A place for rapture questions

[Hevosmies]

Ahwatukee what about Acts 3:21 that says Jesus must remain in heaven until restitution of all things?

How does that work with the pre-trib model?

ALSO Post-tribbers where are you guys at? I havent had any of them respond? This forum is most likely majority pre-trib. Is that an american thing or is that the case world wide?
Anyhow: in the post-trib model WHO populates the millenium.

I was reading through the book of revelation today and even during the FIRST trumpet ALL green grass was burnt up. If the church is present, WHAT are they going to eat?
Furthermore: Paul tells us that we got to provide for our households and if we dont we are worse than an infidel and have denied the faith and Paul/Peter tells us to obey magistrates and governments. But if the church is in the tribulation how is this possible? You would have to take teh mark of the beast to provide for your family and to obey the governments of that time?

 

[garee]

I just noticed that the sheep and goats judgment in matthew 25 has THREE groups.

1. Sheep
2. Goats
3. BRETHREN. Those whom the sheep treated well, and goats poorly

Not sure where three comes from ? Sheep to represent the believers compared to goats to represent natural unconverted man . Same with the virgins. Those who had oil to represent the believers compared to those who had none to represent natural unconverted man.

The comparisons seems to be between two. I think two is always the comparison used in parables.

1)Walk by faith the unseen eternal as the things of God or 2)walk by sight the temporal as that seen as the things of men

Same with teaching authority as masters no man can serve two. The oral traditions of men or the written tradition of God

 

[Ahwatukee]

Ahwatukee what about Acts 3:21 that says Jesus must remain in heaven until restitution of all things?

How does that work with the pre-trib model?

Good day Hevosmies and all,

Below is the verse in question:

"Heaven must take Him in until the time comes for the restoration of all things, which God announced long ago through His holy prophets."

I think that you will agree, that we should not strain the scripture making Jesus restricted to the right hand of God and heaven, as though He was a prisoner. Is Jesus not God in the flesh? Is nothing in all creation hidden from him and everything laid bare and open before Him? Is He not the One who searches the hearts and the minds. Did He not say "I will be with you, even to the very end of the age"?

That said, does Jesus return to the air to gather the church and take us all back to the Father's house violate Acts 3:31?

I believe that the verse is saying that Jesus will not come back until the earth is restored for His millennial kingdom, which will be a time of unprecedented peace.

I was reading through the book of revelation today and even during the FIRST trumpet ALL green grass was burnt up. If the church is present, WHAT are they going to eat?

First, I believe that it is literal grass/flowers that are burned up, which I don't think people eat , but even worse is that a third of the earth is going to be burned up and a third of the trees.

In Revelation, there are only two of the plagues which mention the percentage of fatalities, that being the results of seals 1 thru 4 and the 6th trumpet, a fourth and a third, respectively, which would be over half the earths population in the first 3 1/2 years. What we don't know, are the percentages of trumpets 1, 2 and 3. That said, if a third of the earth and trees are being burned up, there is going to be an awful lot of fatalities, for you cannot burn up a third of the earth and trees with it affecting the inhabitants.

Then there is the second trumpet, when that object comes through earths atmosphere, described as "something like a huge mountain on fire or all ablaze," which I believe is an asteroid coming through the earths atmosphere which is why John sees it on fire. The results being all of the creatures in that body of water killed equaling a third over all the earth. And all of the ships in that body of water equaling a third over all the earth. That would be pleasure crafts, military ships, submarines and everything in between.

The reason for the creatures being killed and the ships being destroyed will be because of the giant Tsunami's that will be created as a result of that object hitting into one of the oceans. That said, how many people on those ships? In addition, those waves are not going to just destroy the ships out in deep water, the ones docked and everything in between, but are also going to destroy every city, village and town on every shore 360 degrees a hundred miles in land or more depending on the objects size and speed. How many people in those cities, villages and towns?

Regarding the third trumpet, a third of the rivers and fresh water are contaminated so that many people die from drinking the waters. How many people is "many?"

This is why I tell those who say that God is going to protect His church while all this is going on and gather us when He returns to the earth to end the age, that they need to do an in depth study of the severity of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment, because the Lord is going to keep His promise to remove us from the earth before all those plagues take place, opposed to protecting us in the midst of them.

 

[Hevosmies]

This is why I tell those who say that God is going to protect His church while all this is going on and gather us when He returns to the earth to end the age, that they need to do an in depth study of the severity of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment, because the Lord is going to keep His promise to remove us from the earth before all those plagues take place, opposed to protecting us in the midst of them.

I think the only people protected then are the 144 000 israelites. Other than that, its gonna get rough. I heard a post-trib preacher talk about going to a farm somewhere with people and living off the land and things...... Yeah thats not happening lol. People are under-estimating the devastation those seals/trumpets/vials will cause. Even now we got DEVASTATING hurricanes and earthquakes and tsunamis and this isnt even the tribulation yet!!

