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L
As a wise man once said, "Pray for pre trib rapture, BUT prepare for POST!"
Coop
L
The way I read it heaven is not determined as to length. And The Seven is forever, with the Lord .No time is known. He and all his will be forever with the Lord.walt2000[/COLOR][/SIZE]
OF COURSE time is known. John showed us the last half of the week FIVE DIFFERENT times, and three different ways, so we would not miss it. So a simple multiplication: 2 times 1260 days or 2 times 42 months gives us the EXACT time of the 70th week. The pretrib rapture will take place just before the week begins. (It begins at the 7th seal.) Then, when Jesus comes back as seen in Rev. 19, THE BRIDE COMES WITH HIM. So as I said, we will be there about 7 years, but a little longer, for John shows us that the marriage and marriage supper will be AFTER the 70th week has finished with the 7th vial. Of course we will be forever with the Lord. We agree there.
Coop
L
The problem with this teaching is I have heard and read convincing arguments with scriptures to back up both theologies to the point where I believe NO ONE knows except God himself whether or not we are going to be spared.
So with that being typed the point I was trying to get across is, IF your theology proves wrong and IF in the event you are not spared torture or being put to death for your testimony in Christ Jesus you are going to completely be unprepared for you are convinced NOTHING bad is ever going to happen to you because of this teaching.
I find that totally unprepared for reality. For example, the young woman shot to death at Columbine High School confessed Jesus as she died. She was not around for the rapture. Do you really think your rapture arguments will help someone in that situation? I am amazed that you really think that God will protect you from persecution when he promises just the opposite, that we will be persecuted for his name's sake.
It is pretty galling and arrogant to think you are better than Peter and Paul.
So with that being typed the point I was trying to get across is, IF your theology proves wrong and IF in the event you are not spared torture or being put to death for your testimony in Christ Jesus you are going to completely be unprepared for you are convinced NOTHING bad is ever going to happen to you because of this teaching.
I find that totally unprepared for reality. For example, the young woman shot to death at Columbine High School confessed Jesus as she died. She was not around for the rapture. Do you really think your rapture arguments will help someone in that situation? I am amazed that you really think that God will protect you from persecution when he promises just the opposite, that we will be persecuted for his name's sake.
It is pretty galling and arrogant to think you are better than Peter and Paul.
Paul's doctrine will NEVER be proved wrong, and He shows us clearly in 1 Thes 5, that the rapture is BEFORE the start of the day of the Lord. The persecution will only get WORSE. At the time of the rapture, people will be dying for their testimony around the world. We haven't seen anything yet here in the US. But that has NOTHING to do with the 70th week or the time the Antichrist has been given authority over the saints. Luke wrote that we could ESCAPE from those days of great tribulation. Paul confirms that. John confirms that in Rev. That is three proofs.
You are so mistaken: I am NOT teaching that nothing bad will happen. I AM teaching what the rapture of the church will come BEFORE the 70th week. You are trying to compare oranges with golf balls. They are both round, but that is as far as you can push it. Christians have tribulation. Paul said it. It is truth. But God did NOT SET AN APPOINTMENT for us to face the Antichrist when he has been given authority over the church. That is total myth.
Coop
W
Here they are. SEVEN Complete STORIES.
1=Rev.6-8/3 Read only the Seals.
2=Rev.8/4 - 11/19 Read only Trumpets.
3=Rev. 10-11/13 Read only Witnesses.
4=Rev. 12-15 Read only Earth.
5=Rev.14/6-15/5 Read only The Word.Babylon,With Wine-press, Preaching to the World.
6=Rev.15/6-16 Read only Man.
7=Rev.17-20 read only Babylon Has Fallen ,The Whore.With Wine-press.
Seven separate story's, all end with a scene in Heaven.
Take your time .And don't mix them up.and don't use any other opinion , or book in the Bible .
Rev. 22/18-19 .walt2000
1=Rev.6-8/3 Read only the Seals.
2=Rev.8/4 - 11/19 Read only Trumpets.
3=Rev. 10-11/13 Read only Witnesses.
