Not By Works

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mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
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You're a liar...I love the truth....and mainline Christianity has it all wrong...Dishonest people Fran have no weight when it comes to truth....formally banned members back pushing obedience to remain saved = deceit
This makes me laugh

"mainline Christianity has it all wrong"

So if the bible is wrong, the theologians have it all wrong what have we believed for over 2,000 years
that is not clear enough that only now you suddenly know the truth?

How long did it take for the disciples to know Jesus was God? 3 years.
Few find the truth in Christ, and fewer still walk the narrow path of righteousness.

Heretics always start with your phrase, it always declares their true intentions, rebellion against Jesus.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
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I think the trouble with all addictions, is some are more susceptible than others.
The fact that people are more isolated and less functional in caring communities has led to
social withdrawal and sexual fantasies. It turns out that constant pornographic exposure
changes the structure of the brain and our attitudes to others, including God.

What is sad is when you meet people who are consummed with sexual addiction 24/7.
It eats their whole soul away. But it is not the majority, but like a lot of things it is hidden.
In some cultures like Japan, the virtual world is becoming more important to many men
than real relationships with people.

Churches when they are full of people who have come out of such things are often much
better placed to see how God transcends these things, and how in the Spirit we can be
over comers. If we ground ourselves emotionally and spiritually in the Holy Spirit and
Jesus, with an open heart and knowing love and responsibility, we are set free.

Listening to some who admit they are bound to sin and their hearts cannot be touched,
it would not surprise me is this is what their souls are crying out about in the hope
of resolution and healing.

Dear Jesus, Help us to share the gospel of hope and freedom, that we might see people
brought into the Kingdom and the shackles of addiction broken, In the Name of Jesus
Christ of Nazareth Amen
You shall know the truth
And the truth shall set you free.

But what is the truth?
The truth is that we're born shackled to sin, as you put it.
Servants of satan and Jesus could set us free.

If Jesus makes you free....
You will be free indeed.

Free to being slaves to satan.

Now some here will say this is speaking of perfectionism...
Not my problem --- we should all be on the same page like Jesus wanted us to be.

Philippians 2:1-3
1Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion,
2make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.
3Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;
 

YourTruthGod

Active member
Mar 9, 2019
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Do you believe that faith is dead UNTIL it produces works and then it becomes a living faith and we are saved by BOTH faith AND works? That is deceptive.
It isn’t deceptive to believe the scriptures.

Do you also believe that a tree is dead UNTIL it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree? It takes a living faith to produce works - made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved through faith FIRST,
Faith without works is dead.

then UNTO good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) It also takes a living tree to produce fruit. Something that is dead cannot produce anything. You must not put the cart before the horse.
Paul is explaining that we are to continue to obey after being saved.


So you believe that we are saved by faith + the right actions/works?
That is what the scriptures plainly say.

So how many works does it take?
Jesus saves a person when he accepts them.

How many works must we accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save us?
It isn’t an “add” as a supplement to what Jesus did. That is what false teachers say.

Jesus says plainly who he saves and why. He tells us how to get saved.

Jesus SAVES US ALL ON HIS OWN, but he chooses to save those who have the heart he will live in. We have to be sorry for our sins and repent, and call on him.

Do you believe that we saved by 90% faith and 10% works? Or maybe 50% faith and 50% works? *Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. *No supplements needed. (Romans 3:22-28)
Faith alone is dead and cannot save anyone.

In Genesis 12, we see that Abraham left his country to a land that God would show him, yet that is only part of the story and it was not until Genesis 15:5, AFTER God brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” *VERSE 6 - And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. *Just as we see in Romans 4:3 - “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” You seem determined to believe that salvation is based on the merits of obedience/works. Are you seeking personal credit and glory for salvation? :unsure:
You have been programmed by false teachers to say that. What you say is NOWHERE in the Bible. Nowhere anywhere in the Bible does it say what you did. It is not shameful to do what Jesus says to do to get saved. Jesus says plainly that his words are Spirit and life. Jesus says plainly to repent of your sins. He also tells us not to give up and to wait for him.

