Eternal Security/OSAS is Bad Doctrine

[Argueless]

As God’s fellow workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. 2 Corinthians 6:1

...For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Jude 1:4

 

[Sketch]

WHAT!!? Why would God revoke our Salvation, unless it is because of something WE did? P4T is right. This is nothing more than saying WE can do something to lose our Salvation, which at it's essence boils down to a works, or obedience for salvation doctrine.

This is interesting.
I never encountered such hardline OSAS believers before.
To the point of even denying what the scriptures clearly teach.

I had thought that "OSAS" was a false label applied to those who believe in eternal security, as I do.

I do believe that there is nothing we can do to lose our salvation.
With the extreme exception of complete apostasy. (rejecting Christ and leaving the faith never to return)
But for some reason that puts me beyond the limits with you folks.

It seems that your position boils down to...
If someone falls away from the faith, they were never really saved in the first place.
But how are these things measured?

When is a person "really" saved? When has a person "really" fallen away?
And for that matter, WHAT did they fall away from? From not being saved in the first place?
That's ridiculous.

 

[dcontroversal]

Do you LOVE God?

Do you LOVE Jesus Christ our LORD?

If you do, OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS. john 14:15

Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to ENTER LIFE, obey the commandments.” Matthew 19:16-17

Are you TEACHING obedience to God?

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Matthew 28:18-20

Children of God
And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming. If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him. 1 John 2:28-29

The Children of the Devil
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, YOU WOULD LOVE ME, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”John 8:42-47

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did1 John 2:3-6

Are you IN Jesus and WALKING as He did?

And this is love: that we WALK in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

Those who do not obey God's commandments do not love God and are therefore not children of God but enemies of Him.

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians 5:6-7

dcontroversal said:
Wrong.......do not conflate SONSHIP with FELLOWSHIP.......<----ONE is an irrevocable gift based upon grace/faith......the other is subject to walking in the light as he is in the light......

My son is a son by BIRTH....NOTHING will ever be able to change that fact, however, SOMETIMES my KID fires me up by not doing what I tell him to do...that temporarily breaks our fellowship, but he remains my SON BY BIRTH...

You guys conflate so many issues into a religious quagmire soup of error.....

 

[dcontroversal]

God is MY FATHER, I am God's son!!

Our Father who art in heaven... = God is our FATHER!!

I am able to go BOLDLY to the throne of MY FATHER!!

You go right ahead and just be a free loader by GRACE (what a lousy excuse)(like an alcoholic saying, it was just only 1 sip), I am a child of God and therefore am ACCOUNTABLE!!

Your reply is idiotic.....

dcontroversal said:
Wrong.......do not conflate SONSHIP with FELLOWSHIP.......<----ONE is an irrevocable gift based upon grace/faith......the other is subject to walking in the light as he is in the light......

My son is a son by BIRTH....NOTHING will ever be able to change that fact, however, SOMETIMES my KID fires me up by not doing what I tell him to do...that temporarily breaks our fellowship, but he remains my SON BY BIRTH...

You guys conflate so many issues into a religious quagmire soup of error.....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's not like a trade for trade, or working 10 hours per day sort of earning it I speak of. It's like your favorite hobby. I used to play 8/9-ball at the pool halls (billiards) because it's a skill between you and the cue, ball and pocket. I put a lot of effort into being able to see any angle off the bank or or regular shot trying move the cue ball into place for my next shot. When I chose to accept my upbringing (Grandfather and Father as ministers and in church till I could be as far AWAY as I could) and I renewed my walk in God, all of the effort and care I had for shooting pool now went into educating myself concerning God.

I care about my sins when I commit them. I care because I know this is not what God desires of me. So, my effort in general as a follower of God (not working by punching a time clock or I'll give you this for that) because I care is a lot of work and time devoted unto God. You really are not living for God until God consumes most of what you're doing because He desires to be involved in everything. So, you can be working your 9-5 job and still be praising Him while getting a paycheck!!

But basically, If you read the Bible enough to get involved into these discussions. It means, you are putting in effort to learn and be knowledgeable about God. This means you CARE!! This means you are setting time aside from others things to devote to God. It means in technical terms...Your effort, care, time, praying to know God and the scripture is a practical form of work. Because without setting aside, without caring, without giving up time, without praying, without studying, WITHOUT WORKING AND MAKING THE EFFORT, you will never know who God is!!