4=Rev. 12-15 Read only Earth.
5=Rev.14/6-15/5 Read only The Word.Babylon,With Wine-press, Preaching to the World.
6=Rev.15/6-16 Read only Man.
7=Rev.17-20 read only Babylon Has Fallen ,The Whore.With Wine-press.
Seven separate story's, all end with a scene in Heaven.
Take your time .And don't mix them up.and don't use any other opinion , or book in the Bible .
Rev. 22/18-19 .walt2000
L
Here they are. SEVEN Complete STORIES.
1=Rev.6-8/3 Read only the Seals.
2=Rev.8/4 - 11/19 Read only Trumpets.
3=Rev. 10-11/13 Read only Witnesses.
4=Rev. 12-15 Read only Earth.
5=Rev.14/6-15/5 Read only The Word.Babylon,With Wine-press, Preaching to the World.
6=Rev.15/6-16 Read only Man.
7=Rev.17-20 read only Babylon Has Fallen ,The Whore.With Wine-press.
Seven separate story's, all end with a scene in Heaven.
Take your time .And don't mix them up.and don't use any other opinion , or book in the Bible .
Rev. 22/18-19 .walt2000
1=Rev.6-8/3 Read only the Seals.
2=Rev.8/4 - 11/19 Read only Trumpets.
3=Rev. 10-11/13 Read only Witnesses.
4=Rev. 12-15 Read only Earth.
5=Rev.14/6-15/5 Read only The Word.Babylon,With Wine-press, Preaching to the World.
6=Rev.15/6-16 Read only Man.
7=Rev.17-20 read only Babylon Has Fallen ,The Whore.With Wine-press.
Seven separate story's, all end with a scene in Heaven.
Take your time .And don't mix them up.and don't use any other opinion , or book in the Bible .
Rev. 22/18-19 .walt2000
He tells you eight times that the rapture is coming just before the wine-press,( the harvest ) .walt2000
So we have 7 seals. Let me help you out here.
I will give the the same three questions the Holy Spirit gave me, for chapter 4:
1) In a vision seen about 95 AD, WHY was Jesus not seen at the right hand of the Father? We have a dozen verses telling us that is where He went to be.
2) WHY was "no many found" who could break the seals in the first search John got to watch? Again, in 95 AD Jesus has long since become the redeemer.
3) Why was the Holy Spirit seen in the throne room, when Jesus said that as soon as He ascended, He would send the Holy Spirit down.
When you find the right answer to these questions, you will have the context of the first seal.
By the way, the seals are the ONLY way to get to the trumpets. The 7 broken seals allow the scroll to be opened up.
The seven trumpets are JUDGMENTS on the earth - a part of the Day of the Lord. The first trumpet BEGINS the day, but it cannot be sounded until the 7th seal officially opens the Day and the 70th week.
Rev.14/6-15/5
First comes three angels - each preaching a different message. The first message is to fear God and worship Him. Very soon after this, the Beast will deceive the whole world into worshiping him - all those whose names are not written in heaven.
The second message is a PROPHECY of the destruction of Babylon. It is not fulfill here in chapter 14. It is fulfilled at the 7th vial. And the Babylon the angel is speaking of is "that great city," Jerusalem. It is destined to be destroyed - as a city that deceives the entire world. God's plan from the Old covenant was that the world would KNOW HIM through Jerusalem - but that was only true while Solomon was King.
The third message is a warning not to take the mark - including the consequences if they do.
Next is the visions of the two great harvests. These too are PROPHECY. Humans are not harvested with sickles. And neither harvest, for the righteous or for the wicked, take place in chapter 14. These are given as PROPHECIES. For example, the harvest of the wicked would SURELY include Armageddon, and that will not happen until chapter 19. By 14:13, the Antichrist Beast will have started his murdering/beheading of all Christians and Jews.
Chapter 15 shows us those that the Beast put to death.
So this section tells us SEVERAL stories.
