Giving money to church

[Jackson123]

Hello everybody,

My first post on here, which I'd like to use to reach out to the wider Christian community for genuine advice.

I'd like to begin by setting a foundation.
My own beliefs (yours may differ) with regards to giving money to church is that if a large enough group of people come together on a regular basis such that rental or upkeep of a separate property is justified, then it is those people that should pay for it.

Therefore I don't have a problem in principle with giving to church, although everybody's financial situation is different: students, the affluent, the less well off, businesses at startup stage where cash is even more crucial, and do on.

I also believe that your relationship with God is personal, and that attendance at a church isn't even necessary to have a relationship with God.

So that sets the scene for my belief and my pragmatic approach.

The reason I'm posting this is because I am a member of a pentacostal Church in Newcastle (UK) and I feel that I am, essentially, being peer pressured to give financially to church.

It's not quite at the hassling stage yet, but certainly at the stage where I feel I've joined a member's club and I've come to the end of the free trial and now it's time to pay up.

There is in my view nothing wrong with 'passing the plate' or having the occasional reminder that the church is funded by donations, but there are talks on stage every other week, as well as various forms of giving:
The usual tithes, followed by a miracle offering which is basically an additional large collection once per year, then you've got prayer offerings which are collected for visiting speakers.

I feel that there is too much of a focus on money.

I run my own small business, which is in the startup stage.

The church also runs something called 'Kingdom Builders' which is an 'opportunity' for people who the church feels can afford to give more to go along and do just that, while being made to feel that they're a member of a special club.

Since starting my business I have been invited to Kingdom Builders, and I've also had people who are considered senior figures in the church talk to me about my own giving.
"I think you could be more generous with your money" and "so, when are YOU going to make a commitment to God and start tithing" has been said to me.

What do we think?

Thank you in advance for your advice.

Most blessings.

Give to church some time doesn't mean give to the Lord. Some church use the money for luxury.

Give to the Lord not always to the Local church, you can send to the poor church in other town or country

But the bible promise a blessing for the true giver.


Luke 6:38 King James Version (KJV)
38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.


My cousin was tell me the story of his family. His parent wasn't have a job and living from our grandma allowance. From that small allowance they give 10% to the Lord. And they tray to do small bussiness, and buy 50 chicken.

A years goes by, they own a truck, 500 thosand chicken, build nice house.

 

[ComeLordJesus]

There are many brances of Baptist churches. I know for a fact that Southern Baptist churches are notorious for their boxes of contribution envelopes.

You have things like the Lottie Moon Chrsitmas Offering and the Annie Armstrong Easter Offering.

 

[Adam77]

You have things like the Lottie Moon Chrsitmas Offering and the Annie Armstrong Easter Offering.

Really!
At our church we only have:

General 'compulsory' tithes and offerings

Annual miracle offering: Another opportunity to give a super big donation, so get selling your unwanted items on ebay!

Prayer offerings: Money collected so that visiting speakers, usually in the circle of friends of the pastor and the in-crowd, can be sent on their merry way with a pocket full of cash.

Kingdom Builders: If for whatever reason it is felt that you can afford to give even more (high paying job, own a business, whatever) you'll be invited to a 'special event' where for a couple of hours you'll be made to feel 'exclusive' and have smoke rings blown up your behind in an attempt to extract more money from your bank account through the process of osmosis.

Plus an additional collection at Christmas.

 

[maxwel]

Adam77,


1. Although churches need money to operate, if the FOCUS of a church is on money, then their focus is on the wrong thing.

2. From your comments you already sound very disturbed by this whole thing, and like you've already decided they're focusing on the wrong things.

3. I think you already have your answers; the question is what are you going to do?


...

 

[Adam77]

Adam77,


1. Although churches need money to operate, if the FOCUS of a church is on money, then their focus is on the wrong thing.

2. From your comments you already sound very disturbed by this whole thing, and like you've already decided they're focusing on the wrong things.

3. I think you already have your answers; the question is what are you going to do?
...

You are correct.

I'm questioning these things not only because something seems off but because on a personal level, an enormous amount of time and energy has gone into considering leaving.

