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I
I will not debate this as most will never change their view.
I just wish that we stop complicating what God is. We ignore the very basic statement that Jesus said; that God is a Spirit. Jesus is the Word made flesh. Before this you would believe that there were at least two beings, one the Father, and the other His Word? Are we made from this image, or does our word proceed from our bosom as well? God said He was alone. Why then complicate that into three?
C
yes friend but He became three for us. Jesus was to do everything to bring us to God by being a human, He needed to have a body to be down here. And if you ask why could He just come down by himself, because then there would be no one to judge that He is not God because they would have seen Him in the first form and repented.
Shalom
Shalom
C
(this is my opinion) Think of Water. Water is H2o....right? So then when it is cold, water needs to be in a form to survive the cold which is "Ice". Is not Ice still H2o but in a different form? Now think about steam, It has a environment that it exists in, like heat. Is not the steam still H2o but in a different form? is not all the forms still h2o but in transformation to exist in a certain place? Water cannot be wiggly or liquid like in the cold, for if it did then it is not acting like the environment and is strange!!! but if God became man like us to explain and die for us then He needs a human body....for God was the Holy Spirit inside mary and over took her and a son was born which was God put in a females womb and having the body.
Like when Jesus said "My God My God why has thou forsaken me", what it is meaning that when all sins came unto Jesus (human body) then God abandoned Him. For God does not look a pond sin and looks the other way, so then that means when Jesus held our sin, He left the Human body to be abandoned but then later He conquered it being resurrected by the Father who is Christ.
Shalom
Like when Jesus said "My God My God why has thou forsaken me", what it is meaning that when all sins came unto Jesus (human body) then God abandoned Him. For God does not look a pond sin and looks the other way, so then that means when Jesus held our sin, He left the Human body to be abandoned but then later He conquered it being resurrected by the Father who is Christ.
Shalom
I
Revelation 1:1
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
See, friend. Protocol does not change with the operation of God. God, the Father gave unto Jesus. How can we believe that the Father told Jesus, He then told His angel, while all three are standing side by side? This cannot be. The Father is invisible, undilluted Spirit. He is the Mind of Christ. It wasn't revealed to Jesus because the mind of the Father had not gave it to Him yet. Once revealed, Jesus who speaks the Word of God then gives it to an angel who then passes it on to us.
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
See, friend. Protocol does not change with the operation of God. God, the Father gave unto Jesus. How can we believe that the Father told Jesus, He then told His angel, while all three are standing side by side? This cannot be. The Father is invisible, undilluted Spirit. He is the Mind of Christ. It wasn't revealed to Jesus because the mind of the Father had not gave it to Him yet. Once revealed, Jesus who speaks the Word of God then gives it to an angel who then passes it on to us.
When Jesus said My God why have you forsaken Me,God did not forsake Him,for Jesus said,the Father will never leave Me,but when the sins were placed on the man Christ Jesus He felt what it was like to be separated from God,but God never left Him.
It is the same God that created all things,manifested all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,and dwells in the saints,which is all done by His Spirit.It does not mean different forms,but the Spirit created all things,the man Christ Jesus was begotten by the Holy Spirit,and the Spirit dwells in the saints.
God has no distinction of persons.
I can have a child,save that child from a raging river,and donate blood to him,but I am still one person.
It doesn't take 3 persons in one God to create all things,manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,and dwell in the saints.
God said there was no God formed before Him and there will be no God formed after Him(Isaiah 43:10-11),and God said He searched the universe and cannot find another God(Isaiah 44:8).
If let us make man in our image is the Father,Son,and Holy Spirit,then how are we made in the image of all 3 persons.
If the Son is in the express image of God and was conceived of the Holy Spirit,then how are we made in the image of all 3 persons.
If the Son came in flesh,where people think that the Father and Spirit do not have flesh,then how are we made in the image of all 3.
The Bible says Adam was made in the image of Christ.The image of God is the image of Christ.
If the Son came in flesh,and the image of God is the image of Christ,and only the Son came in the flesh,so we would be made in the image of the Son,then how are we made in the image of all 3.
If the Son came in flesh,then why does the Bible say that the Son was conceived by the Holy Spirit.
If the Son has no beginning then why is He called the Son,when Son means to come after the Father.
How is the Son called the everlasting Father.
It is the same God that created all things,manifested all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,and dwells in the saints,which is all done by His Spirit.It does not mean different forms,but the Spirit created all things,the man Christ Jesus was begotten by the Holy Spirit,and the Spirit dwells in the saints.