 

[Ahwatukee]

I think the only people protected then are the 144 000 israelites. Other than that, its gonna get rough. I heard a post-trib preacher talk about going to a farm somewhere with people and living off the land and things...... Yeah thats not happening lol. People are under-estimating the devastation those seals/trumpets/vials will cause. Even now we got DEVASTATING hurricanes and earthquakes and tsunamis and this isnt even the tribulation yet!!

The problem with that scenario is that, going to a farm and living off the land would not protect the church from being exposed to God's wrath and the beast making war against them, especially with satellite surveillance and all of the cameras that seem to be everywhere. In addition to that, how would the church escape from the over 1.7 billion people who will die as a result of seals 1thru 4, or from all of the fatalities of a third of the earth and trees being burned up? what about that third of the ships being destroyed and all of the people on them, or from being stung by the demonic beings who come up out of the Abyss, or the angels who kill a third of mankind? What about the fourth trumpet where the sun is given power to scorch the inhabitants of the earth, searing them with intense heat? The church would not be protected from those plagues, not to mention that the church is not even mentioned during the time of God's wrath.

Those who teach a post tribulation gathering do so because of not taking all of the related scriptures into consideration, i.e. incomplete exegesis, like the issues that I just mentioned above.

 

[Absolutely]

I think the only people protected then are the 144 000 israelites. Other than that, its gonna get rough. I heard a post-trib preacher talk about going to a farm somewhere with people and living off the land and things...... Yeah thats not happening lol. People are under-estimating the devastation those seals/trumpets/vials will cause. Even now we got DEVASTATING hurricanes and earthquakes and tsunamis and this isnt even the tribulation yet!!

Yes,and it speaks to the gentile bride being absent and in heaven,as only the Jew is protected. The 144k are firstfruit Jew and by being firstfruit Jews the gathering in rev 14 is probably Jews. Again,pointing to the parable of the wedding supper where all seats are filled

 

[Absolutely]

Ahwatukee what about Acts 3:21 that says Jesus must remain in heaven until restitution of all things?

How does that work with the pre-trib model?

ALSO Post-tribbers where are you guys at? I havent had any of them respond? This forum is most likely majority pre-trib. Is that an american thing or is that the case world wide?
Anyhow: in the post-trib model WHO populates the millenium.

I was reading through the book of revelation today and even during the FIRST trumpet ALL green grass was burnt up. If the church is present, WHAT are they going to eat?
Furthermore: Paul tells us that we got to provide for our households and if we dont we are worse than an infidel and have denied the faith and Paul/Peter tells us to obey magistrates and governments. But if the church is in the tribulation how is this possible? You would have to take teh mark of the beast to provide for your family and to obey the governments of that time?

The bible says all take the mark or die.
I seem to be the only one that believes that.
The BASIS for resisting that is some notion " who will populate the millineum"?
As if billions of saints in bodies from heaven,along with the heathen surviving the gt needs some added ingredients.

 

[Absolutely]

Same word is used of Jesus in Rev2:8... after He was dead. And in 20:4, it's after they were dead.

Not entirely sure the position you are defending,but your " point" speaks to MY position as correct.
Awatukee is implying,incorrectly, that they are ressurrected AT THAT POINT,directly AFTER the gt.
Not during the gt,but AFTER the gt.
So you are ,i think, saying that ,in defense of awatukee, that Jesus also resurrected in rev 2?
See the point? The appearance of a verse does not by " position" dictate timing/chronology. Rev 2 is NOT saying Jesus resurrected in rev 2.
The maryrs are mentioned in rev 20 as having been resurrected (" lived" to be exact).
Not as resurrected right then and there. They resurrected and are seen as an innumerable number way back 7 years earlier by John.
There is nothing in rev 20 pointing to a resurrection immediately post trib.
BTW, The rapture itself contains million of resurrected martyrs.
The martyrs resurrrected in a supposed postrib resurrection in rev 20, is the product of a very bad translation.
These things need test fit.

 

[Absolutely]

The great tribulation saints who will have died keeping the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who did not worship the beast, his image, nor receive his mark, will be resurrected when Christ returns to the earth.

Verse please

 

[Absolutely]

Well first, John says they were beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and because they did not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark. Then John says "they lived" and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Then regarding them, it says that this is the first resurrection. Therefore, it is clear that when it says "they were beheaded" and then "they lived" that they were resurrected. Therefore, it is not a poor translation, because the context demonstrates that they were dead and then resurrected. Below is the scripture:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those having been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who did not worship the beast, nor his image, and did not take the mark upon the forehead, and upon their hand. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

* Beheaded
* They lived (This is the first resurrection)

It's just a matter of looking at the entire context and not just focusing in on one word.

