Does God want us to choose between law and grace?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
113
Is he still talking?

And still will not let us know where he attends services? Whats he hiding?
Careful.

Direct questions apparently are to be avoided at ALL costs.

I've been trying to get him to say but so far I've been stonewalled.

He's really brilliant in the avoidance and change the subject routine. I think he's got me just where he wants me. Soon I will be part of the Borg.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Careful.

Direct questions apparently are to be avoided at ALL costs.

I've been trying to get him to say but so far I've been stonewalled.

He's really brilliant in the avoidance and change the subject routine. I think he's got me just where he wants me. Soon I will be part of the Borg.
Resistance is futile!
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,217
1,980
113
A bit ago, I was trying to find a post I'd made some days ago... I'm thinking it MAY have been in this thread...

And so I just a few minutes ago made a post in a separate thread (so many of these look so much alike to me :D that it's hard to find things when I need them! LOL)… here's a small part of that post I just made (but I think this part fits here in this thread just as well):

[quoting that portion of my Post #270 in a different thread]

...before I would get into any passages you may be specifically referring to (Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-28; Hebrews 8, 10; Jeremiah 31:33-34; Romans 8:4's "that the righteousness OF the law might be fulfilled IN us [not BY us]..."; Galatians 5:23b ["against such there is no law"]; etc...), please read the following (and I will try to get back to this thread later this evening, when I get some time freed up :) ) :


"The Two Husbands of Romans 7" by Charles Stanley (1821-1890) [not the one today in Atlanta, Georgia :) , just to be clear]

https://bibletruthpublishers.com/th...e-two-husbands-of-romans-7/c-stanley/la130493


[with minor caveats or, rather, certain clarifications...]

[end quoting that post]
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
113
A bit ago, I was trying to find a post I'd made some days ago... I'm thinking it MAY have been in this thread...

And so I just a few minutes ago made a post in a separate thread (so many of these look so much alike to me :D that it's hard to find things when I need them! LOL)… here's a small part of that post I just made (but I think this part fits here in this thread just as well):

[quoting that portion of my Post #270 in a different thread]

...before I would get into any passages you may be specifically referring to (Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-28; Hebrews 8, 10; Jeremiah 31:33-34; Romans 8:4's "that the righteousness OF the law might be fulfilled IN us [not BY us]..."; Galatians 5:23b ["against such there is no law"]; etc...), please read the following (and I will try to get back to this thread later this evening, when I get some time freed up :) ) :


"The Two Husbands of Romans 7" by Charles Stanley (1821-1890) [not the one today in Atlanta, Georgia :) , just to be clear]

https://bibletruthpublishers.com/th...e-two-husbands-of-romans-7/c-stanley/la130493


[with minor caveats or, rather, certain clarifications...]

[end quoting that post]
I was starting to think maybe no one really understood.

But I can see even Christians from the 1800's have to explain the same old thing to the same types of people.
 
T

Tim416

Guest
A bit ago, I was trying to find a post I'd made some days ago... I'm thinking it MAY have been in this thread...

And so I just a few minutes ago made a post in a separate thread (so many of these look so much alike to me :D that it's hard to find things when I need them! LOL)… here's a small part of that post I just made (but I think this part fits here in this thread just as well):

[quoting that portion of my Post #270 in a different thread]

...before I would get into any passages you may be specifically referring to (Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-28; Hebrews 8, 10; Jeremiah 31:33-34; Romans 8:4's "that the righteousness OF the law might be fulfilled IN us [not BY us]..."; Galatians 5:23b ["against such there is no law"]; etc...), please read the following (and I will try to get back to this thread later this evening, when I get some time freed up :) ) :


"The Two Husbands of Romans 7" by Charles Stanley (1821-1890) [not the one today in Atlanta, Georgia :) , just to be clear]

https://bibletruthpublishers.com/th...e-two-husbands-of-romans-7/c-stanley/la130493


[with minor caveats or, rather, certain clarifications...]

[end quoting that post]
Too much to read, however, I was pleased the writer stated Rom7:14-24 referred to Saul the Pharisee and not Paul the Christian, spot on there!
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
113
Its obviously a very important point of contention on what is written in the Christians Heart and Mind.

If it is the 10 commandments, as some peoples children like to preach, then most of what Paul teaches makes no sense.

How can we have rest if the 10 commandments are written on our hearts? DO you tell the Lord Jesus "Not So"??

How can we be dead to the law so that we can be alive to God if what we are dead to is in our hearts and minds??? None of this makes any sense because it is plainly NOT true. The 10 commandments are NOT written in the hearts and minds of the Christian.