Well there's no other option is there?
It's a waste of time talking scripture to people who aren't actually preaching scripture.

Being chased for my money while running a new business, and having my faith called into question, while at the same time having a strong enough head to know that my alarms are going for good reason, is emotionally draining.

It effects the way you look at the church along with the people in it.

It even starts to make you question if you're aligned with the right thing, especially if you've been brought up in a church like this and never experienced anything else.

I don't want to go through an ironic process of feeling that I'm being pushed away from God by a church.

I know Jesus is lord and saviour, and I see this as somewhat of a test, or something put in the way of a deeper relationship with God.

I will move, but I'll use this to allow my faith to grow stronger.

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

Does Christ rebuke the devourer if the Believer in Christ doesn't tithe?
Can a Christian test God in the New Testament? If so how?
Can a Christian live in the open windows of Heaven if they don't tithe?

Please post your scripture(s) to support your statement.

“8 Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me. But you say, Wherein have we robbed You? In Tithes and offerings. (The question, “Will a man rob God?”, is blunt and to the point; it instantly portrayed Israel’s present condition, in that they had, in fact, robbed God! “Yet you have robbed Me!” proclaims unequivocally that they had robbed God, which is a serious charge indeed!

The question, “But you say, Wherein have we robbed You?”, brings back the quick answer through the Prophet, “In Tithes and offerings.” Some claim that “tithes” are a part of the old Mosaic system and are not applicable under the New Covenant! However, paying tithes was practiced long before the Law [Gen. 14:20; 28:22]; it was also commanded under Grace in the New Testament [Mat. 23:23; Rom. 2:22; I Cor. 9:7-14; 16:2; Gal. 6:6; Heb. 7:1-10].”

“Abraham, a type of all Believers, paid tithes to Melchizedek, a Type of Christ [Gen. 14:20], which sets the standard; inasmuch as we are children of Abraham, we are to continue to pay tithes to the Work of God, which, in effect, is the propagation of the Message of Christ and Him Crucified [Gal. 3:6-7; I Cor. 1:23].)

9 You are cursed with a curse: for you have robbed Me, even this whole nation. (“You are cursed with a curse,” is dire indeed! The effect of this curse was scarcity and barrenness, as we see from Verses 10 through 12. Robbing God of tithes and offerings brings a curse. These belong to God by virtue of Covenant agreements with man; to use them for personal gain is robbery of that which rightly belongs to Him.

The phrase, “For you have robbed Me, even this whole nation,” proclaims the reason for the poverty, among other things, of the nations of the world.)”

JSM

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

“8 Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me. But you say, Wherein have we robbed You? In Tithes and offerings. (The question, “Will a man rob God?”, is blunt and to the point; it instantly portrayed Israel’s present condition, in that they had, in fact, robbed God! “Yet you have robbed Me!” proclaims unequivocally that they had robbed God, which is a serious charge indeed!

The question, “But you say, Wherein have we robbed You?”, brings back the quick answer through the Prophet, “In Tithes and offerings.” Some claim that “tithes” are a part of the old Mosaic system and are not applicable under the New Covenant! However, paying tithes was practiced long before the Law [Gen. 14:20; 28:22]; it was also commanded under Grace in the New Testament [Mat. 23:23; Rom. 2:22; I Cor. 9:7-14; 16:2; Gal. 6:6; Heb. 7:1-10].”

“Abraham, a type of all Believers, paid tithes to Melchizedek, a Type of Christ [Gen. 14:20], which sets the standard; inasmuch as we are children of Abraham, we are to continue to pay tithes to the Work of God, which, in effect, is the propagation of the Message of Christ and Him Crucified [Gal. 3:6-7; I Cor. 1:23].)

9 You are cursed with a curse: for you have robbed Me, even this whole nation. (“You are cursed with a curse,” is dire indeed! The effect of this curse was scarcity and barrenness, as we see from Verses 10 through 12. Robbing God of tithes and offerings brings a curse. These belong to God by virtue of Covenant agreements with man; to use them for personal gain is robbery of that which rightly belongs to Him.