Rev 17 and 18 give us a CLOSE UP view of the destruction of Babylon, which is really Jerusalem. She is destroyed at the 7th vial. Rev 19 shows us the marriage and supper, then the return of Christ WITH His church to fight the battle of Armageddon. Finally, chapter 20 shows us the 1000 years, with Satan bound and the resurrections, some to life eternal and some to death eternal - but the second death resurrection is not until the 1000 years are over.
In reality, NONE of these are saying anything about the rapture of the church.
Coop
L
At that time, Satan was the god of the world, and there was little that God could do.WHAT!!!!!!!!!! NOTHING ...God could do?
Coop
L
I thought Jesus destroyed death , and took the keys to hell and the grave himself.
Death is the final enemy to be destroyed. For us it will not be destroyed until the rapture, or for those left behind, and lose their head to the Beast, when they are resurrected. For the Old testament saints, not until they are resurrected at the 7th vial.
There is a great misconception: that if something happens on the earth, then it must have been the will of God. Truthfully, nothing could be further from the truth. MUCH happens on earth that is not His will. That is why He taught us to pray, "thy will be done on earth...." Train wrecks are NOT his will. Disasters are NOT His will. Wars are NOT His will. People that could be saved, DIE and lose any chance of salvation. This is NOT HIS WILL. His will is that NONE perish, but that all come to repentance. Tornadoes and hurricanes and floods and tsunamis are not His will. Again, people die. But these things happen because SATAN is the god of this present world. These things happen as birth pains as the planet strives to be set free from sin.
However, IN disasters, God can and does protect. I saw where the F-5 tornado hit Oklahoma city. Literally hundreds of houses all gone but the foundation. Hundreds could have been killed, but they were not. VERY few lost their life. I am convinced that was God. But when whole nations turn against a race, such as Germany did in the 40's, there was little that God could do. He sent many out before the holocaust started. But soon the devil blocked all paths of escape. Still, God saved some. But He did not have the authority to just move and wipe Germany off the map! He did not have that authority, because He had given it to Adam and Adam gave it to Satan. However, God used US to do it.
Is there murders in heaven? Of course not!
Do people die in heaven? NEVER!
Are there accidents in heaven? Surely NOT!
This then, is the perfect will of God for the earth too. And we will get there, ONLY when Jesus sets up His kingdom.
Coop
W
I guess this is you answering this?
And I had asked you to show me these eight.
So we have 7 seals. Let me help you out here.
I will give the the same three questions the Holy Spirit gave me, for chapter 4:
1) In a vision seen about 95 AD, WHY was Jesus not seen at the right hand of the Father? We have a dozen verses telling us that is where He went to be.
2) WHY was "no many found" who could break the seals in the first search John got to watch? Again, in 95 AD Jesus has long since become the redeemer.
3) Why was the Holy Spirit seen in the throne room, when Jesus said that as soon as He ascended, He would send the Holy Spirit down.
When you find the right answer to these questions, you will have the context of the first seal.
By the way, the seals are the ONLY way to get to the trumpets. The 7 broken seals allow the scroll to be opened up.
The seven trumpets are JUDGMENTS on the earth - a part of the Day of the Lord. The first trumpet BEGINS the day, but it cannot be sounded until the 7th seal officially opens the Day and the 70th week.
Rev.14/6-15/5
First comes three angels - each preaching a different message. The first message is to fear God and worship Him. Very soon after this, the Beast will deceive the whole world into worshiping him - all those whose names are not written in heaven.
The second message is a PROPHECY of the destruction of Babylon. It is not fulfill here in chapter 14. It is fulfilled at the 7th vial. And the Babylon the angel is speaking of is "that great city," Jerusalem. It is destined to be destroyed - as a city that deceives the entire world. God's plan from the Old covenant was that the world would KNOW HIM through Jerusalem - but that was only true while Solomon was King.
The third message is a warning not to take the mark - including the consequences if they do.
Next is the visions of the two great harvests. These too are PROPHECY. Humans are not harvested with sickles. And neither harvest, for the righteous or for the wicked, take place in chapter 14. These are given as PROPHECIES. For example, the harvest of the wicked would SURELY include Armageddon, and that will not happen until chapter 19. By 14:13, the Antichrist Beast will have started his murdering/beheading of all Christians and Jews.
