you distorted whats being said in scripture to mean something other than what it actually means to push your head canon which gives glory to the works of men and attempts to deny Jesus His earned glory


Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

(using birth as an earthly example to help the lost Nicodemus who believed in works and didnt understand spiritual things to explain something spiritual to him)

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

(again Nicodemus is unable to understand this spiritual lesson even with an earthly example of birth so he uses his earthly reasoning to question Jesus about being born of flesh two times)

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(still speaking of brith and trying to relate the two.... born of water = anatomical fluid =born of flesh and born of the Spirit = when God makes His children new)

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

(again further explaining the two births.... flesh = natural birth Spirit = born of God)


7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again......



it's not born again again

born, born of a cerimony being dipped in water, born of spirit


it's born < natural birth > again < born of God



heres one example of truth you reject as some weak attempt to keep your false gospel alive in your head

There is one thing to twist the scripture to fit my theology, there is another to have a different interpretation than you do.

I simply have a different interpretation than you do. This does not make me satan. You are making me out to be satan incarnate, because I don't tow your line.

Christians are all over the place and have many interpretations about what it means to be born of water and born of the sprit. Yours is just 1. Mine is another. So stop with you are satan. I have my right to believe what I think is right. You have your right to believe what you think is right. I will never call you satan or even intimate you are cain or son of cain. So stop calling me names.

Have an adult discussion about these things and who knows, you may be able to persuade me to your interpretation. But calling me bad names, does not bode well from one Christian to another Christian.

 

[benhur]

Actually I think you will find its 0.00004815

Good one.

 

[benhur]

Thank you for this post, I have already talk to decon about this subject. You are a lier and a deceiver. You twist and distort God's holy word to your own destruction. I have not seen one ounce of humility in you and only your prideful display of your wonderful works, you have gone the way of Cain and the Pharisees. You are your own savior and redeemer, no room for Jesus Christ.

Go tell your twisted and deceitful lies some where far away.

In my humble opinion, one is saved unto good works. Do you agree with that?

 

[benhur]

Right! We are saved by Jesus' works inside us. If it was by our works, we would be condemned, inasmuch as we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away (Isaiah 64.6).

I agree, it is Jesus works inside us. So would you say that if a Christian says they are saved, but exhibit very little good works, and thinks that good works are a burden not to be borne, that Jesus is working inside of them?

 

[NoNameMcgee]

There is one thing to twist the scripture to fit my theology, there is another to have a different interpretation than you do.

I simply have a different interpretation than you do. This does not make me satan. You are making me out to be satan incarnate, because I don't tow your line.

Christians are all over the place and have many interpretations about what it means to be born of water and born of the sprit. Yours is just 1. Mine is another. So stop with you are satan. I have my right to believe what I think is right. You have your right to believe what you think is right. I will never call you satan or even intimate you are cain or son of cain. So stop calling me names.

Have an adult discussion about these things and who knows, you may be able to persuade me to your interpretation. But calling me bad names, does not bode well from one Christian to another Christian.

your "interpretation" of the many many verses we have went over paint a false gospel that doesnt agree with the bible

it twists and distorts many verses
denies others outright
questions the character of God


and this was a discussion until you continued to use shady tactics to impute false beliefs to others

using straw men and disingenuous remarks to try and prove a point that in itself is anti-truth


now im giving you reproof hoping you come to the truth

this hasnt been a discussion for awhile ben
i have seen no truth or good fruit from you


im willing to step back and just leave you to my brothers and sisters

given even now you play dumb and act as if you havent constantly made sly remarks and passive aggressive comments

imputed beliefs to people who didnt hold them

this SHOWS you dont WANT a back and forth

you want to teach your gospel and stump sons and daughters of God


this is my view of you based from what ive seen of you


maybe im hardheaded and far from perfect

maybe i speak too much and dont proof read my posts

but im honest and not trying to get over on anyone here


but i believe that YOU believe in works salvation (your own righteousness to save you regardless of your silly semantics... this is based on all the things you add to "saved by grace through faith")

i also believe you function as a wolf so long as you push this false gospel

and do not rest your hope entirely in Jesus Christ (not adding works of men on top of this)

if i am wrong here

feel free to report me
and mods
feel free to ban me i wont make a big stink or multi accounts like some do

im trying my best to shine light on the truth and cast down doctrines which are not of God


not "call names" like you suggest

 

[BillG]

Good one.

