Since it has been addressed, i thought I'd ask

[CharliRenee]

I too agree with the sometimes aggressive verbal banter. I see insults thrown around like a ball in a heated game of dodgeball. I often wonder why folks feel the need to try and bring another down.

Would you do me a favor, and humor a sister in Christ? Why do we, family in Christ, treat each other in a manner that lacks dignity?

I understand some of you are no nonsense, tell it like you see it, peeps. To be honest, I appreciate that kind of personality, despite my personality being irritatingly syrupy, lol. Don't get me wrong, I fall short too. I have bad days, less thoughtful and kind moments.

I think we should not have to censor every response. We want good debates and conversations that allow for a difference of opinion. We also enjoy looking at a matter, and then studying it together. Plus, I really enjoy humor, love it in fact. All of this is good stuff. But when we take what could be a nice thought provoking dialogue and turn it into a character assasination party, then not only is it not edifying, it is downright destructive and damaging to each other, our integrity, and to our faith.

So yeah. I am trying to understand and would welcome your feedback (please be nice'ish, though, lol). I admit, though, that I had another motive writing this. I wanted to vent a bit, expressing my response when I see it.

I pray we, myself included, all do better

 

[JaumeJ]

Manyt times it is simply a case of "tough love," but there are many who think asserting what they believe is more important than simply sharing understanding.

 

[Dino246]

I enjoy a healthy disagreement, but I don't see it here very often. Too many people are quick to denigrate another's person, relationship with God, or intelligence instead of focusing on the ideas under discussion.

This past week another contributor wrote that I have been "turned over to Satan" because I kept challenging some ideas in his posts. I take it whence it comes, but it's disappointing that some people are so lacking in basic respect.

I would offer this: ideas are fair game for criticism. If your ideas can't stand up to criticism, they aren't worth holding. However, if you feel a need to attack another person, it's time to take a break.

 

[JaumeJ]

I enjoy a healthy disagreement, but I don't see it here very often. Too many people are quick to denigrate another's person, relationship with God, or intelligence instead of focusing on the ideas under discussion.

This past week another contributor wrote that I have been "turned over to Satan" because I kept challenging some ideas in his posts. I take it whence it comes, but it's disappointing that some people are so lacking in basic respect.

I would offer this: ideas are fair game for criticism. If your ideas can't stand up to criticism, they aren't worth holding. However, if you feel a need to attack another person, it's time to take a break.

Understood…….. God bless you.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Sometimes it's easier to attack a person who holds an opposing view rather than address the issue raised ... especially in matters which are foundational to our beliefs.

In debate/discussion, when someone is unable to refute an opposing claim, it is easy to cast aspersions by personal attack. This is a common tactic in debate and when it occurs, the discussion generally takes a turn for the worse.

It's also somewhat difficult to get a point across in an online forum. When we discuss something with someone face to face, it's easier to handle some of the issues discussed because we can get out our bibles and research materials (lexicon, concordance, etc.) and actually show our line of reasoning.

In an online forum, we are reading from typed text and sometimes it might take time to get a point across and this might add frustration to someone who is trying to make a point (or understand a point).

I think generally it's best to have an attitude as shown in Phil 2:3 (Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.)

 

[CharliRenee]

Wow, I have enjoyed reading these responses, thank you.

 

[posthuman]

I would offer this: ideas are fair game for criticism. If your ideas can't stand up to criticism, they aren't worth holding. However, if you feel a need to attack another person, it's time to take a break.

amen

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, ​

against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. ​

(Ephesians 6:12)​

 

[posthuman]

amen

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, ​

against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. ​

(Ephesians 6:12)​

the word of God is our sword ((Ephesians 6:17)), sharp and two-edged, able to divide soul from spirit.
many of you know that post studies swordfighting. in part i do this because it's flippin cool, but also in part because i believe the lessons one learns in skillfully wielding a weapon of steel transfer by metaphor to skillful use of the spiritual sword that the Lord arms the believer with.