The phrase, “For you have robbed Me, even this whole nation,” proclaims the reason for the poverty, among other things, of the nations of the world.)”

JSM

“10 Bring you all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in My House, and prove Me now herewith, says the LORD of Hosts, if I will not open you the Windows of Heaven, and pour you out a Blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. (“Bring you all the tithes into the storehouse,” referred to the Temple and cities of the Levites under the Old Covenant. Under the New Covenant, it refers to the place where one’s soul is fed, wherever that might be. Some have claimed that the local Church is the “storehouse” where all giving is to be brought; however, that is incorrect, inasmuch as those who propose such fail to understand what “Church” actually is! “Church” is made up of all members of the Body of Christ, irrespective of who they are or where they are. It has nothing to do with the building, organization, or religious institution. It is the “Message” which must be supported — not an institution.”

“The phrase, “That there may be meat in My House,” has reference to the support of the Priesthood in the Temple of old. The Lord has no such “house” at present, because Jesus fulfilled all that the ancient Temple represented, with Him now residing through the agency of the Holy Spirit in the hearts and lives of all Believers [I Cor. 3:16].

“And prove Me now herewith, says the LORD of Hosts,” presents a challenge presented by the Lord for men to prove Him regarding the rewards of tithing. “If I will not open you the Windows of Heaven, and pour you out a Blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it,” speaks of a superabundant amount. The same phrase, “Windows of Heaven,” is used in Gen. 7:11 regarding the flood; therefore, we are speaking of Blessings unparalleled!)”

JSM

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

“11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, says the LORD of Hosts. (In the first phrase, the Holy Spirit uses the word “devourer”; then, He uses the pronoun “he,” symbolizing a personality behind the destruction, i.e., Satan. As well, the word “rebuke” means “to turn back” or “keep down.”

So, if we fail to give to God, the Lord proclaims that He will not turn back the “devourer.” This will result in the “fruits” of our efforts being destroyed. To give to God means the opposite. Crops will be abundant, with efforts resulting in prosperity.

The last phrase simply speaks of the harvest being gathered, and abundantly so, and not being lost.)

12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for you shall be a delightsome land, says the LORD of Hosts. (The first phrase speaks of the Blessings of the Lord as being so abundant that other nations will enquire as to the reason.)”

JSM

 

[Dino246]

“8 Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me. But you say, Wherein have we robbed You? In Tithes and offerings. (The question, “Will a man rob God?”, is blunt and to the point; it instantly portrayed Israel’s present condition, in that they had, in fact, robbed God! “Yet you have robbed Me!” proclaims unequivocally that they had robbed God, which is a serious charge indeed!...

Will a man follow the Law of Moses to attain righteousness? No. Malachi was written to Israel, under the Mosaic Law.

 

[Dino246]

“10 Bring you all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in My House, and prove Me now herewith, says the LORD of Hosts, if I will not open you the Windows of Heaven, and pour you out a Blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

The local church is not the storehouse. "Outsair" (the Hebrew word for storehouse) means... storehouse... a place where agricultural produce was stored until it was used.

 

[Dino246]

However, paying tithes was practiced long before the Law [Gen. 14:20; 28:22]; it was also commanded under Grace in the New Testament [Mat. 23:23; Rom. 2:22; I Cor. 9:7-14; 16:2; Gal. 6:6; Heb. 7:1-10].”

"Paying tithes" was only instituted as a commandment under Moses, in Leviticus. Abraham's tithe to Melchizedek is not an exemplar for Christians... unless of course they are collecting the spoils of war.

Matthew 23:23 was spoken to Israelites under the Mosaic Law.

Romans 2:22 says nothing at all about money, let alone tithing.

1 Corinthians doesn't mention tithing at all.

Galatians 6:6 doesn't mention tithing or money.