Sorry that was my accountants brain taking over.
You can tell I lead an exciting life

 

[benhur]

As I have said before, OSAS is not a doctrine of the Church but "Eternal Security" is.

Question: "Eternal security - is it biblical?"

"Our eternal security is purchased by Christ, promised by the Father, and sealed by the Holy Spirit."

Answer: When people come to know Christ as their Savior, they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their eternal security. Jude 24 declares, "To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy." God's power is able to keep the believer from falling. It is up to Him, not us, to present us before His glorious presence. Our eternal security is a result of God keeping us, not us maintaining our own salvation.


The Lord Jesus Christ proclaimed, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:28-29b). Both Jesus and the Father have us firmly grasped in their hand. Who could possibly separate us from the grip of both the Father and the Son?

Ephesians 4:30 tells us that believers are "sealed for the day of redemption." If believers did not have eternal security, the sealing could not truly be unto the day of redemption, but only to the day of sinning, apostasy, or disbelief. John 3:15-16 tells us that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If a person were to be promised eternal life, but then have it taken away, it was never "eternal" to begin with. If eternal security is not true, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error.

The most powerful argument for eternal security is Romans 8:38-39, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Our eternal security is based on God's love for those whom He has redeemed. Our eternal security is purchased by Christ, promised by the Father, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

These are wonderful scriptures and I believe they are telling the truth.

Now interpret John 15:1-2, especially when Jesus says that "every branch IN ME that beareth not fruit, he taketh away.
So interpret these items in the saying:
1) who are the 'branches'?
2) what does Jesus mean when he says "every branch IN ME"?
3) who is 'he'?
4) what does Jesus mean, 'he taketh away'?
5) who is 'he' going to take away"
6) where is 'he' going to take them?

Thank you for your analysis.

 

[Magenta]

​

 

[TruthTalk]

In my humble opinion, one is saved unto good works. Do you agree with that?

The Crucified One is who saves, our good works have nothing to do with our salvation. Nobody here believes your fake gospel, you are just too full of yourself to let Jesus save you. Just a "Modern day Pharisee" is what you are.

 

[BillG]

These are wonderful scriptures and I believe they are telling the truth.

Now interpret John 15:1-2, especially when Jesus says that "every branch IN ME that beareth not fruit, he taketh away.
So interpret these items in the saying:
1) who are the 'branches'?
2) what does Jesus mean when he says "every branch IN ME"?
3) who is 'he'?
4) what does Jesus mean, 'he taketh away'?
5) who is 'he' going to take away"
6) where is 'he' going to take them?

Thank you for your analysis.

Not answering for TT here.

But is it possible

The branches that bore fruit were the 11 disciples and all true disciples of the church.
And the fruitless branches represent Judas and those who in fact were never true disciples to begin with?

This passage falls in the scripture of John. (By the way I love these chapters)

Before this passage Jesus says one of you will betray me, then he gives the new commandment, then he tells Peter you will deny me, then he says "Im the way truth and life, then he promises the Holy Spirit.

Then we have the vine.

Jesus knew what was about to happen, with Judas and with Peter (I surmise with Thomas as well)

Peter cut the High Priests servant ear off.

He prayed for all belivers in these chapters, he knew Gethsemane was approaching, he knew crucifixion was imminent.

Judas betrays Jesus, Peter denied Jesus 3 times.
Peter is restored (and I still put it out there that Peter never asked to be forgiven of his of denying Jesus)

Judas was not restored.

Why not?

I would say it was because he never knew the real Jesus in the first place.
He was never a true disciple in the first place.

He was a tare and Jesus knew that, never a genuine beliver to begin with.
He was looking to a Jesus that would overthrow Rome.

I put it out there that the branches cut off are not genuine belivers, they never knew him, have no interest in knowing him and have no interest in wanting to be like him.