So please, do not misconstrue my meaning on the term earning or working for your salvation. Because if you do not give up who you used to be, you cannot become who God wants you to be. And that is time, effort, blood, sweat, tears, WORK!!

A true believer works at getting closer to God. A true believer is eating meat, not drinking the babies milk!!

You can spin it however you want.

If you are trying to maintain salvation by any kind of effort, you are trusting yourself, not God.

You need to become the tax collector. While I agree, not everyone who teaches works are boastful pharisees pumping their chest and praising God they are not like the sinner, anyone who does not get on their knees in total brokenness and calls out on the name of God to have mercy (Jesus called it bankrupsy, when he said blessed are the poor in spririt for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.). The word poor literally means to be bancrupt. Be totally destitute of all things, so broken you have to go get someone to pay the debt for you, because you can not pay it yourself.

The fact is, if you think you still have a part to pay, if you think you can still pay some of your debt, if you think God just pays his part but you also have to pay yours, you have not yet become poor in spirit. You still hold out hope in self that you have something in you to offer God that will cause him to continue to give you points towards earning your salvation. And as paul said in Gal 3, you have professed faith in a different gospel. And in biblical terms this is called human good, or self rghteousness.

It does not matter if you are like the jews and roman churches and think you have to do all these religious traditions and ceremonies and offer of penance or sacrifice, or if you just think you some how have to maintain your salvation by some belief system of your own power. And have to keep sanctifying yourself in order to maintain salvation. You are all in the same boat.

God says ALL sin seperates us from him, the evil dictator who killed millions will go to the same hell as the religious person who never commited any grave overt outward sins such as murder, or sexual perverion, never stole or lied, never outwardly dishonored their parents or but kept serving his or her religious duties and never hurt anyone.

God says in his word Christ perfected me forever, and he is in the continuing work of sanctifying me, It does not say he may have perfected me this and continue to sanctify me, or that I have to do something or he will stop. It says he has and is.

It also says he who began a good work WILL (not might) Continue to do that work until he returns (the day of christ)

Like I have said in all of the passages I have shown where I CLAIM the PROMISES OF GOD You either TRUST him to keep these promises, in hmility, knowing you CAN NEVER EARN THEM, As I said, a person who believes in eternal security is not believing in a doctrine, but a position, they claim the promises of God, and because of their trust in Gods promises, continue to believe in the one who saved them,

Or you lack faith in God in these area, thinking you must continue to earn or maitain them by your own power in what you do.

The choice is up to you

 

[Sketch]

But the above show's why you are in error, you believe context should not hold sway over an isolated text -- unless you need it to.

Show me where the context of Heb.6:4-6 nullifies what Heb.6:4-6 clearly says. You too @PennEd

Here is what I posted earlier. Refute this.

Hebrews 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Who is this scripture talking about?
- those who have once been enlightened
- those who have tasted the heavenly gift
- those who have shared in the Holy Spirit
- those who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age.
This is obviously speaking of the saved.

What is it saying about them?
- It is impossible for those (saved individuals) to be brought back to repentance.

Why is it impossible for them to be brought back to repentance?
- To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

What is the message?
This is a difficult passage, but it says what it says.
The most critical question in this scripture is defining what "fallen away" means.
Or more specifically, to what degree. In a sense, we fall away every time we sin.
But we know we have a remedy to restore fellowship through confession of sin and repentance.

So, the big question here is, to what degree can one fall away to which there is no remedy?
My answer is that, God only knows. It is in his hands, not ours to decide.
There is a line to cross, and we don't know where it is. Only God knows.
God's will is not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There isn't a scripture that I am aware of with the word apostate in it. The reference is to apostacy, falling away, or abandoning the faith.

1 Timothy 4:1
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

1 John 2 says those who fall away or abondon their faith (walk away and now reject christ) were never saved.

Why do people deny Johns words, is he not an apostle we should trust?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

John 1:12
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

1 Timothy 4:1
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

We see this happening today as churches are abondoning the faith and preaching deceiving spirit and all kinds of stuff in the name of Christ, it gets worse and worse every day, even maintstream churches are going to apostacy, that is what that passage is talking about. Not induvidual people who CLAIM to have had faith, then walk away in unbelief.

John makes it clear. THEY WERE NEVER OF US.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Where is the contradiction?

In the case of Apostacy, God may choose to revoke it.
We cannot undo what only God can do in the first place.