What IS written on our hearts is the Ministration of Righteousness. It is the Ministration of the Spirit of God that is on our hearts and minds now.

Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Romans 7:5-6
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

2 Corinthians 3:7-8
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


I don't know how to make it more obvious. Its in every epistle Paul wrote. Defining what Christianity is and what it isn't.
 
T

Tim416

Guest
A bit ago, I was trying to find a post I'd made some days ago... I'm thinking it MAY have been in this thread...

And so I just a few minutes ago made a post in a separate thread (so many of these look so much alike to me :D that it's hard to find things when I need them! LOL)… here's a small part of that post I just made (but I think this part fits here in this thread just as well):

[quoting that portion of my Post #270 in a different thread]

...before I would get into any passages you may be specifically referring to (Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-28; Hebrews 8, 10; Jeremiah 31:33-34; Romans 8:4's "that the righteousness OF the law might be fulfilled IN us [not BY us]..."; Galatians 5:23b ["against such there is no law"]; etc...), please read the following (and I will try to get back to this thread later this evening, when I get some time freed up :) ) :


"The Two Husbands of Romans 7" by Charles Stanley (1821-1890) [not the one today in Atlanta, Georgia :) , just to be clear]

https://bibletruthpublishers.com/th...e-two-husbands-of-romans-7/c-stanley/la130493


[with minor caveats or, rather, certain clarifications...]

[end quoting that post]
As this subject obviously interests you, it would be nice to further explore it.
If I said to you: If you think of a pink rabbit God will condemn you to hell, what is the first thought that would enter your head if you believed me? We both know the answer to that don't we. It would not be long, before you would be swamped by thoughts of the creature. But why? What specifically in my statement would make you end up consumed by thoughts of the creature?
A businessman used to dread leaving his family to go on business trips, for every time he did so, he watched porn on his laptop. Then one day, he joined a church where it was preached that Jesus died for all a believers sins, past, present and future. The man accepted this as the truth. A short while later he was completely delivered from watching porn on his laptop. So what had brought this transformation about? Had the man changed his view watching porn/coveting was wrong. No, he would not have done that. Did he in his heart change his mind about not wanting to watch porn/covet? No, that would not have changed either. What changed was, he believed he was no longer under the condemnation of the law. His sin could not condemn him. For he believed Jesus died for all his sins past, present and future.
I don't know(as I did not read it all) if the man you asked me to read of believed the law had to be abolished in order for believers not to be under its condemnation. If he did believe that, he was wrong.
God did not have to abolish what is holy, just and good in order for man not to be under its condemnation. He had to send Jesus to die for all believers sins, past, present and future, Jesus died for all believers transgressions of the law/sins/law that is holy just and good. By doing so, no believer is under the law of sin and death, the condemnation of the law, or the schoolmaster.
Many do not realise this, they believe God had to abolish what was holy just and good in order to end mans condemnation under it. But God's ways are much higher than the mind of man:

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.’[b]

17 Then he adds:

Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.
Heb10:16&17
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
1,364
652
113
This discussion seems very simple at its core. It seems to be the role of the Law after the cross.

The arguments seem to imply that correct “knowledge “ of its role is the key to maturity. I would not disagree, and it seems the debate hinges on “our” knowledge being the key to empower growth. Again I won’t disagree, but if it’s simply correct knowledge or theology, where does the Holy Spirit come in? (Asking for a friend)
 
T

Tim416

Guest
This discussion seems very simple at its core. It seems to be the role of the Law after the cross.

The arguments seem to imply that correct “knowledge “ of its role is the key to maturity. I would not disagree, and it seems the debate hinges on “our” knowledge being the key to empower growth. Again I won’t disagree, but if it’s simply correct knowledge or theology, where does the Holy Spirit come in? (Asking for a friend)
Would the Holy Spirit want people to understand the truth? Did the law, what is holy, just and good have to be abolished for man not to be under its condemnation, or, did Jesus die for all your sins, past, present and future in order to end condemnation under the law?