It only sounds mixed up to those who teach salvation by works. If what I explained to you in post #92,200 went right over your head, then it's because you teach salvation by works. You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine. When Paul uses the term "justified" he is using it in the legal (judicial) sense by which God accounts the believer as righteous, (Romans 4:2-6; 5:1) yet James is using the term "justified" to describe those who would show, exhibit, evidence, one to be righteous by the works that they do. (James 2:14-24)
This is a good point you bring up; and, if you keep with this deep and calm type of discussing with me, maybe you will hear me out about it.

Okay, here it goes: You noticed rightly that Paul speaks about being “justified”. Now think about it more…what justified the people in the Old Covenant? It was the purification works of the law! A person wasn’t justified before God unless they did the purification works of the law. That is what Paul is explaining. Paul is explaining why those WORKS OF THE LAW no longer justify. They no longer justify us before God because now only Jesus’ blood can clean us/justify us.

Please think about that more. I want to tell you that you are doing what few do, and that is to ask deeper question and really listen and consider what I am saying.
*Remember, James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).*
James is speaking to the people on their LEVEL OF FALSENESS. James heard of this faith alone false gospel where people thought they only had to believe in God to be saved. James is giving examples of how everyone has to have a right action with their faith. We know from the scriptures that we are to humble ourselves and repent of our sins. James gets stronger in his explanation to completely destroy the false teaching of faith alone by saying even the demons believe and do SOMETHING.

He completely wipes out all possibility of any kind of argument to have faith and nothing else.
You still cannot seem to grasp the difference between an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works (James 2:14) and faith that trusts in Christ "alone" for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)
You have to go back to what works Paul is speaking about. The purification works of the law were the only works that justified a person before God. That is how the Jews entered the covenant with God. That is how the Jews dealt with their flesh bodies. The Gentiles were the ones dead in their sins because they did not get justified/purified by doing the works of the law. The Gentiles were called UNCLEAN because they did not do the purification works of the law.

Man is saved through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone and works follow as the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of faith, but not as the essence of faith or as the means of salvation.
That preaching is not according to God’s Word.[/QUOTE]
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
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The Old Testament is an agreement between Israel and God. The New Covenant is an inheritance or the will, given by Yeshua (salvation) to His body. Actually available to all, but thats another topic.

Both require faith in sacrificial blood. The first is natural, the second spiritual. Which are you obeying? Natural or spiritual?

Why do you continually ask this question? It's been answered in all posts by all.
A few comments:

I ask this question for two reason:
1. To make people think and explain why they believe the old is passed away.
2. Because YOU said this in post no. 92,609:
Why are you teaching what men must do under the old covenant, rather than the inheritance of the new?

You say the above as if we are no longer under the Old Covenant. The New Covenant is also a covenant, as its name implies and since it is an agreement between man and God. Jesus had to die so we could inhert the Will,,, this is why it's called a Testament,,,,the New Testament,,,

The O.C is not only for Israel but also for us. Every word in the bible is for us.
I'm living under both covenants....if you want to think this is obeying all 613 laws,,,that is YOUR problem and not mine --- I'm done explaining what everyone here should know because they understand scripture.

You say it's another topic?
No. It's THE topic.
If you're in the N.C. you can be saved...
If you're not in it...you cannot be saved.
 

YourTruthGod

Active member
Mar 9, 2019
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Faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation and not in works saves (Ephesians 2:8,9).
Again, the works that we no longer have to do are the works of the law, which are the purification works of the law, for which circumcision in the flesh is the sign. WHY ELSE DO YOU THINK Paul TALKS about CIRCUMCISION SO MUCH?
An empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works" does not save. (James 2:14)
It remains alone? NO. Faith alone doesn't save in the first place.
Until you understand the difference and place your faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, you will remain on this merry go round of works salvation.
To trust Jesus with everything he says is NOT WRONG. There is no merry go round of works salvation.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
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No one says obedience isn't important. We define it differently.

The body of Jesus Christ is nothing like Israel and law.
Jesus did not come to abolish the l.aw.
There is only one type of obedience.
One either obeys or he doesn't.