one of the first lessons a swordsman must learn and fully grasp in order to have joy in the art is that you do not fight against your opponents sword; you fight against your opponent. most movie choreography gets this absolutely wrong ((partly in ignorance and partly for safety)), and most people when they pick up a stick to play at sparring get it completely wrong in the same way. two idiots or children fencing will slap at each others weapons, in such a way that if the opponent doesn't parry they aren't going to get hit anyway. people without training and without skill swing at the other sword, not at the opponent's body. this is dangerous nonsense and the way to nothing but defeat.

you must strike at the opponent, with intent. so that if your swing isn't blocked, it will hit: your target is not the weapon of the one standing against you: it's the one you fight against.

and we, if we walk - and fence - in the spirit, do not fight each other. the other man or woman is not your enemy and not your opponent: the principalities, the powers, the rulers of darkness in this world and in high places are the opponent.
strike with the sword against the lie, against the evil thought, against the blasphemy. swing not against the person, and not against the 'sword' they hold, as it were, when someone replies with misused scripture. you are not trying to break scripture with scripture; you are trying to pierce and disarm the evil one. your spiritual sword is meant to wound and destroy lies and false ways, not people. not flesh and blood.


((if that makes sense))

 

[Jachob]

We all struggle with sin. If you notice, most of the Ten Commandments given to Moses relate to how we treat other people. It's a problem for all of us. We do not love as we should, and this is something that comes from the heart.

We don't automatically get rid of our sinful nature when we are saved. We still contend with that nature on a daily basis. Our minds are being renewed, and this is why Jesus compels us to forgive each other. If your brother comes to you asking you to forgive him, you forgive him. Why? Because the Lord knows we are works in progress.

As we read and meditate on the Word, as the Spirit of God works in us (Ephesians 2:10 - For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.) we become more like him (Ezekiel 36:27
And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.).

We also should consider that God never intended for us to be "converts" but "disciples". This word disciple does not simply mean one who identifies as a Christian but one who actually follows the teachings of Christ.

John 10:27-28 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Notice here that the sheep follow him because they are sheep. He is the Sheppard and they are the sheep. They are, in this context, predisposed to following him because they are sheep. They do not become sheep because they follow him, they follow him because they are sheep. So that, a sheep will behave as sheep do because it is who they are. A Christian will walk in the ways of God because it is who they are. (2 Corinthians 5:17 - Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.[a] The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.)

There are little sheep who need to grow. They may stray from time to time, but these little sheep are loved and cared for by God. If you are a mature sheep, have compassion on the little ones and love them. Because all of us were once babes needing instruction and guidance, and God is not partial in his treatment of his own children.

Love each other, do not compromise on the faith once handed to the Saints, and forgive everyone their trespasses as your Heavenly Father forgives you.

 

[posthuman]

the word of God is our sword ((Ephesians 6:17)), sharp and two-edged, able to divide soul from spirit.
many of you know that post studies swordfighting. in part i do this because it's flippin cool, but also in part because i believe the lessons one learns in skillfully wielding a weapon of steel transfer by metaphor to skillful use of the spiritual sword that the Lord arms the believer with.

one of the first lessons a swordsman must learn and fully grasp in order to have joy in the art is that you do not fight against your opponents sword; you fight against your opponent. most movie choreography gets this absolutely wrong ((partly in ignorance and partly for safety)), and most people when they pick up a stick to play at sparring get it completely wrong in the same way. two idiots or children fencing will slap at each others weapons, in such a way that if the opponent doesn't parry they aren't going to get hit anyway. people without training and without skill swing at the other sword, not at the opponent's body. this is dangerous nonsense and the way to nothing but defeat.

you must strike at the opponent, with intent. so that if your swing isn't blocked, it will hit: your target is not the weapon of the one standing against you: it's the one you fight against.

and we, if we walk - and fence - in the spirit, do not fight each other. the other man or woman is not your enemy and not your opponent: the principalities, the powers, the rulers of darkness in this world and in high places are the opponent.
strike with the sword against the lie, against the evil thought, against the blasphemy. swing not against the person, and not against the 'sword' they hold, as it were, when someone replies with misused scripture. you are not trying to break scripture with scripture; you are trying to pierce and disarm the evil one. your spiritual sword is meant to wound and destroy lies and false ways, not people. not flesh and blood.