So you agree "came to life" is misleading since you no longer are using that?
Yes they obviously lived and came back to life. We agree.
But nothing,absolutely nothing says they were not martyerd 7 years prior when billions of martyrs lost their heads to the ac.

 

[Absolutely]

Well first, John says they were beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and because they did not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark. Then John says "they lived" and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Then regarding them, it says that this is the first resurrection. Therefore, it is clear that when it says "they were beheaded" and then "they lived" that they were resurrected. Therefore, it is not a poor translation, because the context demonstrates that they were dead and then resurrected. Below is the scripture:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those having been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who did not worship the beast, nor his image, and did not take the mark upon the forehead, and upon their hand. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

* Beheaded
* They lived (This is the first resurrection)

It's just a matter of looking at the entire context and not just focusing in on one word.

"First resurrection" is not after the gt.
Read of the wedding supper.
Jesus at the last supper said his next supper would be with them,in heaven.
The entire "first resurrection" will be with him,in heaven.
"This is the first resurrection" in rev 20 is CONTRASTING Against the second death,NOT ESTABLISHING A SINGLE GROUP of martyrs.

 

[Absolutely]

The fact that rev 20 says "this is the first resurrection" further points to them being part of the harvest towards the BEGINNING of the GT.
Then John SEEING THEM in heaven at the start of the gt seems to seal the position that they are part of a previous harvest.
Remember,there is that last segment harvested in rev 14.
No harvests after that,except for the winepress

 

[Absolutely]

....and BTW, REV 14 completely debunks any lingering notions that we have any viable reasonable positions that work other than pretrib.

 

[Absolutely]

Jesus is the first fruits, not those who came out of their graves. No one except for Christ has been resurrected in an immortal and glorified body. Jesus the first fruits, then those at His appearing, which would be the church.

I see your point.
Does not mean they didn't ascend to heaven.
Which is logical.
And they would have glorified bodies.

 

[Noose]

....and BTW, REV 14 completely debunks any lingering notions that we have any viable reasonable positions that work other than pretrib.

You really have no clue of what you say. There's really no such thing as rapture, no pretrib/mid trib/ post trib anything.

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that,we who are alive and remain will be caught uptogether with them in the clouds to meet the Lord inthe air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Why was Paul counting himself amongst those that will be alive when Jesus comes?

 

[Hevosmies]

Verse please

Revelation 20:1-5

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Not entirely sure the position you are defending,but your " point" speaks to MY position as correct.
Awatukee is implying,incorrectly, that they are ressurrected AT THAT POINT,directly AFTER the gt.
Not during the gt,but AFTER the gt.
So you are ,i think, saying that ,in defense of awatukee, that Jesus also resurrected in rev 2?
See the point? The appearance of a verse does not by " position" dictate timing/chronology. Rev 2 is NOT saying Jesus resurrected in rev 2.
The maryrs are mentioned in rev 20 as having been resurrected (" lived" to be exact).
Not as resurrected right then and there. They resurrected and are seen as an innumerable number way back 7 years earlier by John.
There is nothing in rev 20 pointing to a resurrection immediately post trib.
BTW, The rapture itself contains million of resurrected martyrs.
The martyrs resurrrected in a supposed postrib resurrection in rev 20, is the product of a very bad translation.
These things need test fit.

I believe the people in Rev7:9,14 are of the nations [plural; Gentiles] coming out of "the GREAT tribulation" (i.e. the 2nd half of the 7 years, not immediately before the start of the 7 yrs, as our Rapture is). Vv. 14-17 seem to correlate with Isa49:10 a "promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom" context/description (not a "Rapture" one). This shows their destination (commencing upon Christ's 2nd Coming to the earth). They are set in contradistinction to the 144,000 "of all the tribes of the children of Israel [singular nation]" listed there, in Rev7:3-8. So those "coming out of the GREAT tribulation" [the 2nd half] are ones being subjected to the ac's "causes all" [this just means that's his objective, not that every last person TAKES it] mark, as Rev20:4 says that certain ones were beheaded for NOT taking it.


Daniel 12:13 where Daniel was told he will "rest [that is, in death] and STAND IN THY LOT [be resurrected to stand again on the earth] at the END OF THE DAYS [at the END of the days referred to in THAT CONTEXT, Dan12:6-7,1 (the end of the 2nd half of trib)]" tells us that he [and thus other OT saints] will be resurrected [to stand again ON THE EARTH (for they were not promised "Rapture" which is SOLELY slated for "the Church which is His body" [Eph1:20-23; whereas Eph1:10/1Cor15:28 refers to after the earthly MK reign])], that is, be resurrected to stand again on the earth AT END/AFTER the trib (not "Raptured" [before it]).