If you thought obedience was important you would NOT have been arguing with me for the past few months. What is the argument then?

obedience
/əˈbiːdɪəns/
noun

  1. compliance with an order, request, or law or submission to another's authority.
    "children were taught to show their parents obedience"
    synonyms:compliance, acquiescence, tractability, tractableness, amenability;
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
12,824
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It isn’t deceptive to believe the scriptures.


Faith without works is dead.



Paul is explaining that we are to continue to obey after being saved.




That is what the scriptures plainly say.


Jesus saves a person when he accepts them.



It isn’t an “add” as a supplement to what Jesus did. That is what false teachers say.

Jesus says plainly who he saves and why. He tells us how to get saved.

Jesus SAVES US ALL ON HIS OWN, but he chooses to save those who have the heart he will live in. We have to be sorry for our sins and repent, and call on him.



Faith alone is dead and cannot save anyone.



You have been programmed by false teachers to say that. What you say is NOWHERE in the Bible. Nowhere anywhere in the Bible does it say what you did. It is not shameful to do what Jesus says to do to get saved. Jesus says plainly that his words are Spirit and life. Jesus says plainly to repent of your sins. He also tells us not to give up and to wait for him.



This is a good point you bring up; and, if you keep with this deep and calm type of discussing with me, maybe you will hear me out about it.

Okay, here it goes: You noticed rightly that Paul speaks about being “justified”. Now think about it more…what justified the people in the Old Covenant? It was the purification works of the law! A person wasn’t justified before God unless they did the purification works of the law. That is what Paul is explaining. Paul is explaining why those WORKS OF THE LAW no longer justify. They no longer justify us before God because now only Jesus’ blood can clean us/justify us.

Please think about that more. I want to tell you that you are doing what few do, and that is to ask deeper question and really listen and consider what I am saying.


James is speaking to the people on their LEVEL OF FALSENESS. James heard of this faith alone false gospel where people thought they only had to believe in God to be saved. James is giving examples of how everyone has to have a right action with their faith. We know from the scriptures that we are to humble ourselves and repent of our sins. James gets stronger in his explanation to completely destroy the false teaching of faith alone by saying even the demons believe and do SOMETHING.

He completely wipes out all possibility of any kind of argument to have faith and nothing else.


You have to go back to what works Paul is speaking about. The purification works of the law were the only works that justified a person before God. That is how the Jews entered the covenant with God. That is how the Jews dealt with their flesh bodies. The Gentiles were the ones dead in their sins because they did not get justified/purified by doing the works of the law. The Gentiles were called UNCLEAN because they did not do the purification works of the law.



That preaching is not according to God’s Word.
[/QUOTE]
Such error!

Lord, this type of error may indeed be the sin that leads to death. I don't know. If it is not, I pray You would open the eyes of this individual that he may see that he is trampling on the Blood of Your Son by adding his works to what Jesus has done.

Your Son sweat Blood praying to you that if there be ANY other way to take the cup from Him. Yet He did Your Will, to His Glory and our redemption. WE cannot give ourselves a NEW heart and make ourselves a NEW creation. I pray You would do that here. In Jesus sweet, Holy and precious Name I pray.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
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Faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation and not in works saves (Ephesians 2:8,9). An empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works" does not save. (James 2:14) Until you understand the difference and place your faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, you will remain on this merry go round of works salvation.
@YourTruthGod is NOT on any merry-go-round.

What he states is simple and truthful.
What you state is confusing and mixed up and makes no sense.

I'd hate to have a new Christian speak to you.
One minute you say faith alone does not saved.
That means we need works.

The next minute you say only faith alone saves and works are not needed and do not save.

Make up your mind....you're a bit confused.

FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.

No matter how many times you explain to us po' folk that don't want to understand...
it will still make no sense because you're wrong as wrong can be.

And souls are at stake.
Do I have to post
James 3:1 AGAIN?
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
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A few comments:

I ask this question for two reason:
1. To make people think and explain why they believe the old is passed away.
2. Because YOU said this in post no. 92,609:
Why are you teaching what men must do under the old covenant, rather than the inheritance of the new?