God has no distinction of persons.
I can have a child,save that child from a raging river,and donate blood to him,but I am still one person.
It doesn't take 3 persons in one God to create all things,manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,and dwell in the saints.
God said there was no God formed before Him and there will be no God formed after Him(Isaiah 43:10-11),and God said He searched the universe and cannot find another God(Isaiah 44:8).
If let us make man in our image is the Father,Son,and Holy Spirit,then how are we made in the image of all 3 persons.
If the Son is in the express image of God and was conceived of the Holy Spirit,then how are we made in the image of all 3 persons.
If the Son came in flesh,where people think that the Father and Spirit do not have flesh,then how are we made in the image of all 3.
The Bible says Adam was made in the image of Christ.The image of God is the image of Christ.
If the Son came in flesh,and the image of God is the image of Christ,and only the Son came in the flesh,so we would be made in the image of the Son,then how are we made in the image of all 3.
If the Son came in flesh,then why does the Bible say that the Son was conceived by the Holy Spirit.
If the Son has no beginning then why is He called the Son,when Son means to come after the Father.
How is the Son called the everlasting Father.
O
In John 14:15,23 Jesus says if a man love me he will obey my Words then in mark 12:28-34 Jesus Hiimself tells us the most important commandment of all is Hear oh Israel the Lord our God is ONE LORD. and that we have to love Him with all we have and are.From here lets go to Psm. 35:23,24 David calls Him both Lord and God now forward to John 20:24-31 Thomas calls Jesus both Lord and God.. Now if Jesus is not God He would have admonished him on the spot!! Verse 29 applies to us all today!!Here are several verses to look up on your own.. Remember 2Tim 3:16... ALL Scripture......
Psm. 45:6 ; Heb. 1:8 ; Luke 7:18-22 ; Deut. 6:4 ; Is. 35:4-6 ; Is. 7:14 ; 2Sam. 7:22 ; 1Chron. 17:20 ; Matt. 12:30 ; John 10:30 ; John 14:6 ; 1John 2:22-24 ; 1John 3:1 ; 1Timothy 3:16.. no controversy ;
Now go to Rev. 21:22-27 and Rev. 22:1-5Notice ONE throne and all the HES and Hims and No Thems all singular
Here are some verses where Jesus was worshipped and did not admonish once!! MT. 28:9 ; LK. 24:52 ; MT. 15:23 ; MT. 28:17 ; MK. 5:6 ; in Luke %:20,21 Jesus forgives sin ... Only God can do that
There have been ppl. trying to part way copy God and always fail.. EX. 7:10,11 Arrons rod becomes serpant well then the magicians and sorcerers did the same it would appear but the Truth swallowed the false doctrinde up.. see 2Tim 3:1-17
Be lifted up in Gods name.. JESUS !!!!!!!
Psm. 45:6 ; Heb. 1:8 ; Luke 7:18-22 ; Deut. 6:4 ; Is. 35:4-6 ; Is. 7:14 ; 2Sam. 7:22 ; 1Chron. 17:20 ; Matt. 12:30 ; John 10:30 ; John 14:6 ; 1John 2:22-24 ; 1John 3:1 ; 1Timothy 3:16.. no controversy ;
Now go to Rev. 21:22-27 and Rev. 22:1-5Notice ONE throne and all the HES and Hims and No Thems all singular
Here are some verses where Jesus was worshipped and did not admonish once!! MT. 28:9 ; LK. 24:52 ; MT. 15:23 ; MT. 28:17 ; MK. 5:6 ; in Luke %:20,21 Jesus forgives sin ... Only God can do that
There have been ppl. trying to part way copy God and always fail.. EX. 7:10,11 Arrons rod becomes serpant well then the magicians and sorcerers did the same it would appear but the Truth swallowed the false doctrinde up.. see 2Tim 3:1-17
Be lifted up in Gods name.. JESUS !!!!!!!
C
No friend people still do not get it, there is not three Gods but became in three separate. Ok when Jesus was here the Father as well. He becomes one person for each form not multiples well that could work too. like when it says one throne it is meaning God's throne which is Jesus throne and the Holy Spirits throne which would mean they are one person in three. Pretty much the names like Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit, they may have many names but those names go to one person God.
