OSAS= House Built on Sand

[Chester]

Do you really think someone who studies the word thinks and lives that way?

Can you clarify your question - Who are you talking about? What do you mean by "that way" in your question?

 

[PennEd]

For those of you who keep saying that no one on CC teaches that once you are saved (OSAS) and can thus live however you want, see the above that I highlighted.

Hey Chester. I also don't like the wording he used, but the concept is valid. Even those who don't believe they are eternally secure would say that Christ's Blood has paid for any future sins they commit. The only people who don't believe that are the sinless perfectionists that have deluded themselves into believing they no longer EVER sin.

So I think he is saying that his future sins are paid for, and since he believes in eternal security no amount of sin will change that.
That is different than PROMOTING going out and sinning all you want cause it doesn't matter anyway. That kind of doctrine would prove that he was never saved to begin with.

 

[Lillywolf]

Can you clarify your question - Who are you talking about? What do you mean by "that way" in your question?

I was responding to you, as you note in that I quoted your post, as you had posted to someone calling themselves slayer here; https://christianchat.com/threads/osas-house-built-on-sand.178412/post-3696682

 

[Chester]

I was responding to you, as you note in that I quoted your post, as you had posted to someone calling themselves slayer here; https://christianchat.com/threads/osas-house-built-on-sand.178412/post-3696682

Yeah, I know all that . . .

lol! OK - you are new here - Welcome! One thing I have found out is not to assume that someone means something by a question if it is not clear - things are easily misunderstood .

First of all: Your opening few words - "Do you really think" are a loaded gun! Or at least they could be? Those words put me on my toes immediately! But what is not clear is if you agree with me, or if you are trying to corner me with your question . . .?

The middle part of your question was "someone who studies the word" - Are you talking about Slayer, about me (Chester), or about yourself, or about any anonymous person out there?

Then you ask "thinks and lives that way" - ????
Is "that way" = believing in OSAS and then living wrecklessly in sin? (here you are saying I misunderstand Slayer)
Is "that way" = not believing in OSAS and fussing about people who do believe in OSAS (here you are fussing at Chester)
Is "that way" = believing in OSAS and condoning and supporting people who live wrecklessly in sin (here you are fussing at Slayer)

Now, maybe you are thoroughly confused by my ramblings . . . is so - I have make my point - and I ask again - please - clarify and state clearly your question or comment (post 2320). If you disagree with me, fine - that does not offend me - CC is a place where iron sharpens iron! If you agree with me - hop on board - and let's mow down the other dissenters . . . ! LOL!

 

[Chester]

Hey Chester. I also don't like the wording he used, but the concept is valid. Even those who don't believe they are eternally secure would say that Christ's Blood has paid for any future sins they commit. The only people who don't believe that are the sinless perfectionists that have deluded themselves into believing they no longer EVER sin.

So I think he is saying that his future sins are paid for, and since he believes in eternal security no amount of sin will change that.
That is different than PROMOTING going out and sinning all you want cause it doesn't matter anyway. That kind of doctrine would prove that he was never saved to begin with.

Penned,

I am glad you do not like the wording he used. It is that kind of wording that makes some of us here blanch!

"I am a Saint of God, my salvation was guaranteed before I was created. I am saved no matter how much I sin or what I do, I already have eternal life and I am saved . . ."
- Slayer - Post 2304

I think you might say that a Christian is forgiven of all their future sins, but that they will not go out and just sin wrecklessly because they have God's Spirit in them (I John 3). And if someone would go out and sin wrecklessly, you might wonder if they were ever saved to begin with.

You say you do not like the wording, but the concept is valid. Okay - hmmmmm - Slayer is saying (I think) that he knows that he is one of the elect of God whom God loved from the foundation of the world. As being a part of the elect, he cannot be lost under any condition. Thus he has complete assurance of salvation. He could be a Hitler ten times over and still be saved - works are not in consideration nor do they matter at all. Of course, he should do good works out of gratitude, but the good works are irrelevant to the salvation or eternal destiny.
I think that is the "concept" Slayer is talking about -- do you agree with it?

 

[Lillywolf]

Yeah, I know all that . . .

lol! OK - you are new here - Welcome! One thing I have found out is not to assume that someone means something by a question if it is not clear - things are easily misunderstood .

First of all: Your opening few words - "Do you really think" are a loaded gun! Or at least they could be? Those words put me on my toes immediately! But what is not clear is if you agree with me, or if you are trying to corner me with your question . . .?

The middle part of your question was "someone who studies the word" - Are you talking about Slayer, about me (Chester), or about yourself, or about any anonymous person out there?