So that, "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" IS the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (aka "the kingdom of the heavens [on the earth, upon His "RETURN" there]," aka "the meal" [Lk12:36-37,38,40], aka the "shall sit down [G347 - denoting 'at a meal/around a table']" [Matt8:11 and parallel (OT saints named there)], etc...

The Matthew 25:31-34 Sheep are (at that point) entering the promised and prophesied earthly MK (promised to Israel) BECAUSE they themselves will have "BLESSED" the least of these My brethren (the believing remnant of Israel/Jews who will have come to faith WITHIN the trib, and thus be being gravely persecuted at that time [having a msg of Truth not everyone will like/appreciate/believe]), and will thus themselves [the Sheep/Gentiles] be called "BLESSED" by our Lord, at that separation judgment, determining who will enter the earthly MK when He "comes" (to sit on that earthly throne).

 

[Ahwatukee]

The bible says all take the mark or die.
I seem to be the only one that believes that.

Hello Absolutely,

Just for the record, scripture never specifically states that "all take the mark or die." What it does say is as follows:

"The second beast was permitted to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship it to be killed. Regarding those not receiving the mark it states, that unless anyone had the mark they would not be able to buy or sell.

"And the second beast required all people small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark—the name of the beast or the number of his name."

Now, when it says "all who refused to worship the image must be killed" that is the deemed consequence for not doing so. However, it does not mean that everyone single person is caught and killed, else there would be Gentiles entering into the millennial period to repopulate the earth. It would be akin to our law which says, "if anyone commits murder, that person must be arrested and tried for that crime." However, not everyone who commits the act of murder is caught. We have plenty of scriptures that demonstrate that there will be great tribulation saints (Gentiles) who survive until Christ returns to the earth, else there would be no nations to beat their weapons of war into plowshares and pruning hooks. The scripture says "nations" not Israel.

 

[Ahwatukee]

"First resurrection" is not after the gt.
Read of the wedding supper.

The "first resurrection" has phases or stages to it:

* Jesus the first fruits (Already fulfilled)
* The church at the Lord's appearing (dead and living which is imminent)
* The Male Child i.e. 144,000 (Caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years)
* The Two Witnesses (killed in the middle of the seven years and resurrected and ascend)
* The great Tribulation saints (Resurrected when Christ returns to the earth to end the age and establish His kingdom)

All of the above take place prior to and at the beginning of the millennial period and belong to the first resurrection.

The resurrection which takes place at the end of the millennial kingdom will be for all of the unrighteous dead throughout all history of whom the second death will have power over (Rev.20:11-15)

Jesus at the last supper said his next supper would be with them,in heaven.

When Jesus said the above, He was speaking to His disciples and therefore to the church. The great tribulation saints will not be at the wedding because 1). they are not the bride. If they were, then they would have been ready when the Lord came for the church. And 2). They are killed during the last 3 1/2 of that seven year period by order of the beast and therefore, could not possibly be in heaven to attend the wedding of the Lamb, which will be in process at that time. The wedding of Lamb is where the bride/church receives her fine linen, white and pure:

"Let us rejoice and celebrate and give Him the glory. For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready. She was given clothing of fine linen, bright and pure.”

For the fine linen she wears is the righteous acts of the saints.

The wedding of the Lamb takes place during the time of God's wrath upon the earth, which is when the GTS will be killed because of their testimony for Jesus and the word of God and who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark. The GTS will be on the earth because they will have not be ready when the Lord appeared to gather the church.

The church is a specific group which was initiated by Christ and will be completed when the Lord appears to gather the entire church, which is next event to take place. The GTS will be those who will receive Christ after they realize that the church has been caught up and that during the time of God's wrath. The GTS do not belong to the church, nor does Israel or the 144,000. These are all different groups.

The church age ends at the time when the Lord appears to gather us.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"First resurrection" is not after the gt.
Read of the wedding supper.
Jesus at the last supper said his next supper would be with them,in heaven.

I disagree that Jesus, in saying what He did in Luke 22:30,16,18 (Matt19:28 [25:31-34 for timing]; Matt26:29; and all of the several "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" passages), meant that "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" would be located "IN HEAVEN," but rather in the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (upon His "RETURN" there). The distinction between Rev19:7's "aorist" (already-wed "MARRIAGE" itself, IN HEAVEN) and Rev19:9's NOT aorist (but where He will then, at that time, be headed DOWN TO, WITH His "already-wed Bride/Wife [singular]" FOR the earthly MK/wedding FEAST-SUPPER--where the "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" passages pick up, where the "guests [plural]," and the "bridesmaids/virgins [plural]," and the "servants [plural; of that specific time period]" continue the chronology... [the "Bride/Wife [singular]" not being mentioned in those gospel accounts/passages]...)