(again this is my opinion) Father is another name for Jesus, and Jesus is another name for Holy Spirit that is why it says one throne because God is the only one sitting at it or you can say Jesus will sit at it. Are you seeing now how we Trinity people think.......He is in different places with different names as well.....YHWH is no different than Lord or Jehovah and God and Jesus or Yeshua and Christ or Messiah. they all mean different things or be given in place for God to be in.
Ok this is what i am saying....Jesus is the Father and is the Spirit, and if He is the Father and Spirit then pretty much He is one person in three ways or names under which God showed us. Jesus is The Father and if He is the Father then the Father will be sitting on his own right hand......do you see....So you are right on being one throne because there is only one person who sit at it and that is God or Jesus you can say as well.
(again this is my opinion) Father is another name for Jesus, and Jesus is another name for Holy Spirit that is why it says one throne because God is the only one sitting at it or you can say Jesus will sit at it. Are you seeing now how we Trinity people think.......He is in different places with different names as well.....YHWH is no different than Lord or Jehovah and God and Jesus or Yeshua and Christ or Messiah. they all mean different things or be given in place for God to be in.
Ok this is what i am saying....Jesus is the Father and is the Spirit, and if He is the Father and Spirit then pretty much He is one person in three ways or names under which God showed us. Jesus is The Father and if He is the Father then the Father will be sitting on his own right hand......do you see....So you are right on being one throne because there is only one person who sit at it and that is God or Jesus you can say as well.
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O
Father.Son, Holy Spirit are titles.... He (GOD) is also comforter, provider, my joy , love, peace. so do we now have as many gods as a hindu? ie god the provider, god the love, god the joy..... answer NO !!! we have ONE GOD manifest in many ways .. not one place in the Word the term God the Son ever used ,, Not once is the term God the Holy Spirit ever used.. those are catholic- protestant spirit of the devil(trinity ) terms or man made term!
Wake up everyone (JESUS) God is coming back soon... He is not coming back in 3 seperate pearons.. The Bible states several times Jesus is coming the Word also states God is coming... does that mean 2 are coming.. if so, which one is taking you?.. if you will simply read the Word for yourself and pray God will reveal Himself to you. Remember it is a personal relationship between you and God. You can not ride mommys or anybody elses coat tails to heaven.. so stop folllowing man and follow God.. Hear oh Israel the Lord our God is ONE LORD. His Name IS JESUS !!!!!
Wake up everyone (JESUS) God is coming back soon... He is not coming back in 3 seperate pearons.. The Bible states several times Jesus is coming the Word also states God is coming... does that mean 2 are coming.. if so, which one is taking you?.. if you will simply read the Word for yourself and pray God will reveal Himself to you. Remember it is a personal relationship between you and God. You can not ride mommys or anybody elses coat tails to heaven.. so stop folllowing man and follow God.. Hear oh Israel the Lord our God is ONE LORD. His Name IS JESUS !!!!!
S
Dear friend, I don't know? What are you trying to say Crazy4GODword. Your words seem Sabellian, rather than Trinitarian. God is not One Person with 3 different names. God is One God in three distinct persons: Father, Son, Spirit. In Erie PA Scott Harrington PS You say, "okay, this is what i am saying ... Jesus is the Father and is the Spirit ..." NO! That is wrong. Jesus is not the Father, and He is not the Spirit. The Father is the Father. Jesus Christ is the Son, the Son only. The Son is the Son. The Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit. Any child of God will believe that, and not OVERTHINK things WITH SABELLIANISM. See: GOOGLE wikipedia under SABELLIANISM. See also ONENESS PENTECOSTALISM.
S
Dear friends, Here is something on false views of the Trinity.
"Question: "What are Sabellianism, Modalism, and Monarchianism?"
"Answer: One of the most holy debated theological issues in the early Christian church was the doctrine of the Trinity. How do God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit relate to one another? How can there only be one God, but three Persons?? All early heresies resulted from individuals overemphasizing or underemphasizing the persons of the Godhead. Ultimately, all of these false views result from attempts by finite human beings to fully understand the infinite God (Romans 11:33-36). Sabellianism, Modalism, and Monarchianism are just three of the numerous false views.