Then you ask "thinks and lives that way" - ????
Is "that way" = believing in OSAS and then living wrecklessly in sin? (here you are saying I misunderstand Slayer)
Is "that way" = not believing in OSAS and fussing about people who do believe in OSAS (here you are fussing at Chester)
Is "that way" = believing in OSAS and condoning and supporting people who live wrecklessly in sin (here you are fussing at Slayer)

Now, maybe you are thoroughly confused by my ramblings . . . is so - I have make my point - and I ask again - please - clarify and state clearly your question or comment (post 2320). If you disagree with me, fine - that does not offend me - CC is a place where iron sharpens iron! If you agree with me - hop on board - and let's mow down the other dissenters . . . ! LOL!

I bet you're a real hoot at parties. Here I thought my observation was really clear.

I'll put it this way and see if that helps.
The slayer person said this;
I am a Saint of God, my salvation was guaranteed before I was created. I am saved no matter how much I sin or what I do, I already have eternal life and I am saved.
Their post #2304 https://christianchat.com/threads/osas-house-built-on-sand.178412/post-3696466

My posted opinion of that was intending to ask you, after you pointed out there are people here who think once you're saved you can do anything you want and still see Heaven, and used the slayer person's post above as proof, do you think anyone at all who reads scriptures can say they do actually believe and live the way slayer claimed they do?

Or are they bluffing to get a reaction?

There is no way the scriptures in the testament of Christ can be read and interpreted as the slayer person claims they do.

That's why I asked you basically what was, do you really take this slayer person seriously when they claim that? Because it can't be gleaned from the teachings of Christ to be true.

 

[dcontroversal]

A saved person is a Saint of God, nobody needs to tell him to give cheerfully or generously. Every Saint of God will give sacrificially, without anyone provoking him, we are so glad to have been saved from an eternity of torment in hell that we are more than glad to give sacrificially.

A Saint of God is only concerned with glorifying God in everything he does, whether it be giving of money or of giving time to visit the sick or the poor and any other good thing. Nobody needs to tell us we should give at all, we just do it out of our gratitude for receiving eternal life in paradise.

yeah....this view of your denies the fact that GOD SENDS MEN INTO HIS CHURCHES TO TEACH the SAVED how to act, live etc....Man...you have a lot of studying to do and I suggest you find a teacher that actually teaches the truth!!

 

[dcontroversal]

The parable of the talents tells us that the servant who didn't use the money wisely and make more money was cast into the outer darkness where there was WAILING AND GNASHING OF TEETH!!! SOUNDS LIKE HELL TO ME

So what.....it was not a saved man that lost his salvation and or a saved man that got cast into hell because he did not give or not give enough.....the more you speak the ore obvious it becomes that you have gone to seed on this issue and or been taught by someone that does not know what they are talking about....

 

[know1]

Well I guess I can give you an "A" for originality, unfortunately though, an "F" for discernment. You seem to be throwing all sorts of Scripture on the wall in hopes that some will stick to this idea that Saved, sealed, believers lose their Salvation. None of which explain how Jesus said He NEVER knew them. And you are also evading the point that they cast out demons in His Name EVEN though they were NEVER saved, just as Jesus himself said.

So God can't remember that at one time His Holy Spirit was sealed in a person? Cause remember, He said HE NEVER KNEW THEM.


Where did you get this idea that a virgin equates to a Child of God? Oil is representative of the Holy Spirit all through Scripture. You can be a a clean vessel, but no matter how clean a vessel is, it is WORTHLESS without being filled with something. It is just an EMPTY, clean vessel.

5 of the virgins had no oil. They did NOT have the Holy Spirit. Their wicks quickly burned out, just like the plants that sprouted but burnt up and withered BECAUSE they had NO ROOT!

NEITHER had Jesus.

Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

The parable has to do with the church making themselves ready for the groom, which is the marriage supper of the lamb written in Revelation.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they [as in people] which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Also notice the delay in His coming back. Sounds like the interim period before the rapture of the church.
The word church, refers to the believers in the church, not including the agnostics and atheist.
Note the foolish candle light was lit before going out, due to running out of oil.

Ten virgins - These virgins, doubtless, represent the church - a name given to it because it is pure, undefiled, and holy.
2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Barnes says, the church represents the body of Christ. I am inclined to believe the same. The church is the only one getting married to Christ.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

And we the people in the church of Christ represents the individual parts of the body of Christ.
Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

And the oil represents either The Spirit of God or one of the Spirits of God.

Barnes, Trimmed their lamps - Burning until midnight, the oil was exhausted: they gave a dim and obscure light. They trimmed them by removing the burnt parts of the linen or the torch, so that they would burn clear. It was needful, also, to dip them again in oil, or to pour oil upon them.