As believers are convicted of sin if they bear false witness, covet, steal, commit adfultery the answer is obvious, unless you are only driven by trying to win an argument.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
41,320
16,306
113
69
Tennessee
You don't really chose grace but rather God choses to grant you grace. Without the law there would be no knowledge of sin and salvation would not be possible. It would be best to simply trust in the Lord for your salvation and rather on focusing on obeying the law (10 Commandments) focus instead on being a humble servant to the Lord. The same is true for works as well. It states in the bible that faith without works is a dead faith. Any works faithfully performed are a manifestation of the salvation that comes from contritely confessing your failure to live your life in a way pleasing to the Lord by acts of sin and omission, trusting in the shed blood of Jesus dying on the cross for the remission of sin, and allowing the Holy Spirit to comfort and guide in the life-long process of repentance. Grace is an unmerited favor from a God that loves us.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
You don't really chose grace but rather God choses to grant you grace. Without the law there would be no knowledge of sin and salvation would not be possible. It would be best to simply trust in the Lord for your salvation and rather on focusing on obeying the law (10 Commandments) focus instead on being a humble servant to the Lord. The same is true for works as well. It states in the bible that faith without works is a dead faith. Any works faithfully performed are a manifestation of the salvation that comes from contritely confessing your failure to live your life in a way pleasing to the Lord by acts of sin and omission, trusting in the shed blood of Jesus dying on the cross for the remission of sin, and allowing the Holy Spirit to comfort and guide in the life-long process of repentance. Grace is an unmerited favor from a God that loves us.
As jesus said, love is what we should focus on, anything not done in love is sin, lack of love will eventually lead to disobedience of the commands

And as paulmsaid, seek after things of the spirit. Ie, do not seek to serve self, but others,

Focusing on the law always has us focused on self, because we have to continually focus on whether we are sinning or not, this takes our focus off others. Which in itself is sin, which is what paul made the comment that sin increases. It does not decrease,
 
T

Tim416

Guest
This discussion seems very simple at its core. It seems to be the role of the Law after the cross.
My apologies for not addressing the question previoiusly, I was in a rush and had to go out


This is the foundation upon which the new covenant stands:





This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.’[b]


17 Then he adds:


‘Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.’





What does the above say to you? It says to me God, through the Holy Spirit, upon accepting Christ as your saviour places the law in your heart and mind he desires you to follow. Under the old covenant it was an external written down law. A written down law does not mean you in your heart want to follow it does it. The Israelites under the old covenant proved that time and time again. There are written down laws made by my government I disagree with due to my Christian beliefs. But what is in your heart you in your heart want to follow, so under the new covenant, in a nutshell God places the desire within you to livew as he would have you live. Because, and only because that is what you want, you have a saviour from sin, Jesus died for all your sins, past, present and future, your sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more. So it is a two part covenant isn’t it. And when you think about it, if the covenant only hinged on Jesus dying to give you righteousness apart from obeying the law, you would have a licence to sin, this way you do not.


God will accept you, even when you are dead in transgression/sin, for by grace you have been saved(Eph2:5) You stand before him righteous in his sight for Christ died for you. Then the sanctification process begins. You are a work in progress your whole life, and God will bring to your attention and deal with the things one by one, obviously in order of importance to him. During this work in progress you obviously will commit sin/be imperfect in your flesh, but as long as you are following after the Holy Spirit in the work of progress you will not be happy about your imperfections, but at the same time you c an rejoi ce that you are spotless in God’s sight, covered by his sons sacrifice for you. What peace, happiness and joy you have. No more guilt or condemnation. You are following a path that will bring you to live evermore according to the law in your heart. You do not look to that law and strive to obey it in order to live as God wants you to live, you look to Christ, trust him and rely on the Spirit to continually bring you to live an ever holier life.


So far everythings great isn’t it? But then, the Apostles, including Paul also gave warnings, it wasn’t just a nice cosy message full stop! Neither should it be for anyone aspiring to follow what they wrote.


If you are led by the Spirit you are not under law Gal5:18


You can step outside of that work in progress. You can follow the flesh rather than the Spirit, and in truth, all Christians do that at times. Suppose you met someone one night who you found extremely attractive, and slept with them. Can you now say? ‘’Everythings cool, Jesus died for all my sins, no problem’’ No you cannot. If you could do that, you were never born again in the first place, and the law is not in your heart. For you have now gone against how you in your mind know you should live and how you in your heart want to live. And you will be struck with remorse. And you will have no rest and no peace until you come before your Father in heaven and tell him you are sorry for how you acted. Only then will you get your peace back. You do not tell God you are sorry for you fear being cast into hell if you do not, but as you would say sorry to any loved one you grieve, so you tell your Father in heaven you are sorry for how you acted also.