Monarchianism had two primary forms, Dynamic Monarchianism and Modalistic Monarchianism. Dynamic Monarchianism is the view that God existed in Jesus, just as God exists in all of us, but that God existed in Jesus in a particularly powerful way. Jesus was God because God inhabited Him. Modalistic Monarchianism, also known as Modalism, is the view that God variously manifested Himself as the Father (primarily in the Old Testament0< other times as the Son (primarily conception to His ascension), and other times as the Holy Spirit (primarily after the ascension to Heaven). Modalistic Monarchianism / Modalism teaches that God revealed Himself in three different modes, and that He is not three Persons. Modalistic Monarchianism / Modalism is also known as Sabellianism, after Sabellius, an influential early proponent of the view. Yet another aspect of Modalistic Monarchianism / Modalism / Sabellianism is Patripassianism, which is the view that the Father who became incarnate, suffered, died, and was resurrected. Patripassianism teaches that God the Father became His own Son.
With all that said, Sabellianism, Modalism, Monarchianism (dynamic and modalistic) and Patripassianism are all unbiblical understanding of the relationship between the Persons of the Trinity. It is impossible for us as finite human beings to fully understand the Persons of the Trinity. The Bible presents God as God, but then speaks of three Persons -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. How these two truths harmonize is inconceivable to the human mind. When we attempt to define the indefinable (God), we will always fail ...
God save us all. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
"Question: "What are Sabellianism, Modalism, and Monarchianism?"
"Answer: One of the most holy debated theological issues in the early Christian church was the doctrine of the Trinity. How do God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit relate to one another? How can there only be one God, but three Persons?? All early heresies resulted from individuals overemphasizing or underemphasizing the persons of the Godhead. Ultimately, all of these false views result from attempts by finite human beings to fully understand the infinite God (Romans 11:33-36). Sabellianism, Modalism, and Monarchianism are just three of the numerous false views.
Monarchianism had two primary forms, Dynamic Monarchianism and Modalistic Monarchianism. Dynamic Monarchianism is the view that God existed in Jesus, just as God exists in all of us, but that God existed in Jesus in a particularly powerful way. Jesus was God because God inhabited Him. Modalistic Monarchianism, also known as Modalism, is the view that God variously manifested Himself as the Father (primarily in the Old Testament0< other times as the Son (primarily conception to His ascension), and other times as the Holy Spirit (primarily after the ascension to Heaven). Modalistic Monarchianism / Modalism teaches that God revealed Himself in three different modes, and that He is not three Persons. Modalistic Monarchianism / Modalism is also known as Sabellianism, after Sabellius, an influential early proponent of the view. Yet another aspect of Modalistic Monarchianism / Modalism / Sabellianism is Patripassianism, which is the view that the Father who became incarnate, suffered, died, and was resurrected. Patripassianism teaches that God the Father became His own Son.
With all that said, Sabellianism, Modalism, Monarchianism (dynamic and modalistic) and Patripassianism are all unbiblical understanding of the relationship between the Persons of the Trinity. It is impossible for us as finite human beings to fully understand the Persons of the Trinity. The Bible presents God as God, but then speaks of three Persons -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. How these two truths harmonize is inconceivable to the human mind. When we attempt to define the indefinable (God), we will always fail ...
God save us all. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
C
Sure,here are some Scriptures showing Jesus is God. If we could meet up on the Chat room sometime I'd love to share something with you also. Anyway..
Exodus 3:14
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
John 8:24
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.”
(Note He is not in the original manuscripts whoever wrote that added it in so it would "make sense" but Jesus did not say "I AM HE" He said "EGO EIMI" Which means I AM. But here is another proof...in John 8:58)
John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
(Note the JW's will most likely say "Before Abraham was alive He was in heaven.. With the Father.. They believe that before Jesus was Jesus He was Michael the Archangel..)
"Jesus Christ, whom we understand from the Scriptures to be Michael the archangel" (The Watchtower, February 15, 1979, p. 31),
(You can get them to READ this to you actually ... Before you even start sharing ANY Scripture.. Ask them to open up the Watchtower to page 31 (they are all the same).. And ask them to show you proof that Jesus is Michael the archangel.. They will give you like 1 Thes 5:9
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Which is absolutely NO proof Jesus is Michael the archangel just because it says the LORD will shout with the voice of an archangel... Anyway I'll give you plenty more Scripture for proof Jesus is indeed Jehovah God.
OK...
Ezekiel 1:24
When they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of many waters, like the voice of the Almighty, a tumult like the noise of an army; and when they stood still, they let down their wings.
Isaiah 44:6
6 “ Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘ I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.
Revelation 1
15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; (LOOK AT EZ 1:24)
16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.