You say the above as if we are no longer under the Old Covenant. The New Covenant is also a covenant, as its name implies and since it is an agreement between man and God. Jesus had to die so we could inhert the Will,,, this is why it's called a Testament,,,,the New Testament,,,

The O.C is not only for Israel but also for us. Every word in the bible is for us.
I'm living under both covenants....if you want to think this is obeying all 613 laws,,,that is YOUR problem and not mine --- I'm done explaining what everyone here should know because they understand scripture.

You say it's another topic?
No. It's THE topic.
If you're in the N.C. you can be saved...
If you're not in it...you cannot be saved.
Well, am sorry to read this.

Only the new is in effect.


19 Therefore, my brothers, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus,

20 the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain (that is, through his flesh),

21 and since we have a great high priest over the household of God,

22 let us continue to come near with sincere hearts in the full assurance that faith provides, because our hearts have been sprinkled clean from a guilty conscience, and our bodies have been washed with pure water.

23 Let us continue to hold firmly to the hope that we confess without wavering, for the one who made the promise is faithful.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
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Such error!

Lord, this type of error may indeed be the sin that leads to death. I don't know. If it is not, I pray You would open the eyes of this individual that he may see that he is trampling on the Blood of Your Son by adding his works to what Jesus has done.

Your Son sweat Blood praying to you that if there be ANY other way to take the cup from Him. Yet He did Your Will, to His Glory and our redemption. WE cannot give ourselves a NEW heart and make ourselves a NEW creation. I pray You would do that here. In Jesus sweet, Holy and precious Name I pray.[/QUOTE]
No prayer needed Penn Ed.
What is the sin that leads to death?

Obeying God and doing works for Him?
You believe God will be upset with those that obeyed Him and did as He wanted them to?
JUST AS JESUS DID.

Jesus didn't shed His blood so you could proclaim that it's not necessary to do His will....
Read the book of Mathew...you'll learn what it is God wants you to know and why Jesus died for you.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
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I don't know why..

Must, should are words that mean law. No security in law. We are secure in Him. A fixed position.
We are secure in Him because we abide, we are communing with Him, He is the vine we are the branches,
His life flows from us in our praise and thanks.

I agree that we have no security in check box ticking or as Paul said, in keeping the law, faultless.

in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.
Phil 3:5-6

Our security is in Christ alone. And we know we are in Him because we obey and walk in His ways, they
are our heart beat.

I have met people on forums who it is not their heart beat, rather they confess they hate the law and feel
condemned just reading it. For me this defines a none born again soul where the Holy Spirit is not reflecting
His reality and repentance and confession of sin to produce a Holy refined saint.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Well, am sorry to read this.

Only the new is in effect.


19 Therefore, my brothers, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus,

20 the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain (that is, through his flesh),

21 and since we have a great high priest over the household of God,

22 let us continue to come near with sincere hearts in the full assurance that faith provides, because our hearts have been sprinkled clean from a guilty conscience, and our bodies have been washed with pure water.

23 Let us continue to hold firmly to the hope that we confess without wavering, for the one who made the promise is faithful.
Well the above is very sweet indeed....

You say you know the covenants?
Then you must surely know that they're much more complicated that just reading some scripture.
Surely you must know that no new covenant abolishes the previous one.
Surely you must know why the New C. was even necessary...
and THE DIFFERENCE between the Old and the New.

Would you care to explain that difference to us?

We are under the New Covenant but are also bound by the Mosaic Covenant since it was NOT abolished,,,as Jesus stated in Matthew 5:17 BTW.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Well, am sorry to read this.

Only the new is in effect.


19 Therefore, my brothers, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus,

20 the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain (that is, through his flesh),

21 and since we have a great high priest over the household of God,

22 let us continue to come near with sincere hearts in the full assurance that faith provides, because our hearts have been sprinkled clean from a guilty conscience, and our bodies have been washed with pure water.

23 Let us continue to hold firmly to the hope that we confess without wavering, for the one who made the promise is faithful.
Verse 23 is very interesting...
but, of course, some here only read the verses they like.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
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We are secure in Him because we abide, we are communing with Him, He is the vine we are the branches,
His life flows from us in our praise and thanks.