Hebrews 7 does not command anyone to tithe; it only mentions tithing in the context of establishing the greatness of Melchizedek as a type of Christ.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

I don't understand all the Animus towards giving. understanding that under Christ we are under the new law which is the law of Liberty and of love. If you love God and you love Jesus then you love his children, and you loved his ministry. If you love his ministry and he loved his children and you love his Commandments, then why wouldn't you give to support it. We as Christians do not give out of compulsion we give because we love God and we love our lord Jesus. And if we love them, then we give to support the continuation of they're teaching and Commandments, and the spreading of his teachings and Commandments to others. Soul Purpose in your heart some amount to give and sit in your heart a goal to increase that gift at some point in time.

 

[Dino246]

I don't understand all the Animus towards giving. understanding that under Christ we are under the new law which is the law of Liberty and of love. If you love God and you love Jesus then you love his children, and you loved his ministry. If you love his ministry and he loved his children and you love his Commandments, then why wouldn't you give to support it....

You don’t seem to grasp the distinction between giving and tithing. When you conflate the two ideas you end up with legalistic compulsion. I haven’t seen any animus towards giving.

 

[ComeLordJesus]

Really!
At our church we only have:

General 'compulsory' tithes and offerings

Annual miracle offering: Another opportunity to give a super big donation, so get selling your unwanted items on ebay!

Prayer offerings: Money collected so that visiting speakers, usually in the circle of friends of the pastor and the in-crowd, can be sent on their merry way with a pocket full of cash.

Kingdom Builders: If for whatever reason it is felt that you can afford to give even more (high paying job, own a business, whatever) you'll be invited to a 'special event' where for a couple of hours you'll be made to feel 'exclusive' and have smoke rings blown up your behind in an attempt to extract more money from your bank account through the process of osmosis.

Plus an additional collection at Christmas.

I would imagine that there are plenty of those things too but this was about boxes of contribution envelopes which the two I showed is just two of many.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

You don’t seem to grasp the distinction between giving and tithing. When you conflate the two ideas you end up with legalistic compulsion. I haven’t seen any animus towards giving.

Tithe simply means tenth, ...sure there is a legalistic mind set about it, but I am all about breaking legalism, and man made traditionalism. If I say I give a tithe, it means I give a tenth, nothing more nothing less. As Christians we need to learn to kick legalism and all its facets to the curb. This even mean associated legalistic vernacular, lingo, connotation, implication, and semantics. It's ok if a person says they tithe. It just means the give a tenth. Or if the observe the Sabbath that simply means they purposefully rest on the seventh day rather than work. Good for them if that's how they choose to honor God, because it's the fact that we choose to honor God. We can honor God in many ways. Isn't it written, one man eats and another does not. Let them both be full convinced, because they both do so unto God. And one man esteems one day as holy and to another they are all the same because they hold their conviction unto God. This let oneam tithe and another give as he purposes in his heart as long as they both do it to honor God. They are not breaking any moral law let them be. Leave such things between them and God.

 

[Dino246]

Tithe simply means tenth, ...sure there is a legalistic mind set about it, but I am all about breaking legalism, and man made traditionalism. If I say I give a tithe, it means I give a tenth, nothing more nothing less. As Christians we need to learn to kick legalism and all its facets to the curb. This even mean associated legalistic vernacular, lingo, connotation, implication, and semantics. It's ok if a person says they tithe. It just means the give a tenth. Or if the observe the Sabbath that simply means they purposefully rest on the seventh day rather than work. Good for them if that's how they choose to honor God, because it's the fact that we choose to honor God. We can honor God in many ways. Isn't it written, one man eats and another does not. Let them both be full convinced, because they both do so unto God. And one man esteems one day as holy and to another they are all the same because they hold their conviction unto God. This let oneam tithe and another give as he purposes in his heart as long as they both do it to honor God. They are not breaking any moral law let them be. Leave such things between them and God.

While I agree that "tithe" means "tenth", it has come to be used as a pseudonym for "giving" generally. There are two problems with that: first, many people say things like, "I tithe five percent" or "I tithe 11%"... or even "I tithe my time", which all show a lack of understanding, and perpetuate confusion about the meaning of the term; and second, the tithes recorded in the Bible were only voluntary on one occasion: when Abraham gave to Melchizedek. The rest were compulsory. Complementary to this is the fact that tithing on monetary income is never commanded in Scripture.