Have never made him Lord and have no interest in doing so.

Those in the vine even though they wither, bear good fruit but also bear bad fruit will acknowledge they bear bad fruit.

That's why they are pruned and not cut off.

Fruit

Galatians 5:22-25
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Fruit produces works.
Genuine belivers will be pruned to bear more fruit.
One tree that bears one apple will be pruned to produce two and so on.
It can only be pruned if it's planted in the soil.

For me if it was never planted in the soil or the vine in the first place then they had no true faith.

The true faith that saves, just like Peter and unlike Judas

 

[benhur]

your "interpretation" of the many many verses we have went over paint a false gospel that doesnt agree with the bible

it twists and distorts many verses
denies others outright
questions the character of God


and this was a discussion until you continued to use shady tactics to impute false beliefs to others

using straw men and disingenuous remarks to try and prove a point that in itself is anti-truth


now im giving you reproof hoping you come to the truth

this hasnt been a discussion for awhile ben
i have seen no truth or good fruit from you


im willing to step back and just leave you to my brothers and sisters

given even now you play dumb and act as if you havent constantly made sly remarks and passive aggressive comments

imputed beliefs to people who didnt hold them

this SHOWS you dont WANT a back and forth

you want to teach your gospel and stump sons and daughters of God


this is my view of you based from what ive seen of you


maybe im hardheaded and far from perfect

maybe i speak too much and dont proof read my posts

but im honest and not trying to get over on anyone here


but i believe that YOU believe in works salvation (your own righteousness to save you regardless of your silly semantics... this is based on all the things you add to "saved by grace through faith")

i also believe you function as a wolf so long as you push this false gospel

and do not rest your hope entirely in Jesus Christ (not adding works of men on top of this)

if i am wrong here

feel free to report me
and mods
feel free to ban me i wont make a big stink or multi accounts like some do

im trying my best to shine light on the truth and cast down doctrines which are not of God


not "call names" like you suggest

You called me a 'liar'. Is that not a 'name'? In fact a horrible name?

I do not report, we are adults.

I do have a particular theology, I interpret scripture based on that theology. So do you. We do not have the same theology and therefore we interpret scripture differently. That is not unusual.

You believe in ES and I do not. I believe that being born again is not the end, and from that time to the resurrection you are guaranteed eternal life. You do. Again our differences are not that unusual. I believe that being born again is just the beginning, and that we are born again unto good works in Jesus. We believe in Jesus, we trust Jesus, we do not lose sight of the cross, we believe in his grace, and the result of being born a new person in Christ is a disposition towards following Jesus and doing the kind of good works that he did.

If this theology is so wicked, I stand before Jesus and take my case before him. But I will not stand before him and declare how great works I have done and I deserve to be saved. What I will do is ask for his mercy and his love for a sinner like me.

 

[benhur]

Not answering for TT here.

But is it possible

The branches that bore fruit were the 11 disciples and all true disciples of the church.
And the fruitless branches represent Judas and those who in fact were never true disciples to begin with?

This passage falls in the scripture of John. (By the way I love these chapters)

Before this passage Jesus says one of you will betray me, then he gives the new commandment, then he tells Peter you will deny me, then he says "Im the way truth and life, then he promises the Holy Spirit.

Then we have the vine.

Jesus knew what was about to happen, with Judas and with Peter (I surmise with Thomas as well)

Peter cut the High Priests servant ear off.

He prayed for all belivers in these chapters, he knew Gethsemane was approaching, he knew crucifixion was imminent.

Judas betrays Jesus, Peter denied Jesus 3 times.
Peter is restored (and I still put it out there that Peter never asked to be forgiven of his of denying Jesus)

Judas was not restored.

Why not?

I would say it was because he never knew the real Jesus in the first place.
He was never a true disciple in the first place.

He was a tare and Jesus knew that, never a genuine beliver to begin with.
He was looking to a Jesus that would overthrow Rome.

I put it out there that the branches cut off are not genuine belivers, they never knew him, have no interest in knowing him and have no interest in wanting to be like him.

Have never made him Lord and have no interest in doing so.

