What must I do to be saved

Ralph- · Jul 14, 2018

If only fake, 'not really' believers ever leave the truth why is John warning anointing believers who know the truth to not also leave?

19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.e 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

24As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

28And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.

A simple honest read shows us John is not at all suggesting only fake believers who never believed to begin with leave. He's plainly warning those who have an anointing and who know the truth to not leave like these others, who didn't know the truth, did.

reneweddaybyday · Jul 14, 2018

justpassinthrough said:

The difference between what you believe and what I believe concerning receiving of faith is you believe a person receives faith when he/she hears the word of God and that faith is activated when he/she obeys what he/she hears.

And I believe that every person has faith and when he/she hears the word of God and does not suppress or restrain the truth, faith is increased (not that more is received, but faith already inherent within is strengthened).

reneweddaybyday · Jul 14, 2018

justpassinthrough said:

Again, the word "confess" in Rom 10:9 and the word "confession" in Rom 10:10 is the Greek word homologeō which means to say the same thing as another, agree.

When we hear the gospel, we agree with the truth of the gospel. We agree with God that Jesus Christ is Lord and we believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead.

justpassinthrough · Jul 14, 2018

reneweddaybyday said:

Yes, that is correct, because that is what the scripture teaches us.

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 of whom it was said, “In Isaac your seed shall be called,” 19 concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense. Hebrews 11:17-19

Can you see that God spoke to Abraham, to offer up his son?

reneweddaybyday said:

Ok, please show us a scripture that teaches us every person has faith apart from God speaking or moving upon their heart, which is another way of saying "inspiring them" in which they hear God, even if it is a still small voice.

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

JPT

justpassinthrough · Jul 14, 2018

reneweddaybyday said:

Confess with the mouth simple means to speak openly, to declare as well as to concede, so as not to deny.

Confessing with our mouth the Lord Jesus is the action of obedience to the Gospel: Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.

Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand, means turn to God.

If a person is called to turn to God, then by default, they are called to turn away from Satan as their lord, king, ruler, or master.

The way we obey the Gospel call to repent, is to confess Jesus as Lord.

Not repent of your sins, but repent as in turning away from Satan as lord, and turning to Jesus as our Lord.

[Repentance of sins comes after we are empowered to live in dominion over sin, by His Spirit.]

This is what grants us the forgiveness of sins, by which we are transferred out of the domain of darkness into the kingdom of God; The kingdom of His dear Son.

Here it is from the Lord's perspective.

Words of Christ in red -

to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins

14 And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ 15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:14-20

that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.

JPT

reneweddaybyday · Jul 14, 2018

justpassinthrough said:

Yes, I see.

However, where did God speak to Abraham about raising Isaac from the dead?

Hebrews 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

We read in Genesis that Isaac asked his father "where is the lamb for a burnt offering?"

Abraham answered "God will provide Himself a lamb for a burnt offering."

Abraham didn’t tell Isaac that he (Isaac) was the offering.

And in Genesis 22:5 Abraham told his servants to remain behind and that he and Isaac will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.

Notice Abraham didn't tell his servants that he and Isaac will go worship and I will return. Abraham fully believed that he and Isaac would both return.

So where did the faith come from wherein Abraham logically concluded that God was able to raise up Isaac from the dead?

justpassinthrough said:

I showed you and you do not agree.

justpassinthrough said:

So does a person receive faith every time he or she hears the Word of God?

And those who do not "obey" in order that God may "activate" and thereby "produce the divine result of salvation" ... what happens to the faith God gives to them if they don’t believe? Does God take it away? Does it remain within but is dormant? is it dead?

justpassinthrough · Jul 14, 2018

reneweddaybyday said:

Yes, because Abraham believed that God would raise his Issac from the dead.

Abraham fully intended to sacrifice his son, show forth the type and shadow of our heavenly Father who sacrificed His only begotten Son, for our sins.

Abraham was justified by his obedience, the obedience of faith, when he offered Issac his son on the altar.

Nothing you can say will change the truth of God's word.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

The faith we receive from God when He speaks to us, is dead, incomplete, dormant until activated by obedience to the word of God, by which we received faith.