Then youi get straight back to being a work in progress. What if you don’t? What if you continue to sleep with the woman? The law in your heart is going to give you no rest, no peace, and you will live a very miserable life until you come to your senses and get back on the path you should be on. God made a full proof covenant. No Christian can happily sin as much as they like under grace. It is impossible. The law in your heart cuts out a licence to sin
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,217
1,980
113
The law in your heart is going to give you no rest, no peace, and you will live a very miserable life until you come to your senses and get back on the path you should be on
And in some cases, it is an external person God uses to whack such individual upside the head lest he continue in his "desires" ever so long and unabated...
 
T

Tim416

Guest
And in some cases, it is an external person God uses to whack such individual upside the head lest he continue in his "desires" ever so long and unabated...
I read a bit more of what that man wrote. He did indeed seem to believe the law had to be abolished in order not to be under the condemnation of it. Its strange he spent so much time studying the bible, without it seems understanding there was another way
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,217
1,980
113
I read a bit more of what that man wrote. He did indeed seem to believe the law had to be abolished in order not to be under the condemnation of it. Its strange he spent so much time studying the bible, without it seems understanding there was another way
I can't remember if it was in that article or another one that I did not post, that [the writer] covers the CONTEXT OF the passage in Hebrews 10 that you keep bringing up.

My initial thought is that you haven't grasped what this writer (of this article) is saying about [your point in quote above]... Not sure.


For one thing... in the Rom7 passage, it is "you" (not the law)… and it is addressed to "you which know the law" (in that passage)
 
T

Tim416

Guest
So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

The law and sin
7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, ‘You shall not covet.’[b] 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.


13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognised as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

Believers die to the law, the law as we all understand law to mean. The legally active law that has a penalty for transgression that can condemn. It is this condemnation that is the true power of sin(back to the pink rabbit example) Believers die to this. They die to sinfull passions being aroused in them by the law, living free from its condemnation, for Jesus died for ALL their transgressions of the law, they are free. Saul the Pharisee, in versers 7-11 lived under the law of sin and death. He was the most ardent of Pharisees, obey the law or be condemned. Because he did so, all manner of coveting was aroused in him through the commandment: Thou shalt not covet.
No ministry of death and condemnation for those who know Jesus died for all their sins, that's gone, that has been abolished! The Christian is not under law, for to be under the law is to be under the condemnation of it. You cannot be under the condemnation of the law if Jesus died to pay for your transgressions of it/sin in full
I have chatted to sda members. They can constantly reel off the select letter of scripture, but struggle to understand the message that letter contains, as did the Pharisees of Jesus day. They too could recite the letter off pat, but did not understand ther message it contained, though they saw themselves as the elite as it were of understanding
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,217
1,980
113
… and Hebrews 10 starting out with...

"1 For the Law, having a shadow of the good things coming, not the form of the things themselves, never is able each year, with the same sacrifices which they offer continually, to perfect those drawing near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased being offered, because of those serving having been cleansed once, no longer having conscience of sins?

3 But in these, there is a reminder of sins every year."


...and then verses 14-15 say...

"14 For by one offering, He has perfected for all time those being sanctified.

15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us..."
 
T

Tim416

Guest
I can't remember if it was in that article or another one that I did not post, that [the writer] covers the CONTEXT OF the passage in Hebrews 10 that you keep bringing up.

My initial thought is that you haven't grasped what this writer (of this article) is saying about [your point in quote above]... Not sure.


For one thing... in the Rom7 passage, it is "you" (not the law)… and it is addressed to "you which know the law" (in that passage)
I think I understood, in order not to be iunder the law the law had to be abolished. If he got that wrong, his context of heb 10 would also be wrong I imagine.

Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness/justification for everyone who believeth Rom10:4

Of course, sda members love to run to the greek and claim Paul meant Christ is the goal of the law. You only have to read other writings of Paul to know the KJV is accurate. But one thing you can always rely on with the scholarly is, they will find any translation/ancient manuscripts if necessary to try and prove themselves right. Paul states:
But NOW a righteousness aspart from the law has been made known…. Rom3:21, which confirms Rom10:4
But it seems to me, many are only concerned with one thing(I do not mean you)
Thou shalt not admit to error
 
T

Tim416

Guest
… and Hebrews 10 starting out with...

"1 For the Law, having a shadow of the good things coming, not the form of the things themselves, never is able each year, with the same sacrifices which they offer continually, to perfect those drawing near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased being offered, because of those serving having been cleansed once, no longer having conscience of sins?

3 But in these, there is a reminder of sins every year."


...and then verses 14-15 say...

"14 For by one offering, He has perfected for all time those being sanctified.

15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us..."
Of course Jesus sacrifice made perfect forever believers. For he died for all their imperfections, the lot