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KJV1611

KJV1611

Banned
#121
Nov 23, 2013
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#121
Deade said:
Nobody is going to heaven. Nobody is in heaven.

John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

Acts 2:29-35 "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool."

Heaven "The Kingdom of" is coming to earth. :cool:
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I see your point on both. But ascending to heaven in those verses is related to the ascending in Romans 10. "Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven?", meaning entering heaven through your own works of righteousness. Christ is the ONLY one who has ever ascended that way.

Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

Banned
#122
Nov 23, 2013
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#122
Macabeus said:
Thank you for your replies, which you obviously put thought into. I think the verse 27 indicates that the coming of the Son of Man will be widely visible, not seen merely in a local sense, as His resurrection was. Notice, it is contrasted to Him appearing in a desert or secret place, where only a few would see Him. The resurrection of certain saints at Christ's resurrection was seen by many in the Holy city, but would hardly fit the lightning shining from East to West.

All the tribes of the earth shall mourn at His coming when they see the sign of the Son of man. This passage seems to be what John was alluding to in Revelation when He said behold, He comes with clouds, and every eye shall see Him and will mourn because of Him. All of these verses seem to indicate a coming that is visible to all. The resurrection was not visible to all, nor did all tribes of the earth mourn when they saw it, nor did all the tribes of the earth see Him coming in power at that time.

More to follow
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Yeah it's a very highly complex and symbolic passage. It's understandable how people can see it in a multitude of different ways. I stick with the concrete verses in passages like this to keep me straight. To me, the two verses below are the concrete. No matter what a person considers a generation to be in Matthew 24:34, that generation can not go beyond 70 AD. That coupled with Jesus saying Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." nails down the time frame in my opinion.

Mat_24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mat_10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

I should also add that I'm not a preterist. I believe their will be a rapture and Christ will return to rule and reign a thousand years. I alsot believe that sometimes when the bible talks about the return of Christ, it's talking about his return from the grave.
 
Deade

Deade

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#123
Dec 17, 2017
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#123
KJV1611 said:
Yeah it's a very highly complex and symbolic passage. It's understandable how people can see it in a multitude of different ways. I stick with the concrete verses in passages like this to keep me straight. To me, the two verses below are the concrete. No matter what a person considers a generation to be in Matthew 24:34, that generation can not go beyond 70 AD. That coupled with Jesus saying Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." nails down the time frame in my opinion.

Mat_24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mat_10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

I should also add that I'm not a preterist. I believe their will be a rapture and Christ will return to rule and reign a thousand years. I alsot believe that sometimes when the bible talks about the return of Christ, it's talking about his return from the grave.
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But you are what they call a partial preterist. You view so many prophecies as having already happened. That has stopped you from viewing how all the gospels fit together into one picture. Returning from the grave is called resurrection, not return. :cool:
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

Banned
#124
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
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#124
Deade said:
But you are what they call a partial preterist. You view so many prophecies as having already happened. That has stopped you from viewing how all the gospels fit together into one picture. Returning from the grave is called resurrection, not return. :cool:
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In this verse what does Jesus mean when he says "til the Son of man be come"? Come from where?

Mat_10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
 
Deade

Deade

Called of God
#125
Dec 17, 2017
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#125
KJV1611 said:
In this verse what does Jesus mean when he says "til the Son of man be come"? Come from where?

Mat_10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
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Israel is not what you think it is. :cool:
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#126
Dec 27, 2018
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#126
Hevosmies said:
We are entering the twilight zone of theology here.

Oy vey!

As much as I love you guys, come on now, here is my alternative KJV1611 interpretation to Matthew 24:29-31:


Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
I believe the sun is the sun, the moon is the moon, the stars are the stars. Cosmic disturbances ahead!

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
I dont know what the specific sign is, but I know everyone will see it, as it says here and in Rev 1:7.
I believe the clouds represent....... clouds. Jesus returns in a same way as He went up on the mount of olives in Acts 1:11

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
I believe the angels are angels, the trumpet is a trumpet with a great sound, which will be sounded. I believe the gathering of the elect refers to those who survived the tribulation alive and are gathered to Jerusalem.