17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me,“Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. (LOOK AT ISAIAH 44:6)
18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
(Note, they will most likely say well that is Jehovah (The Father, saying this.. But ask continue verse 18 and ask them if the Father was ever dead and is not alive forevermore? Not to mention John takes note it is indeed Jesus)
Here's more...
Isaiah 42:8
8 I am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.
LORD (in all caps) Is translated from YHWH which is often translated to Yahweh or Jehovah or Yehovah.. Hence Jehovah witnesses so if you actually go to the NWT (which they will have on them... Open up Isaiah 44:8 on there bible and it actually says "I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST SAITH JEHOVAH"..... Open up Isaiah 42:8 which says "I AM JEHOVAH THAT IS MY NAME AND MY GLORY I WILL NOT GIVE TO ANOTHER"
So...
John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Ask them what glory Jesus had, when Isaiah 42:8 clearly says "MY GLORY I WILL NOT GIVE TO ANOTHER"...
The Father is clearly described as Jehovah and so isn't Jesus.. So we have two persons identified as Jehovah.. We go to Acts chapter 5 and the Holy Spirit is referred to as "God!" So... We have 3 persons described as Jehovah and we know (deu 6:4).. Jehovah is ONE... That is the trinity. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. So..
I'll quote something from my friends site who is a Messianic Jew also and he explains how the trinity is NOT a gentile belief, it is actually taught in the Torah....
"Bereshis (Genesis) 19:24. Most English translations substitute Jehovah for LORD. If we read the verse correctly, it would read:
Then Jehovah rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah from Jehovah out of the heavens.
“Jehovah rained from Jehovah”? How many Jehovahs do we have? But my rabbi taught me that “echad” in the Shema means “one”! Actually “echad” is a united one.
“Yachid” means one."
" Isaiah 44:6 Again reading “Jehovah” as in the original Hebrew rather than substituting it with “LORD”.
Thus says Jehovah, the King of Israel, and His Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts, “I am the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no God.”
Why do we have two Jehovahs?"
(His site is Israeli Mission )
So in...
Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!
(Sh'ma Yis'ra'eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad.)
(Echad means UNITED ONE....YACHID means ONE... Yachid does not appear in Deu 6:4.... Echad does appear and it means "UNITED ONE")
The correct translation.. (By native Hebrew speakers, they will even admit this..)
So "Hear O Israel, JEHOVAH our God... Jehovah is UNITED"
Anyway.. Just remember, now you have facts IN the Bible.. To back up your belief Jesus is God.. You have undeniable evidence so.. Just keep that in mind no matter how upset you may get while speaking to them.. Remember to share this with them IN LOVE.... That is the key.. You have to make sure to be gentle and loving to them otherwise they will not receive it.. Just do heaps of praying before they come over and you will be fine and directed by the Holy Spirit...
Luke 21:15
for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.
Ephesians 4:15
"speaking the truth in love"
Anyway .. There is another teaching that is absolute proof in the bible that first century Messianic Jews and Gentiles believed the Messiah is indeed God. But I think you have enough right now, if you are ever on Christian Chat I'd love to share that one with you. Take care.. I will be prying for you
Exodus 3:14
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
John 8:24
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.”
(Note He is not in the original manuscripts whoever wrote that added it in so it would "make sense" but Jesus did not say "I AM HE" He said "EGO EIMI" Which means I AM. But here is another proof...in John 8:58)
John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
(Note the JW's will most likely say "Before Abraham was alive He was in heaven.. With the Father.. They believe that before Jesus was Jesus He was Michael the Archangel..)
"Jesus Christ, whom we understand from the Scriptures to be Michael the archangel" (The Watchtower, February 15, 1979, p. 31),
(You can get them to READ this to you actually ... Before you even start sharing ANY Scripture.. Ask them to open up the Watchtower to page 31 (they are all the same).. And ask them to show you proof that Jesus is Michael the archangel.. They will give you like 1 Thes 5:9
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Which is absolutely NO proof Jesus is Michael the archangel just because it says the LORD will shout with the voice of an archangel... Anyway I'll give you plenty more Scripture for proof Jesus is indeed Jehovah God.
OK...
Ezekiel 1:24
When they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of many waters, like the voice of the Almighty, a tumult like the noise of an army; and when they stood still, they let down their wings.
Isaiah 44:6
6 “ Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘ I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.
Revelation 1
15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; (LOOK AT EZ 1:24)
16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.