((if that makes sense))

Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.​

(Romans 6:13) ​

the word 'instruments' here in English, in Greek is a word that is more accurately "armaments"
it is a military word that could refer to armor, shields or weapons -- the 'instruments' of a soldier.

what i'm saying, is that the deceiver turns the deceived into his weapon.
the skillful fencer, who has success, aims to strike the opponent: the deceiver. not the weapon: the deceived.

look at this play:



the man on the left, with his left hand has grabbed the hilt of the sword of the man on the right, binding him up so he is not in danger, and with his right hand cuts the head of the man in blue. moreover the sword of the man in red is between the opponents sword and his head, both blocking any cut he may attempt by wrenching and aimed true at the proper target.
this is how we would skillfully use the sword of the Lord: close off the threat of the opponents weapon, and strike the head of the deceiver, who having been bound, is unable to parry your blow.



((hoping this makes sense to someone other than me lol))

lies, false doctrine, wickedness, confusion -- these things are the enemy. Satan turns people into his weapons: prevent them, and stab true at the true enemy

 

[Deade]

I believe it is how we look at things. When we see an unbeliever, do we see sin or a sinner in need of rescue. If we just start beating them over the head with our beloved scriptures, they will turn away.

We must also ask ourselves, are we working for God being led by the spirit? Or are we just doing what seems right in our head. Realize sometimes we will be doing something quite different than what we think needs done.

Matt. 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

God is not calling everyone to repent and be baptized. Sometimes we are just witnesses. Sometimes one sows, another waters and another reaps. Think about it.

 

[Solemateleft]

CharliRenee, thank you for asking this question to the cc forum... I too have observed the 'attack-style' engagements, and I too have been intrigued if not mystified by these types of interactions amongst christians...

It is interesting to see how many folks are in agreement with the sentiment of fairplay:
"ideas are fair game for criticism. If your ideas can't stand up to criticism, they aren't worth holding."

Here is a sports culture analogy that it reminds me of: Having been exposed to the USA Wrestling and the International/USA Judo cultures - it would seem that within the American Wrestling community it is completely acceptable for fans to yell and scream and argue with the referees decision. Similar to American Baseball - it is practically lauded for fans to yell at, argue with, and criticize the Umpire... Whereas, within the International and USA Judo community, where judo has Japanese origins - it is completely forbidden.

But as Christians do we not share a common culture of kindness, consideration, and respect amongst our brothers and sisters in christ... Do we not teach our kids that everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and while we do not have to agree with them, should we not strive to respectfully disagree with them. Especially, if we are adamantly assured that our opinion are based upon facts and evidence - do we not then have the intellectual advantage to maintain the moral high road. Are not our arguments more convincing without the personal attacks.

I loved John McCain's funeral, we learned a lot about a passionate man, that was very argumentative about the things that he believed in, and yet he was able to maintain a jovial and respectful relationship even amongst his rivals...

Of course we can not all hope to be as clever and witty as John McCain, and while it was well known that he was no saint - all who knew him agreed that he was a man of character and respect - to include those who did not agree with his beliefs...

Matthew 7:1-5
Chapter Parallel Compare
1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

 

[CharliRenee]

Manyt times it is simply a case of "tough love," but there are many who think asserting what they believe is more important than simply sharing understanding.

Not sure if love is a component once we insult another. I do get what u r saying, though.

 

[CharliRenee]

CharliRenee, thank you for asking this question to the cc forum... I too have observed the 'attack-style' engagements, and I too have been intrigued if not mystified by these types of interactions amongst christians...

It is interesting to see how many folks are in agreement with the sentiment of fairplay:
"ideas are fair game for criticism. If your ideas can't stand up to criticism, they aren't worth holding."