Clarke, Our lamps are gone out - Σβεννυνται, are going out. So then it is evident that they were once lighted. They had once hearts illuminated and warmed by faith and love; but they had backslidden from the salvation of God, and now they are excluded from heaven, because, through their carelessness, they have let the light that was in them become darkness, and have not applied in time for a fresh supply of the salvation of God.

Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Jesus said He, the truth of the gospel, is the light whereby we are able to see/perceive.
Where light or truth has been corrupted within a child of God, such as acquiring a lust for money or other worldly thing, or backsliding through some form of sin, like the prodigal son did the father. It is possible for a "true believer" to be deceived and fall into sin or away from God.

If a person never spends time in prayer with God, it could be said that He never knew them, like one man who died temporarily and went to heaven. Jesus told the guy that he never spent time with Him and therefore He didn't know the guy.

As for the scripture in question, I think I proved in part that God can forget the good things one does, even not know them, when they continue walking in sin without repenting, or because they either failed to remain in Christ or because they simply got cut off from the body of Christ due to their ongoing sins.

What I was attempting to show in my last post to you sir, is that God can and does forget the good one does when they get off into sin, and if He can forget the sin, He can to the same with those who refuse to repent and come back to God.

 

[Chester]

I bet you're a real hoot at parties. Here I thought my observation was really clear.

I'll put it this way and see if that helps.
The slayer person said this;
I am a Saint of God, my salvation was guaranteed before I was created. I am saved no matter how much I sin or what I do, I already have eternal life and I am saved.
Their post #2304 https://christianchat.com/threads/osas-house-built-on-sand.178412/post-3696466

My posted opinion of that was intending to ask you, after you pointed out there are people here who think once you're saved you can do anything you want and still see Heaven, and used the slayer person's post above as proof, do you think anyone at all who reads scriptures can say they do actually believe and live the way slayer claimed they do?

Or are they bluffing to get a reaction?

There is no way the scriptures in the testament of Christ can be read and interpreted as the slayer person claims they do.

That's why I asked you basically what was, do you really take this slayer person seriously when they claim that? Because it can't be gleaned from the teachings of Christ to be true.

Now I get it . . . and if I hadn't asked I would have taken you in a very different way . . .

Is Slayer bluffing to get a reaction? I think not: I think he really believes the Bible teaches that . . . (On the other hand, he could be someone just purposefully playing around for fun! - we have no way of really knowing . . .)

I agree with you that what Slayer is promoting cannot be "gleaned from the teachings of Christ"!

And are there people who believe and live this way - that is - say they are saved and part of the elect - but live purposefully and openly in sin (but say they are going to heaven)? There are lots of them in this country! After they live this way they change their theology to support their sin!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

This convo reminds me of a guy I knew from FL who attended a seminary which correctly taught that the Olivet Discourse is not covering "the Church which is His body" (nor its [our] "Rapture"), but that the "beginning of birth pangs" [Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11] equals the SEALS of Revelation 6, which START in the [7-yr, future] trib (and everything follows from there--but the Church which is His body has already been raptured by this point). That was basically the gist of it (the eschatology prof may have been Dr Stanley Toussaint, DTS, not sure).

Then this guy attended a church which taught otherwise. So once he got his own pastorate, he didn't know which was the correct teaching, so (instead of studying it out to find out for himself) he decided to teach it in the way that would be most advantageous to himself and the church he now pastored, *his* church : tell everyone they'll be cast into hell if they don't give generously (basically), because "true Christians" DO. His proof was this passage... in the Olivet Discourse. No need to study.


--"Stanley D. Toussaint, ―Are the Church and the Rapture in Matthew 24? in When the Trumpet Sounds, ed. Thomas Ice and Timothy Demy (Eugene, OR: Harvest House, 1995), 235-50"

--Another author [not a pre-tribber?? who knows, not quoting him coz I agree with this person's other teachings, just for the following quote which i could find in succinct form anywhere else] has said, "According to Stanley D. Toussaint, because of the passage's strict Jewishness, neither the Church nor the Rapture of the Church is in view at all in Matthew 24."

--Quote by another: "The issue here is the immediate context [Olivet Discourse]. What did the disciples ask about? And the answer is, they asked about the main events prophesied in the OT for the future of Israel. And Christ answered those questions in His Discourse. Consistent pretribulationists are correct in teaching that the rapture is not found in Matthew 24–25." -- Larry D Pettegrew.

Etc...


Jesus is not "returning" (at that point) to MARRY the ten virgins [plural], nor even five!