1 John 4:13 This is how we know that we abide in him and he in us: he has given us his Spirit.
I do agree about worship.

I agree that we have no security in check box ticking or as Paul said, in keeping the law, faultless.

Good

Our security is in Christ alone. And we know we are in Him because we obey and walk in His ways, they
are our heart beat.

Here is my disagreement. We know we are in Him (1) He has given us His Holy Spirit, (2) He promises us His keeping power to the end, we believe Him. Faith. Then actions from the new creation man/woman.


I have met people on forums who it is not their heart beat, rather they confess they hate the law and feel
condemned just reading it. For me this defines a none born again soul where the Holy Spirit is not reflecting
His reality and repentance and confession of sin to produce a Holy refined saint.

You are judging a heart. Condemnation does come from law. One is not free then. Plus, we will never be an overcomer through law. We live through the faith OF Jesus. Perhaps you have not yet realized this truth?
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
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Well the above is very sweet indeed....

You say you know the covenants?
Then you must surely know that they're much more complicated that just reading some scripture.
Surely you must know that no new covenant abolishes the previous one.
Surely you must know why the New C. was even necessary...
and THE DIFFERENCE between the Old and the New.

Would you care to explain that difference to us?

We are under the New Covenant but are also bound by the Mosaic Covenant since it was NOT abolished,,,as Jesus stated in Matthew 5:17 BTW.
No, you explain. I did.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
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Covenants

Why is Jesus the cornerstone that the builders rejected?
Because Jesus completes Gods message to mankind in Israel.
The old covenant unlocks the new covenant. One is the shadow of the other.

It is complicated. It took 2,000 years to construct the whole picture of Israel and the pharisees
who are the example of obeying God without a purified cleansed heart, pointless.

It is hard to see these things as God has laid them out, which is why it has so many parts.
The blood sacrifice is our salvation because only through God giving His all could we learn to
trust Him. We are so frail, so vulnerable, so anxious, without this love shinning bright we would
never ever go new such a holy, powerful, creator King or ever believe He cared.

It has never been a distant debt cancelling payment transaction, it has always been a question of speaking
to our hearts in the only way possible that would get through.

And still people who have heard this message their whole lives, have hearts of stone and rebel against
His word. It shows no matter how close you are, unless you have eyes to see and ears to heart you will
reject it all for something else.
 

YourTruthGod

Active member
Mar 9, 2019
984
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Hearts are purified by faith. (Acts 15:9)
That is about not making the Gentiles do the works of the law.



Are you seeking salvation based on the merits of your best efforts to follow rules and guidelines/works or through faith in Christ? :unsure:


Jesus tells us what to do. Do you think that is the right thing to say to Jesus when he says to obey?



You are correct about the Catholic church. Obedience to Christ does not include salvation by works (John 6:28-29)
Do you really want to hold to the belief that Jesus was speaking about only have faith? What about ALL THOSE scriptures he says to obey?
Cambellism teaches a 5 step false plan of salvation which culminates in water baptism for salvation. So where do you attend church?
All denominations teach some falseness. There are no more churches as there were during the laying of the foundation. I do not join any of them.
Believers love because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19)
That is ‘us’ in general. God doesn’t personally know sinners.



The love of God has been poured out within the hearts of believers through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Romans 5:5)
That is about receiving the Holy Spirit after we believe and obey.

It's actually you who misunderstands and this is the same error that is made in Catholicism and Campbellism in an effort to "get around" verses like Titus 3:5, Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..
NO WAY, they do NOT teach what I teach about it! All denominations teach it wrong.

Authentic faith is not without repentance and that is not what I mean by salvation through faith in Christ alone. Those who have placed their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to place their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.
No way, for we have to repent of our sins.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.


That scripture proves you wrong. Paul says REPENTANCE AND FAITH in the Lord.
 

YourTruthGod

Active member
Mar 9, 2019
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For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
That is about the purification WORK CALLED CIRCUMCISION OF THE FLESH.
That is the works that no longer save.
Abraham had faith and obeyed. His faith was made complete by his right actions!

James 2:22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.