Here is a sports culture analogy that it reminds me of: Having been exposed to the USA Wrestling and the International/USA Judo cultures - it would seem that within the American Wrestling community it is completely acceptable for fans to yell and scream and argue with the referees decision. Similar to American Baseball - it is practically lauded for fans to yell at, argue with, and criticize the Umpire... Whereas, within the International and USA Judo community, where judo has Japanese origins - it is completely forbidden.

But as Christians do we not share a common culture of kindness, consideration, and respect amongst our brothers and sisters in christ... Do we not teach our kids that everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and while we do not have to agree with them, should we not strive to respectfully disagree with them. Especially, if we are adamantly assured that our opinion are based upon facts and evidence - do we not then have the intellectual advantage to maintain the moral high road. Are not our arguments more convincing without the personal attacks.

I loved John McCain's funeral, we learned a lot about a passionate man, that was very argumentative about the things that he believed in, and yet he was able to maintain a jovial and respectful relationship even amongst his rivals...

Of course we can not all hope to be as clever and witty as John McCain, and while it was well known that he was no saint - all who knew him agreed that he was a man of character and respect - to include those who did not agree with his beliefs...

Matthew 7:1-5
Chapter Parallel Compare
1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

That was so well presented dialogue, both thought provoking and informative. I couldn't agree more. Big hugs.

 

[CharliRenee]

I believe it is how we look at things. When we see an unbeliever, do we see sin or a sinner in need of rescue. If we just start beating them over the head with our beloved scriptures, they will turn away.

We must also ask ourselves, are we working for God being led by the spirit? Or are we just doing what seems right in our head. Realize sometimes we will be doing something quite different than what we think needs done.

Matt. 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

God is not calling everyone to repent and be baptized. Sometimes we are just witnesses. Sometimes one sows, another waters and another reaps. Think about it.

Well thought out my friend.

 

[CharliRenee]

Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.​

(Romans 6:13) ​

the word 'instruments' here in English, in Greek is a word that is more accurately "armaments"
it is a military word that could refer to armor, shields or weapons -- the 'instruments' of a soldier.

what i'm saying, is that the deceiver turns the deceived into his weapon.
the skillful fencer, who has success, aims to strike the opponent: the deceiver. not the weapon: the deceived.

look at this play:

View attachment 188442

the man on the left, with his left hand has grabbed the hilt of the sword of the man on the right, binding him up so he is not in danger, and with his right hand cuts the head of the man in blue. moreover the sword of the man in red is between the opponents sword and his head, both blocking any cut he may attempt by wrenching and aimed true at the proper target.
this is how we would skillfully use the sword of the Lord: close off the threat of the opponents weapon, and strike the head of the deceiver, who having been bound, is unable to parry your blow.



((hoping this makes sense to someone other than me lol))

lies, false doctrine, wickedness, confusion -- these things are the enemy. Satan turns people into his weapons: prevent them, and stab true at the true enemy

Well done, never thought about it this way. So succinctly you are saying that when engaging in a verbal spar, so to speak, we must do what is necessary, but be wise in the way we both pursue the opponent while at the same time protect ourselves. Am I understanding?

 

[tourist]

You certainly create thought provoking threads. I actually enjoy a good heated debate but don't like it when things break down and the name calling starts. I guess it just goes with the territory. I have been ripped apart a few times in the BDF but actually found it amusing. Generally, I really don't add anything useful to most debates but like to insert an amusing post occasionally to ease the tension. To me, the Bible Discussion Forum is a high entertainment venue.

 

[CharliRenee]

We all struggle with sin. If you notice, most of the Ten Commandments given to Moses relate to how we treat other people. It's a problem for all of us. We do not love as we should, and this is something that comes from the heart.

We don't automatically get rid of our sinful nature when we are saved. We still contend with that nature on a daily basis. Our minds are being renewed, and this is why Jesus compels us to forgive each other. If your brother comes to you asking you to forgive him, you forgive him. Why? Because the Lord knows we are works in progress.

As we read and meditate on the Word, as the Spirit of God works in us (Ephesians 2:10 - For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.) we become more like him (Ezekiel 36:27
And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.).