Chapter 15 shows us those that the Beast put to death.
So this section tells us SEVERAL stories.
Rev 17 and 18 give us a CLOSE UP view of the destruction of Babylon, which is really Jerusalem. She is destroyed at the 7th vial. Rev 19 shows us the marriage and supper, then the return of Christ WITH His church to fight the battle of Armageddon. Finally, chapter 20 shows us the 1000 years, with Satan bound and the resurrections, some to life eternal and some to death eternal - but the second death resurrection is not until the 1000 years are over.
In reality, NONE of these are saying anything about the rapture of the church.
Coop
And I had asked you to show me these eight.
So we have 7 seals. Let me help you out here.
I will give the the same three questions the Holy Spirit gave me, for chapter 4:
1) In a vision seen about 95 AD, WHY was Jesus not seen at the right hand of the Father? We have a dozen verses telling us that is where He went to be.
2) WHY was "no many found" who could break the seals in the first search John got to watch? Again, in 95 AD Jesus has long since become the redeemer.
3) Why was the Holy Spirit seen in the throne room, when Jesus said that as soon as He ascended, He would send the Holy Spirit down.
When you find the right answer to these questions, you will have the context of the first seal.
By the way, the seals are the ONLY way to get to the trumpets. The 7 broken seals allow the scroll to be opened up.
The seven trumpets are JUDGMENTS on the earth - a part of the Day of the Lord. The first trumpet BEGINS the day, but it cannot be sounded until the 7th seal officially opens the Day and the 70th week.
Rev.14/6-15/5
First comes three angels - each preaching a different message. The first message is to fear God and worship Him. Very soon after this, the Beast will deceive the whole world into worshiping him - all those whose names are not written in heaven.
The second message is a PROPHECY of the destruction of Babylon. It is not fulfill here in chapter 14. It is fulfilled at the 7th vial. And the Babylon the angel is speaking of is "that great city," Jerusalem. It is destined to be destroyed - as a city that deceives the entire world. God's plan from the Old covenant was that the world would KNOW HIM through Jerusalem - but that was only true while Solomon was King.
The third message is a warning not to take the mark - including the consequences if they do.
Next is the visions of the two great harvests. These too are PROPHECY. Humans are not harvested with sickles. And neither harvest, for the righteous or for the wicked, take place in chapter 14. These are given as PROPHECIES. For example, the harvest of the wicked would SURELY include Armageddon, and that will not happen until chapter 19. By 14:13, the Antichrist Beast will have started his murdering/beheading of all Christians and Jews.
Chapter 15 shows us those that the Beast put to death.
So this section tells us SEVERAL stories.
Rev 17 and 18 give us a CLOSE UP view of the destruction of Babylon, which is really Jerusalem. She is destroyed at the 7th vial. Rev 19 shows us the marriage and supper, then the return of Christ WITH His church to fight the battle of Armageddon. Finally, chapter 20 shows us the 1000 years, with Satan bound and the resurrections, some to life eternal and some to death eternal - but the second death resurrection is not until the 1000 years are over.
In reality, NONE of these are saying anything about the rapture of the church.
Coop
L
Coop .You read like a southern baptist. Or nondenominational am I right?. walt2000
I am not only nondenominational, I am VERY Pentecostal, meaning I pray in the spirit a LOT. It is the way to revelation knowledge. But what I write about Revelation comes from no denomination. It comes from HIM.
Coop
W
I'm sure it doesn't Matter on your religion, One seems to reflect ones youth and influences. I don't agree on your interpretation Of Revelation, But as long as your a Christian, your are a brother. I'm Sure you and I could have some inspiring conversations about the Subject . I have studied your interpretation in the past . There are as many versions on the subject as one can imagine.walt2000
W
The interpation of Revelations - Christian Forums
COOP,When you have a moment check
http://www.christianforums.com/t7279831/
this out. walt2000
COOP,When you have a moment check
http://www.christianforums.com/t7279831/
this out. walt2000