JPT

reneweddaybyday · Jul 15, 2018

justpassinthrough said:

Genesis 22 mentions nothing concerning resurrection.

But Hebrews 11:19 makes clear that Abraham concluded God was able to raise Isaac from the dead.

My take on Abraham’s faith in this regard is that Abraham concluded Isaac could not remain dead because God had promised that Abraham would be the father of many nations. Isaac had to return with Abraham in order for God to fulfill His promise. I believe this is why Gen 22:5 states that Abraham told the men who travelled with them that both he and Isaac would return.

justpassinthrough said:

And, again, I believe faith is an inherent attribute given to everyone. So when we hear the Word, read the Word, listen to the Word, discuss the Word with each other, hear the Word in our church, God strengthens our faith when we do not restrain or suppress the truth.

I know you don’t agree with that. So be it.

justpassinthrough said:

Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Abraham was justified by faith (Rom 4:3). The good works done in faith do not justify us.

Romans 4:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

justpassinthrough said:

Do we receive a bit of faith each time we hear the Word of God? Does God give faith every time we read Scripture, listen to Scripture, discuss Scripture with each other, hear Scripture when we go to church service?

mailmandan · Jul 15, 2018

justpassinthrough said:

In James 2:21, *notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save him, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was "shown to be righteous."

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, (in a legal sense) he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.”

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came through faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

So man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

justpassinthrough · Jul 15, 2018

reneweddaybyday said:

Yes exactly.

The reason Abraham believed this is because God had spoken this promise to Him, and because God had spoken this to him, it produced faith within Abraham.

Abraham believed this, therefore he demonstrated he believed by obeying the command to offer His son Isaac on the altar, which fulfilled, made complete, his believing from previously which said - "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
James 2:22-23

Abraham first believed, by obeying when God said -

Now the Lord had said to Abram:

“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
4 So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him...
Genesis 12:1-4

Again, we see the obedience of faith, demonstrated through Abraham, as a pattern of justification by faith, leaving for us an example of those who are made righteous through the obedience of faith; obeying the Gospel.

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:8

JPT

justpassinthrough · Jul 15, 2018

reneweddaybyday said:

No. Not every time.

Faith comes hearing the rhema, which is primarily God speaking to us, but also is us hearing the Gospel preached by those sent from God.

Otherwise, Saul of Tarsus would have been a great man of faith, and would have never persecuted the Church, being very learned in the scriptures.

JPT

mailmandan · Jul 15, 2018

Ralph- said:

So where did John say that believers who knew the truth "left and did not remain in Him?" Why did John say in 1 John 2:19 that those who went out from us because they were not of us WOULD HAVE CONTINUED WITH US IF THEY HAD BEEN OF US? John did not say might have, could have should have, but WOULD HAVE CONTINUED. Abiding signifies a permanent remaining. The command to continue in Him signals that abiding is not completely passive on our part and is pursued by believers, yet it is God who preserves His saints (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1). Of all who are justified, how many of them will be glorified?

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty.

Ralph- · Jul 15, 2018

mailmandan said:

John told the remaining believers that them continuing in Christ is conditioned on them continuing in what they heard in the beginning (vs.24-note the 'if'). Not a very fitting 'if' for believers who will supposedly always and without exception fulfill that condition.

So we know John is not suggesting that any and all people who go out were never saved to begin with and every true believer never leaves. He knows something about this particular group of people who went out that he can make the judgement that they, in particular, were never saved to begin with. He's not writing a blanket statement that all people who go out were never saved, and all people who are really saved will never leave.

mailmandan said:

There's no such thing as a Prodigal Son, a lost sheep, or a lost coin in this doctrine. You are aware of that, right? In this doctrine you were never a son or a sheep to begin with if you 'go out'. Obviously, he knows something about this particular group of people who went out that is not categorically true of all people who go out.

mailmandan said:

Obviously, in light of the whole counsel of scripture we know that John does not mean that them remaining if they had truly been of us means that they would always remain and it not be possible to ever leave. John telling the remaining believers all these things so they won't be deceived (vs.26) shows us this.

mailmandan said:

The ones who remain in him.
John plainly says this. Even Paul (whom you are quoting) says that to continue in the tree you have to remain in God's kindness or else be cut out because of unbelief:

22 "Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off."-Romans 11:22

mailmandan said:

It's a certainty for those who remain in him, in other words, continue to believe in him, not for the one's who stop believing and do not continue in the kindness of God, like the Galatians.

mailmandan · Jul 15, 2018

Ralph- said:

Does the Bible say that the Galatians stopped believing and "lost their salvation?" Was it a done deal? Is that why Paul was confident in the Lord they would take no other view in verse 10?