We also should consider that God never intended for us to be "converts" but "disciples". This word disciple does not simply mean one who identifies as a Christian but one who actually follows the teachings of Christ.

John 10:27-28 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Notice here that the sheep follow him because they are sheep. He is the Sheppard and they are the sheep. They are, in this context, predisposed to following him because they are sheep. They do not become sheep because they follow him, they follow him because they are sheep. So that, a sheep will behave as sheep do because it is who they are. A Christian will walk in the ways of God because it is who they are. (2 Corinthians 5:17 - Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.[a] The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.)

There are little sheep who need to grow. They may stray from time to time, but these little sheep are loved and cared for by God. If you are a mature sheep, have compassion on the little ones and love them. Because all of us were once babes needing instruction and guidance, and God is not partial in his treatment of his own children.

Love each other, do not compromise on the faith once handed to the Saints, and forgive everyone their trespasses as your Heavenly Father forgives you.

Do u know how good it is to see and read you bro? Hope u r well. We miss u Very well said, especially the part on remembering we are to be disciples not converts. BAM!!! Thank u!!!

 

[CharliRenee]

the word of God is our sword ((Ephesians 6:17)), sharp and two-edged, able to divide soul from spirit.
many of you know that post studies swordfighting. in part i do this because it's flippin cool, but also in part because i believe the lessons one learns in skillfully wielding a weapon of steel transfer by metaphor to skillful use of the spiritual sword that the Lord arms the believer with.

one of the first lessons a swordsman must learn and fully grasp in order to have joy in the art is that you do not fight against your opponents sword; you fight against your opponent. most movie choreography gets this absolutely wrong ((partly in ignorance and partly for safety)), and most people when they pick up a stick to play at sparring get it completely wrong in the same way. two idiots or children fencing will slap at each others weapons, in such a way that if the opponent doesn't parry they aren't going to get hit anyway. people without training and without skill swing at the other sword, not at the opponent's body. this is dangerous nonsense and the way to nothing but defeat.

you must strike at the opponent, with intent. so that if your swing isn't blocked, it will hit: your target is not the weapon of the one standing against you: it's the one you fight against.

and we, if we walk - and fence - in the spirit, do not fight each other. the other man or woman is not your enemy and not your opponent: the principalities, the powers, the rulers of darkness in this world and in high places are the opponent.
strike with the sword against the lie, against the evil thought, against the blasphemy. swing not against the person, and not against the 'sword' they hold, as it were, when someone replies with misused scripture. you are not trying to break scripture with scripture; you are trying to pierce and disarm the evil one. your spiritual sword is meant to wound and destroy lies and false ways, not people. not flesh and blood.


((if that makes sense))

BAM!! Fantastic sense!!!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

the word of God is our sword ((Ephesians 6:17)), sharp and two-edged, able to divide soul from spirit.
many of you know that post studies swordfighting.

The section in Ephesians 6 relating to the armour of God is very interesting:

Ephesians 6:

10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:


Vs 11 - Here we see that we are to put on the whole armour of God so that we may stand against the wiles of the devil.

Vs 12 mentions wrestling, in which we struggle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, powers, ruler of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Vs 13 again mentions the whole armour of God that we are to take to ourselves in order that we may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Vs 14 again tells us to stand and then we read about the various implements of the armour of God we are to put on. The armour of God listed consists for the most part of protective gear which enables us to stand and withstand as we preach the gospel.

So, we get through to vs 17 and now we're armed with the whole armour of God that we may stand and withstand. And what are the next instructions given to us ...

Ephesians 6:

18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.


Pray and make known the Gospel (boldly as we ought to speak).


I just love this section of Scripture. Arm yourself with the whole armour of God ... now stand, withstand, pray, and boldly speak the Gospel.

And when we boldly speak the Gospel and pray, we will definitely find we need the whole armour of God. The spiritual wickedness in high places cannot stand against the power of the Word of God. And we also know that God does not leave us alone to face His adversary. He goes before us. He goes behind us. He goes beside us. Just as He led the children of Israel as they wandered in the wilderness, He leads us in this present evil day.