He will be "returning" to the earth at that point as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom, FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER," aka "the kingdom of the heavens [on the earth, upon His "return" there]"), to which "guests [plural]" will have been "INVITED" (DURING the trib, AFTER the Church has been raptured). This is the distinction between "the Marriage" itself [Rev19:7 aorist] (involving "the Bride/Wife [singular]"), and "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [MK]" [Rev19:9 NOT aorist] (involving "the guests [plural]," "the 10 [or 5] bridesmaids/virgins [plural]," "servants [plural]" of that specific time period).


[2Cor9:7]

 

[know1]

Hey Chester. I also don't like the wording he used, but the concept is valid. Even those who don't believe they are eternally secure would say that Christ's Blood has paid for any future sins they commit. The only people who don't believe that are the sinless perfectionists that have deluded themselves into believing they no longer EVER sin.

So I think he is saying that his future sins are paid for, and since he believes in eternal security no amount of sin will change that.
That is different than PROMOTING going out and sinning all you want cause it doesn't matter anyway. That kind of doctrine would prove that he was never saved to begin with.

No sin has been paid for by Christ's blood UNTIL the person repents, confesses their sin, and asks God for forgiveness and receive it by faith.

We are not automatically forgiven of our sins, or washed in the blood of Christ, until one repents, the sin remains.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

 

[Limey410v2]

No sin has been paid for by Christ's blood UNTIL the person repents, confesses their sin, and asks God for forgiveness and receive it by faith.

We are not automatically forgiven of our sins, or washed in the blood of Christ, until one repents, the sin remains.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

All sin was forgiven by Christ on the day of His death on the cross. 1 John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

The sins of the saved and unsaved have been forgiven.

What does that mean? Well until we receive the Spirit of God we are all just a bunch of forgiven dead people.

It is not the forgiveness of sins that makes us alive in Christ, it is our resurrection by the Holy Spirit of God that can now live in us because there is now no sin that will cause the Holy Spirit to leave.

Sin is no longer the issue between man and God. The issue is whether you accept Him or reject Him as the Messiah.
John 10:27-28
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

So we know that we commit many sins daily, we are not even aware of all the sins we commit but we have full control of things like giving. It's not like we aren't aware that we are sinning when we don't give enough, our conscience will immediately testify against us.

So now you agree that the believer may sin in the area of giving and that he/she will not be cast into the lake of fire?

Or is your point that we sin and the only sin "our conscience will immediately testify against us" is "when we don't give enough"?

Please clarify your point. Thank you.

 

[Limey410v2]

The reason most people don't fully accept the complete and total forgiveness of sin, is because they don't want someone else to have it.

 

[Slayer]

For those of you who keep saying that no one on CC teaches that once you are saved (OSAS) and can thus live however you want, see the above that I highlighted.

What you highlighted is Biblical doctrine, do you have a problem with Gods Word?. OSAS is Biblical, those who don't believe Gods Word will disagree. You need to provide scripture to show that OSAS is not Biblical or stop making this outrageous unbiblical claim that a saved person can lose his salvation.

The Bible is crystal clear, those who "lose their salvation" were never true believers. They were never saved in the first place, they are hypocrites and not Christians.

 

[Slayer]

yeah....this view of your denies the fact that GOD SENDS MEN INTO HIS CHURCHES TO TEACH the SAVED how to act, live etc....Man...you have a lot of studying to do and I suggest you find a teacher that actually teaches the truth!!

Of' course the saved people need a teacher to teach them how to serve God in the most effective way. That's why God appoints shepherds to lead us sheep, we don't suddenly become all wise at the point of our conversion. We only start learning about God when we are converted, we start top fear God and start becoming wise "the fear of God is the begging of wisdom".

I have grave fears for all of the rouge sheep who are roaming around professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. Sheep need a shepherd, or the hungry lion will devour the rouge sheep roaming around lost.

 

[Slayer]

So what.....it was not a saved man that lost his salvation and or a saved man that got cast into hell because he did not give or not give enough.....the more you speak the ore obvious it becomes that you have gone to seed on this issue and or been taught by someone that does not know what they are talking about....

The Bible is against you, it says that no saved person can possibly lose their salvation. Only those who never had it can lose it, the Bible calls them hypocrites. Judas presented as a true believer, but he was exposed in the end so will every false believer.

 

[UnderGrace]

The reason most people don't fully accept the complete and total forgiveness of sin, is because they don't want someone else to have it.

So true!!!

 

[Slayer]

So now you agree that the believer may sin in the area of giving and that he/she will not be cast into the lake of fire?

Or is your point that we sin and the only sin "our conscience will immediately testify against us" is "when we don't give enough"?

Please clarify your point. Thank you.

I was trying to point out the difference between those sins we commit by falling into sin in a moment of time and those sins we commit as a result of careful consideration and then committing them. I said, those sins we fall into were not planned and they were accidental, but sins like not giving enough are planned before they are committed.