Simple enough!
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Everything you said is basically what I believe, but we may differ on where the harpazo of 1 thess. 4 fits in that. I'm not sure what you hold on that, but otherwise I generally agree with your interpretation.
 
GraceAndTruth

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
#128
Sep 28, 2015
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#128
iamsoandso said:
"JEWISH REVOLT" cannot equal "WORSHIP IMAGE OF ROME",,,,if they revolted at all they did not worship Caesar or it's image and receive it's mark they refused it. "Things that are different cannot be the same"...
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I don't think you even read my posts because yours to me make no sense.

Of course there was a Jewish revolt, that is what brought the Roman army down on them to put a stop to the revolt once and for all & to destroy their temple. The Jews revolt was two-fold: 1 to be rid of Roman rule and 2. refusal to worship the CAESARS as god (which Caesar demanded)

Told you before, the "mark" is symbolic, not literal.
I'm not repeating myself on this 20 times......not even once more.
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#129
Dec 27, 2018
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876
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#129
KJV1611 said:
In this verse what does Jesus mean when he says "til the Son of man be come"? Come from where?

Mat_10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
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That is a very good question. Obviously, there is more than one way " Son of Man comes" is used just as you said. Context determines meaning in such cases. The context you are quoting from is very different from the context of Matthew 24. In the passage you are quoting, Jesus could be referring to the Mount of Transfiguration, the resurrection, or even the Ascension ( I suppose), but none of these fits the context of Matthew 24. Matthew 24 is clearly speaking of a coming visible to all, a coming in judgment and a gathering, and a coming in power the one you are quoting doesn't mention any of these
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#130
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
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#130
KJV1611 said:
I see your point on both. But ascending to heaven in those verses is related to the ascending in Romans 10. "Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven?", meaning entering heaven through your own works of righteousness. Christ is the ONLY one who has ever ascended that way.

Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
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....and no one had ascended as Jesus ascended (in a resurrected body)...yet...
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#131
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#131
KJV1611 said:
Yeah it's a very highly complex and symbolic passage. It's understandable how people can see it in a multitude of different ways. I stick with the concrete verses in passages like this to keep me straight. To me, the two verses below are the concrete. No matter what a person considers a generation to be in Matthew 24:34, that generation can not go beyond 70 AD. That coupled with Jesus saying Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." nails down the time frame in my opinion.

Mat_24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mat_10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

I should also add that I'm not a preterist. I believe their will be a rapture and Christ will return to rule and reign a thousand years. I alsot believe that sometimes when the bible talks about the return of Christ, it's talking about his return from the grave.
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Could it be this generation, ie the one who sees all of these things come to pass?

Agree with you on the rest of your post.

Blessings
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#132
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#132
KJV1611 said:
I see your point on both. But ascending to heaven in those verses is related to the ascending in Romans 10. "Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven?", meaning entering heaven through your own works of righteousness. Christ is the ONLY one who has ever ascended that way.

Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
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BTW, your answer regarding Romans 10 was spot on.
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

Banned
#133
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
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#133
Macabeus said:
That is a very good question. Obviously, there is more than one way " Son of Man comes" is used just as you said. Context determines meaning in such cases. The context you are quoting from is very different from the context of Matthew 24. In the passage you are quoting, Jesus could be referring to the Mount of Transfiguration, the resurrection, or even the Ascension ( I suppose), but none of these fits the context of Matthew 24. Matthew 24 is clearly speaking of a coming that is visible to all, a coming of judgement, a gathering, and a coming in power the one you are quoting doesn't mention any of these
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Yes the point I was trying to make was that all mentions of Jesus coming or returning aren't always talking about the second advent. I disagree with you on the context of Matthew 10 and 24 because I think the persecution in Matthew 10 is the same as the persecution in Matthew 24, but we can agree to disagree on that.