17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me,“Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. (LOOK AT ISAIAH 44:6)
18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
(Note, they will most likely say well that is Jehovah (The Father, saying this.. But ask continue verse 18 and ask them if the Father was ever dead and is not alive forevermore? Not to mention John takes note it is indeed Jesus)
Here's more...
Isaiah 42:8
8 I am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.
LORD (in all caps) Is translated from YHWH which is often translated to Yahweh or Jehovah or Yehovah.. Hence Jehovah witnesses so if you actually go to the NWT (which they will have on them... Open up Isaiah 44:8 on there bible and it actually says "I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST SAITH JEHOVAH"..... Open up Isaiah 42:8 which says "I AM JEHOVAH THAT IS MY NAME AND MY GLORY I WILL NOT GIVE TO ANOTHER"
So...
John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Ask them what glory Jesus had, when Isaiah 42:8 clearly says "MY GLORY I WILL NOT GIVE TO ANOTHER"...
The Father is clearly described as Jehovah and so isn't Jesus.. So we have two persons identified as Jehovah.. We go to Acts chapter 5 and the Holy Spirit is referred to as "God!" So... We have 3 persons described as Jehovah and we know (deu 6:4).. Jehovah is ONE... That is the trinity. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. So..
I'll quote something from my friends site who is a Messianic Jew also and he explains how the trinity is NOT a gentile belief, it is actually taught in the Torah....
"Bereshis (Genesis) 19:24. Most English translations substitute Jehovah for LORD. If we read the verse correctly, it would read:
Then Jehovah rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah from Jehovah out of the heavens.
“Jehovah rained from Jehovah”? How many Jehovahs do we have? But my rabbi taught me that “echad” in the Shema means “one”! Actually “echad” is a united one.
“Yachid” means one."
" Isaiah 44:6 Again reading “Jehovah” as in the original Hebrew rather than substituting it with “LORD”.
Thus says Jehovah, the King of Israel, and His Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts, “I am the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no God.”
Why do we have two Jehovahs?"
(His site is Israeli Mission )
So in...
Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!
(Sh'ma Yis'ra'eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad.)
(Echad means UNITED ONE....YACHID means ONE... Yachid does not appear in Deu 6:4.... Echad does appear and it means "UNITED ONE")
The correct translation.. (By native Hebrew speakers, they will even admit this..)
So "Hear O Israel, JEHOVAH our God... Jehovah is UNITED"
Anyway.. Just remember, now you have facts IN the Bible.. To back up your belief Jesus is God.. You have undeniable evidence so.. Just keep that in mind no matter how upset you may get while speaking to them.. Remember to share this with them IN LOVE.... That is the key.. You have to make sure to be gentle and loving to them otherwise they will not receive it.. Just do heaps of praying before they come over and you will be fine and directed by the Holy Spirit...
Luke 21:15
for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.
Ephesians 4:15
"speaking the truth in love"
Anyway .. There is another teaching that is absolute proof in the bible that first century Messianic Jews and Gentiles believed the Messiah is indeed God. But I think you have enough right now, if you are ever on Christian Chat I'd love to share that one with you. Take care.. I will be prying for you
this was from another thread would like to share...thought it would be pretty cool to show
C
what i am saying is the Trinity is.....God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit but they are one being. Jesus is the Father and the Father is Jesus. Except Jesus is the Father in a human body, and the Holy Spirit is the Father who lives inside a person, and the Father who is God almighty or El Shaddai . This is what Trinity is friend and you might be on something that doesn't exist.....are you saying Jesus is one being aside from the Father as if they are separate people. yes they are separate in form but in the Spirit it is the same person. God the Father is Christ...
Shalom and God bless
Shalom and God bless
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Z
The only reason this discussion is going on is because most of the people in this forum have rejected the biblical foundation of the truth which is the Church (1 Tim. 3:15), not the Bible. Those of you expressing opinions on trinitarianism vs. Sabellianism are simply rehashing territory covered by Christianity many centuries ago. There is a coventional wisdom which states, "Those who forget the lessons of the past are bound to repeat its mistakes." This discussion here is living proof of that statement.
the sinner, Zossima
the sinner, Zossima
S
Dear Crazy4GODword, "God the Father is Christ ..." you say. Not at all. The Father is the Father. Christ is the Son. The Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit. They are three specific, distinct Persons. They are not separate from each other, but they are all in each other, in the Godhead. They are one Being, God. But they are not "One Person". They are Three DISTINCT PERSONS. THREE PERSONS IN ONE GOD. In Erie Scott H.