Those in the vine even though they wither, bear good fruit but also bear bad fruit will acknowledge they bear bad fruit.

That's why they are pruned and not cut off.

Fruit

Galatians 5:22-25
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Fruit produces works.
Genuine belivers will be pruned to bear more fruit.
One tree that bears one apple will be pruned to produce two and so on.
It can only be pruned if it's planted in the soil.

For me if it was never planted in the soil or the vine in the first place then they had no true faith.

The true faith that saves, just like Peter and unlike Judas

You kind of answered 1 of the questions. If you are going to answer the post, answer all the questions.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

You called me a 'liar'. Is that not a 'name'? In fact a horrible name?

I do not report, we are adults.

I do have a particular theology, I interpret scripture based on that theology. So do you. We do not have the same theology and therefore we interpret scripture differently. That is not unusual.

You believe in ES and I do not. I believe that being born again is not the end, and from that time to the resurrection you are guaranteed eternal life. You do. Again our differences are not that unusual. I believe that being born again is just the beginning, and that we are born again unto good works in Jesus. We believe in Jesus, we trust Jesus, we do not lose sight of the cross, we believe in his grace, and the result of being born a new person in Christ is a disposition towards following Jesus and doing the kind of good works that he did.

If this theology is so wicked, I stand before Jesus and take my case before him. But I will not stand before him and declare how great works I have done and I deserve to be saved. What I will do is ask for his mercy and his love for a sinner like me.

i dont feel like i was lying when i said that

or falsely accusing you

but at this moment you actually seem to be very open and genuine

im sorry ben

im willing to forget everything
drop it
and start fresh

i wont bring up any past comments about you and
please do not try to be passive aggressive or bait me

but how can you say you believe we are saved by grace through faith

then add works as requirements?
scripture clearly tells us not to do this

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[benhur]

The Crucified One is who saves, our good works have nothing to do with our salvation. Nobody here believes your fake gospel, you are just too full of yourself to let Jesus save you. Just a "Modern day Pharisee" is what you are.

I did not say that, I said one is save (by the Crucified One) unto good works? Right? or Wrong?

If you do not answer my post 64,568 I will know you are just a container of hot air.

 

[dcontroversal]

Think about it. I never leave you or forsake you even if you spit on me and deny the HS. I force you to have eternal life.

ALL manner of sin against the Son of an shall be forgiven and blasphemy of the Holy Spirit boils down to unbelief into the work of Christ as from GOD...a man that will not believe cannot be forgiven......THINK ABOUT THAT and lose your false dogma.....SEE....no matter how you twit up and deny the truth of eternal security it always comes back to your erroneous view.....wow man....have a piece of cake!

 

[dcontroversal]

Tell me one scripture I have used to distort the bible?

ALMOST every one you quote........

 

[BillG]

You kind of answered 1 of the questions. If you are going to answer the post, answer all the questions.

Firstly I would say you come across as aggressive.
That I do not appreciate.
Secondly I gave my thoughts.
Thirdly you did not tell me what questions I did not address.

Therefore I can't answer you.

I am not a mind reader.

Personally I feel I answered all your questions.

 

[dcontroversal]

Remember what Decon says, ES is the doctrine of probably only about 10% of the churches. OSAS is probably the doctrine of another 20%, and the other 30% mix grace and faith and works, and the other 40% are all over the place.

Pull up my quote above that indicates the percentages and break down.....I never said, implied and or even indicated what you posted above.....You know..SATAN embellished what God said in the garden by ADDING to what was said.......and the implication is obvious....

 

[TruthTalk]

I did not say that, I said one is save (by the Crucified One) unto good works? Right? or Wrong?

If you do not answer my post 64,568 I will know you are just a container of hot air.

You are just a "Modern day Pharisee", with rules and regulations, does and don'ts. The fact that you believe you can lose your eternal salvation is proof of your false gospel. And after 140 pages not one person has given you a "like sticker", not one. Why? because nobody believes you, you have gone the way of Cain, go right ahead and try to save yourself or, repent and believe.

John6:35-37

35) Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.
36) But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37) All those the Father gives me will come to me, and "whoever comes to me I will never drive away."​