Moving on to Matthew 24. Verse 34 is very clear that all the things in that chapter would happen before that generation passed. So in my opinion, the coming of the Son of man in Matthew 24:37 is talking about him coming back at the resurrection.
 
Deade

Deade

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#134
Dec 17, 2017
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#134
KJV1611 said:
Can you explain what the CITIES of Israel are.
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The Assyrians captured, and carried away, the ten northern tribes of Israel in 721 B.C. Today, the modern established nation of Israel, in the Middle East, does not have a right to that name; and they know it.

They should call themselves Judah——because that is who they are. I guess they figure that the real Israel has been gone so long, the name was up for grabs. I believe that the god of this world, Satan, has caused this to confuse people about prophecy. To see who really has the rights, to the name Israel, we have to go all the way back to Genesis. Jacob, renamed Israel by God, was blessing Joseph’s sons (Gen. 48:16). He gave Joseph's sons the rights to that name.

He spoke to Israel separately from Judah, just as He intended. God knows what He is doing. Jesus knew this and was not referring to Judah. :cool:
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#135
Dec 27, 2018
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#135
KJV1611 said:
Yes the point I was trying to make was that all mentions of Jesus coming or returning aren't always talking about the second advent. I disagree with you on the context of Matthew 10 and 24 because I think the persecution in Matthew 10 is the same as the persecution in Matthew 24, but we can agree to disagree on that.

Moving on to Matthew 24. Verse 34 is very clear that all the things in that chapter would happen before that generation passed. So in my opinion, the coming of the Son of man in Matthew 24:37 is talking about him coming back at the resurrection.
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The coming in verse 37 is the same coming in verses 29-31, and I already stated why I don't think these fit the resurrection. We can just agree to disagree on this as you said. Blessings, brother
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

Banned
#136
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
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#136
Deade said:
The Assyrians captured, and carried away, the ten northern tribes of Israel in 721 B.C. Today, the modern established nation of Israel, in the Middle East, does not have a right to that name; and they know it.

They should call themselves Judah——because that is who they are. I guess they figure that the real Israel has been gone so long, the name was up for grabs. I believe that the god of this world, Satan, has caused this to confuse people about prophecy. To see who really has the rights, to the name Israel, we have to go all the way back to Genesis. Jacob, renamed Israel by God, was blessing Joseph’s sons (Gen. 48:16). He gave Joseph's sons the rights to that name.

He spoke to Israel separately from Judah, just as He intended. God knows what He is doing. Jesus knew this and was not referring to Judah. :cool:
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Ok but what does that have to do with the 12 disciples spreading the gospel to all the cities in Israel during the time of Christ?
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

Banned
#137
Nov 23, 2013
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#137
Macabeus said:
The coming in verse 37 is the same coming in verses 29-31, and I already stated why I don't think these fit the resurrection. We can just agree to disagree on this as you said. Blessings, brother
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Just for curiosity's sake, how do you put any of Matthew 24 outside of "that generation"?
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#138
Dec 27, 2018
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#138
KJV1611 said:
Just for curiosity's sake, how do you put any of Matthew 24 outside of "that generation"?
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The generation could be interpreted as those who "see these things" mentioned earlier, (see preceding verses). One possible way of interpreting it, but I'm always open to correction if I see otherwise in God's Word
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

Banned
#139
Nov 23, 2013
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#139
I would like to see you guys view on Matthew 24:27-28.

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Apparently the Son of man comes to where the carcase is. Thoughts? To me it sounds like the scene at the resurrection.
 
Deade

Deade

Called of God
#140
Dec 17, 2017
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#140
KJV1611 said:
Ok but what does that have to do with the 12 disciples spreading the gospel to all the cities in Israel during the time of Christ?
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John 17:20 "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;"

KJV1611 said:
Just for curiosity's sake, how do you put any of Matthew 24 outside of "that generation"?
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The Lesson of the Fig Tree​

Matt. 24:32, 33 "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." That is the generation that will see the end of the age. :cool:
 
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