If God revokes it it his promises are baseless. Because he promised based on HIS work, not ours. And hs character is also at stake. He claims to know all. For him to be forced to revoke, means he did nto know all. He failed to know that person would continue..

God is not mocked..I suggest people stop trying to mock him in ubelief of who he is and what he promises

 

[dcontroversal]

You can spin it however you want.

If you are trying to maintain salvation by any kind of effort, you are trusting yourself, not God.

You need to become the tax collector. While I agree, not everyone who teaches works are boastful pharisees pumping their chest and praising God they are not like the sinner, anyone who does not get on their knees in total brokenness and calls out on the name of God to have mercy (Jesus called it bankrupsy, when he said blessed are the poor in spririt for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.). The word poor literally means to be bancrupt. Be totally destitute of all things, so broken you have to go get someone to pay the debt for you, because you can not pay it yourself.

The fact is, if you think you still have a part to pay, if you think you can still pay some of your debt, if you think God just pays his part but you also have to pay yours, you have not yet become poor in spirit. You still hold out hope in self that you have something in you to offer God that will cause him to continue to give you points towards earning your salvation. And as paul said in Gal 3, you have professed faith in a different gospel. And in biblical terms this is called human good, or self rghteousness.

It does not matter if you are like the jews and roman churches and think you have to do all these religious traditions and ceremonies and offer of penance or sacrifice, or if you just think you some how have to maintain your salvation by some belief system of your own power. And have to keep sanctifying yourself in order to maintain salvation. You are all in the same boat.

God says ALL sin seperates us from him, the evil dictator who killed millions will go to the same hell as the religious person who never commited any grave overt outward sins such as murder, or sexual perverion, never stole or lied, never outwardly dishonored their parents or but kept serving his or her religious duties and never hurt anyone.

God says in his word Christ perfected me forever, and he is in the continuing work of sanctifying me, It does not say he may have perfected me this and continue to sanctify me, or that I have to do something or he will stop. It says he has and is.

It also says he who began a good work WILL (not might) Continue to do that work until he returns (the day of christ)

Like I have said in all of the passages I have shown where I CLAIM the PROMISES OF GOD You either TRUST him to keep these promises, in hmility, knowing you CAN NEVER EARN THEM, As I said, a person who believes in eternal security is not believing in a doctrine, but a position, they claim the promises of God, and because of their trust in Gods promises, continue to believe in the one who saved them,

Or you lack faith in God in these area, thinking you must continue to earn or maitain them by your own power in what you do.

The choice is up to you

AMEN...........Cain thought his works would get him in as well............either one trusts Christ 100% or they don't.....end of story......a micro gram of I MUST to gain or maintain = no trust!

 

[Sketch]

1 John 2 says those who fall away or abondon their faith (walk away and now reject christ) were never saved.

Why do people deny Johns words, is he not an apostle we should trust?

This is a complicated subject.
We can't hang the whole thing on one verse. And then ask why people don't trust your favorite verse. (or Apostle in this case)

In some cases it is certainly true that those who we deem (get that "we" deem) to have fallen away were never saved in the first place.
But the truth is, we can't really say one way of the other. How are these things measured?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What do you make of this?

Hebrews 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

I make that the author is making a plee to jews tryign to return to law.

It is impossible for those who have come to christ, IF THEY FALL AWAY, to renew them (According to the law they could be renewed) As the verses following says, The earth brings rain. Yes, they may be near to being cursed because they become prodigals, tbut they are not cursed, as aul said in 1 cor. They will still be saved, even though as through fire.

 

[Hevosmies]

This is interesting.
I never encountered such hardline OSAS believers before.
To the point of even denying what the scriptures clearly teach.

You aint seen nothing yet! There are those who believe that sinner's prayer or calling out to the Lord is WORKS salvation. You heard me right.
I lie not i can provide the evidence if asked.

Some hyper-dispensationalists even say Romans 10:9 is NOT for christians but to jews. (Becuase of what Paul says in verse 1) and that the gospel for us today is in Romans 3:21-25. (Even 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is wrong according to some because it doesnt mention the blood of Jesus)

Its crazy all kinds of weird doctrines people come up with. I've seen and heard it all.

I bet soon its going to be just universalism. No belief, just exist and you're in!
Now dont get me wrong I would LOVE for universalism to be true, but the scriptures unfortunately dont witness to that.