Ralph- · Jul 15, 2018

mailmandan said:

Why can having confidence in someone only mean they will never let you down? Why can't it also mean you expect them to not let you down? Paul's lengthy and passionate warnings to the Galatians shows us he is not saying he knows for a fact that they will not adopt another gospel. His expectations are that they will stick with what he taught them.

Do you have kids? When you tell your son in Little League that you know they can hit it out of the park that doesn't mean you know for a fact that they will. It means you know that they can.

Ralph- · Jul 15, 2018

mailmandan said:

If God had turned them over to their decision to no longer trust in Christ for justification Paul would not be trying to get them to come back to faith in Christ. (Once God turns you over to your unbelief it's over).

The Galatians show us that God does not give up on the departing believer easily. But you should know this from the Parables of the sheep and the son........oh, wait........never mind..........you believe that their leaving showed they were never a sheep or a son to begin with.

Ralph- · Jul 15, 2018

Don't get all twisted up with this, church. It's simple. It is the mature Christian in whom the word is deeply rooted and producing fruit in perseverance for whom the word can not be uprooted from them in unbelief. It is the immature Christian in whom the word is not deeply rooted that the word can be uprooted from them and they return to the world in unbelief.

Don't try to draw hard and fast lines--fake believers always leave, true believers always stay--where there are none. It's not like that. Weak believers can fall away, strong believers can not. That is the only way to reconcile the seemingly contradictory teachings in the Bible about if a person can lose their salvation or not that the church has been fighting about for centuries. It's the only reasonable answer that reconciles both arguments and it comes from scripture itself.

GodisONE · Jul 15, 2018

to be saved by God?

one simply must believe!!

reneweddaybyday · Jul 15, 2018

justpassinthrough said:

I believe faith was already inherent in Abraham when God spoke to him. Not that God gave Abraham faith (or more faith) when He spoke to him.

And when Abraham did not suppress the truth in unrighteousness, and was obedient to the Word of God, God then strengthened the faith Abraham already had within.

We have faith as an inherent attribute and when we do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness, that faith is increased (strengthened). It’s not that we get more and more every time we hear the Word. It’s that what faith we do have becomes strong (as opposed to weak) when we do not suppress the truth.

reneweddaybyday · Jul 15, 2018

justpassinthrough said:

Actually, if we go back and read the records in Genesis (all of them - from Gen 12 to Gen 22), we see the promise God made to Abraham.

In Gen 15, we see the covenant God made.

Abraham asked God what would He give him, seeing he had no children (vs 2-3).

God answered that a child born of Abraham would be his heir. God told Abraham to look at all the stars of heaven - so shall thy seed be (vs 4-5).

Abraham did not suppress the truth in unrighteousness. He believed the promise and God counted that for righteousness (vs 6).

God then told Abraham he would inherit the land and Abraham asked whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it (vs 7-8).

And in vss 9-21 we see God's covenant. Abraham was asleep (vs 12) when God made covenant. This was God confirming His promise and Abraham could fully rely on God's promise and covenant. God's promise/covenant was not dependent upon anything Abraham would do.

Then in Gen 22, we have the record of Abraham and Isaac. In vss 15-18 we read —

15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,

16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

See vs 16 where God said by Myself have I sworn?

That's relating back to Gen 15 where God covenanted with Himself. Abraham had no part in that covenant. Abraham was asleep.

In Hebrews 6, we read about this covenant:

13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.

17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast,

The two immutable things are God’s promise and God’s covenant.

That was what Abraham believed (God's promise and God's covenant) and it was reckoned to him for righteousness.

What must I do to be saved

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