Of course the amount a person gives is between them and God. We aren't discussing what people actually give. Rather, we are discussion what people should give, according to Scripture or, in the OP's case, the local church teachings/requirements. Paul was firm in correcting the Galatians who chose to follow the Law regarding circumcision; you might argue that they weren't doing anything morally wrong either, and that both sides were seeking to honour God. Far better that people give generously on the basis of understanding Scripture correctly, rather than feeling obligated, however slightly, on the basis of wrong or incomplete understanding.

 

[Adam77]

We aren't discussing what people actually give. Rather, we are discussion what people should give, according to Scripture or, in the OP's case, the local church teachings/requirements.

Thank you.
Indeed, whether purposeful or accidental, the water continues to be muddied by people who are not reading the original post which sets out my pragmatic and fair opinion on general giving and not reading the entire thread, although fair I suppose as there are 5 pages at this point.

This is not about "churches have bills to pay and we have to acknowledge that they are, by and large, funded by voluntary donations (as they should be)".
This is about being pressurised and hounded to pay up.

Perhaps there is a larger reality here.
Given the sad economic reality that there are very many people worldwide struggling to make ends meat, let alone a decent living, most just don't have the spare cash to give a significant amount to church, if any at all.
But on the other side many community churches have been operating for hundreds of years and are considered a 'village tradition' (not that anybody goes to them, just nice to have them there, kind of like local pubs), pastors enthusiastically enter service having possibly studied religious studies at university (or something else at that level) and expect to make a decent living, and the non-religious tax payer would go mad if their tax money were to pay for the upkeep of religious buildings on large and ongoing scale.
But if the declining (and perhaps generally less well off, though the economic background of church members is actually irrelevant) membership of church feel they have a choice, the church would find itself in a sorry state.
So the church effectively uses its purportedly superior knowledge of scripture to manipulate people into handing over their money, when in fact they're already one of the richest institutions on the planet.

Thank you to everyone who has spoken to me about this.

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

Thank you.
Indeed, whether purposeful or accidental, the water continues to be muddied by people who are not reading the original post which sets out my pragmatic and fair opinion on general giving and not reading the entire thread, although fair I suppose as there are 5 pages at this point.

This is not about "churches have bills to pay and we have to acknowledge that they are, by and large, funded by voluntary donations (as they should be)".
This is about being pressurised and hounded to pay up.

Perhaps there is a larger reality here.
Given the sad economic reality that there are very many people worldwide struggling to make ends meat, let alone a decent living, most just don't have the spare cash to give a significant amount to church, if any at all.
But on the other side many community churches have been operating for hundreds of years and are considered a 'village tradition' (not that anybody goes to them, just nice to have them there, kind of like local pubs), pastors enthusiastically enter service having possibly studied religious studies at university (or something else at that level) and expect to make a decent living, and the non-religious tax payer would go mad if their tax money were to pay for the upkeep of religious buildings on large and ongoing scale.
But if the declining (and perhaps generally less well off, though the economic background of church members is actually irrelevant) membership of church feel they have a choice, the church would find itself in a sorry state.
So the church effectively uses its purportedly superior knowledge of scripture to manipulate people into handing over their money, when in fact they're already one of the richest institutions on the planet.

Thank you to everyone who has spoken to me about this.

The reason why Christians are struggling is because God is not first, so they get to take care of themselves (Matthew 6:33). For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also (Matthew 6:21).

 

[p_rehbein]

I wonder why no one seems to complain when Churches give money to people? You know......those struggling to pay their rent, power bill, and/or purchase groceries? Never see a Thread were folks are complaining about that......

Y'all EVER WONDER where that money comes from?

 

[Adam77]

Again

I wonder why no one seems to complain when Churches give money to people? You know......those struggling to pay their rent, power bill, and/or purchase groceries? Never see a Thread were folks are complaining about that......

Y'all EVER WONDER where that money comes from?

View attachment 189858

Again, you're totally misunderstanding.

Reread my original post.
This isn't about giving to church.

This is about being chased and hounded for money, and the church having a focus on money.