 

[Sketch]

We see this happening today as churches are abondoning the faith and preaching deceiving spirit and all kinds of stuff in the name of Christ, it gets worse and worse every day, even maintstream churches are going to apostacy, that is what that passage is talking about. Not induvidual people who CLAIM to have had faith, then walk away in unbelief.

John makes it clear. THEY WERE NEVER OF US.

That's dangerous business, declaring whole churches or denominations to be our enemy.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is a complicated subject.

Not really

2 cor 11: 3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

People make it complicated when they make it complicated by their belief systems,

We can't hang the whole thing on one verse. And then ask why people don't trust your favorite verse. (or Apostle in this case)

In some cases it is certainly true that those who we deem (get that "we" deem) to have fallen away were never saved in the first place.
But the truth is, we can't really say one way of the other. How are these things measured?

An Apostle can not lie either. If An apostle says people who left the church and are now anti-christ (reject christ in unbelief) were never saved, they were never saved

Anther aostle can not say, well. John was wrong, he did not have the whole picture (john was there from the begining by the way) this is how it really is.

You use the scripture to interpret scripture. If your belief system makes two authors contradict each other, Or one author contradict himself in two different passages, Something is wrong with your interpretation. Study and find the belief which brings the two things in harmony, then you will find truth, Keep them apposed. And you will remain in a complicated mire which is not based in truth. And have fallen from the simplicity which is in christ.

 

[dcontroversal]

WHAT!!? Why would God revoke our Salvation, unless it is because of something WE did? P4T is right. This is nothing more than saying WE can do something to lose our Salvation, which at it's essence boils down to a works, or obedience for salvation doctrine.

AMEN......scripture does not contradict and now we see those saying that salvation can be revoked due to sin/apostasy.....

SO....the bible states that the gifts of God are IRREVOCABLE

Salvation is a GIFT so....

If one states that salvation is revocable---> the following must be true.

a. The bible is correct and salvation, which is a gift, is irrevocable
b. The poster claiming salvation can be revoked is wrong

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Just to be clear, I'm saying there is nothing WE can do to lose our salvation.
But in the case of apostacy, God may revoke it.

Hebrews 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Again, look at the old covenant,

One fell away because of sin, not apostacy, they had to be brough back by order of sacrifice, and the nation had to be brough back (restored) on the day of redemption by the high priest entering the holy of holys and offering the atoning sacrifice.

Hebrews is telling them those things never brought anyone back (the blood of bulls and goats never took away sin to bring anyone back)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We ALL sin!!

So, when you sin, do you ask our heavenly Father to forgive you?

If so, why when you claim there is no need for it.

And yes, the Blood of Yeshua cleanses our sins and purifies us to be in the presence of Almighty God. But we must confess our sins in order to be forgiven.

David in Psalms asked God to FORGIVE THE SINS that he was unaware of that he had committed...SURELY...we also have sins we are unaware of (specifically)...we have example after example of people asking God for forgiveness throughout the scriptures...So, why would we be able to just sin and not ask to be forgiven?

The term past, present, and future sins is vindicated on asking for forgiveness.

Are you claiming since God knows everything, He should just know to forgive your future sins because you claim His GRACE?

I confess my sins to god, because I need to. It is for my benefit not Gods, when I keep sins inside, and do nto confess them to God and others. I tend to keep commiting those sins, because I have n one to hold me accountable. And I would not do them in the first place if I did not enjoy them, or benefit from them.
We need to do it, to hold ourselves acountable

But God already forgave them, he paid for them 2000 years ago on calvary

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is proof then we should/must ask for forgiveness of our sins, in my opinion.

And this is proof your trying to earn salvation. Not recieve the gift of salvation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do you LOVE God?

Do you LOVE Jesus Christ our LORD?

If you do, OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS. john 14:15

Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to ENTER LIFE, obey the commandments.” Matthew 19:16-17

Are you TEACHING obedience to God?

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Matthew 28:18-20

Children of God
And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming. If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him. 1 John 2:28-29

The Children of the Devil
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, YOU WOULD LOVE ME, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”John 8:42-47

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did1 John 2:3-6

Are you IN Jesus and WALKING as He did?

And this is love: that we WALK in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

Those who do not obey God's commandments do not love God and are therefore not children of God but enemies of Him.

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians 5:6-7

We love becaus God loved us and gave himself for us.

Not because we have it in ourselves to love God,

We obey BECAUSE God loved and saved us, bnot in order to be loved and saved by God, you have the orders out of phase.