Can women be Pastors?

[lightbearer]

I've always been taught that we can use the bible to interpret the bible. Some people, it seems, seem to think we need outside sources to understand the bible(usually 'theologians' from bible colleges or seminaries). These are also usually the people who end up saying the bible isn't inerrant, or other nonsense.

Good morning Didymous, I agree to a point. As you know GOD's Spirit is the essential ingredient. The scriptures being written in the Hebrew, Greek and then whatever language they are translated in I am pretty sure one would fine a few Lexicons, a dictionary and a book or two on grammar extremely helpful also.

 

[Didymous]

Good morning Didymous, I agree to a point. As you know GOD's Spirit is the essential ingredient. The scriptures being written in the Hebrew, Greek and then whatever language they are translated in I am pretty sure one would fine a few Lexicons, a dictionary and a book or two on grammar extremely helpful also.

Good morning, Lightbearer. I can agree with your list, and I have, or used to have, most of those myself. I was referring more to, for example, the history of Corinth(1,000 temple prostitutes, etc...). My point was that some people have so much outside knowledge that the bible becomes almost secondary to the aforementioned.

 

[lightbearer]

I can agree with your list, and I have, or used to have, most of those myself. I was referring more to, for example, the history of Corinth(1,000 temple prostitutes, etc...). My point was that some people have so much outside knowledge that the bible becomes almost secondary to the aforementioned.

Commentaries and such have their place. Just like teachers and preachers. But any time their words contradict the plainly spoken written Word of GOD, the place for their words would be the garbage bin.

However sometimes we want to understand things that are not completely revealed or quicker than what GOD intended for us.

 

[calibob]

Argh. How ignorant. Pastors to men? No. But according to Hebrews Chapter 7 vs 12 -14
Hebrews 7:12-14 English Standard Version (ESV)
12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. 13 For the one of whom these things are spoken belonged to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.

Hebrews 7:18-19 English Standard Version (ESV)

18 For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

The old law was given to men when men ruled everything. When men failed to do our jobs God allowed women like Deborah to take the lead. Let's not forget that Mary Magdalene was given the blessing to deliver the message that the Lord had risen before the 11 apostles that didn't come out to see if the lord's own prophecy that he would rise on the third day.

Furthermore to those who dwell on the law Hebrews 7 vs 25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

Jesus has the authority to amend the rules. Deal with it! Admittedly I myself might have a problem submitting to a woman Women aren't uneducated, illiterate, subservient baby making machines any more. They aren't the same as men but they are equals. Perhaps Women should pastor women to a degree and men should specialize in maleness. How many men can really say they counseled women about female problems? And visa versa?

I believe in the 21st century with educated women, we men should give them their proper's. This is a new world with new challenges. Let's not get stuck on stupid.

Old laws have been amended. Rule #1 is love God all the way and rule 2 is love our neighbor as ourselves.

We are saved by grace through faith purchased with the blood of the lanb of God... @decon

 

[lightbearer]

Paul through Christ Bluntly states.
1Cor 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Hard to Pastor if you are not permitted to speak.

As also saith the Law. Hmm, whatever does Paul mean by that. 1 Timothy says...

Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. 1Tim 2:7

So an ordained Preacher and Apostle who LIES NOT goes on to say.

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority ( to assume a stance of independent authority, give orders to, dictate to) over the man, but to be in silence (for it is not permitted unto them to speak). For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

So Women are not to teach nor tell a man what to do but to be in silence for it is not permitted for them to speak FOR THUS SAITH THE LAW, the Pentateuch. The section in which Paul who lies not but speaks the truth in Christ points to as the answer as to why women are not to teach or tell a man what to do. It DOES NOT SAY HIS REASON FOR SHARING THIS IN THE SPIRIT IS DUE TO PAGAN CUSTOMS OR SOCIAL DIFFICULTIES IN HIS TIME. HE WHOS SPEAKS THE TRUTH IN CHRIST AND LIES NOT STATES IN THE SPIRIT plainly, "For (because) Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

For it is WRITTEN, a thus saith the LORD,
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
(Gen 3:16 KJV)

However in alluding to that same text, PAUL WHO LIES NOT BUT SPEAKS THE TRUTH IN CHRIST shares,"Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."
1Tim 2:12-15

 

[Didymous]

Argh. How ignorant. Pastors to men? No. But according to Hebrews Chapter 7 vs 12 -14
Hebrews 7:12-14 English Standard Version (ESV)
12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. 13 For the one of whom these things are spoken belonged to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.

Hebrews 7:18-19 English Standard Version (ESV)

18 For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

The old law was given to men when men ruled everything. When men failed to do our jobs God allowed women like Deborah to take the lead. Let's not forget that Mary Magdalene was given the blessing to deliver the message that the Lord had risen before the 11 apostles that didn't come out to see if the lord's own prophecy that he would rise on the third day.

Furthermore to those who dwell on the law Hebrews 7 vs 25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

Jesus has the authority to amend the rules. Deal with it! Admittedly I myself might have a problem submitting to a woman Women aren't uneducated, illiterate, subservient baby making machines any more. They aren't the same as men but they are equals. Perhaps Women should pastor women to a degree and men should specialize in maleness. How many men can really say they counseled women about female problems? And visa versa?

I believe in the 21st century with educated women, we men should give them their proper's. This is a new world with new challenges. Let's not get stuck on stupid.

Old laws have been amended. Rule #1 is love God all the way and rule 2 is love our neighbor as ourselves.

We are saved by grace through faith purchased with the blood of the lanb of God... @decon

None of what you said supports women being pastors. God changes not, and neither does his word. We don't conform God's word to the modern world, but maybe we should change the world with God's word.

The last woman I talked with said she'd walk behind me, because she knew her place. I told her she'd walk at my side, because that was her place, as my equal.

 

[calibob]

None of what you said supports women being pastors. God changes not, and neither does his word. We don't conform God's word to the modern world, but maybe we should change the world with God's word.

The last woman I talked with said she'd walk behind me, because she knew her place. I told her she'd walk at my side, because that was her place, as my equal.

I never finished my post. A surge or something happened and it was gone before I finished and I lost my train of thought.

Question; Have you ever had to step up to the plate and raise a daughter without a wife? Women have had to do our jobs for a milinea because men run away. They've had to do it because we fail. Should we forbid them? I was trying to say it might be a good idea for women to teach girls and men to teach boys. Since remarriage after divorce is forbidden I had to raise a daughter without a wife because she ran away... Women have had to learn to carry on without men for longer than I care to quantify. Why shouldn't they be allowed? In fact in Salvation Army and Foursquare churches husbands and wives share the role.

This isn't Rome, Greece or Iran.

 

[posthuman]

1. The simple reason why women can not preach/teach is that the Spirit of God can not flow from a point of lower authority to a higher authority

"a little child shall lead them"

 

[Dino246]

1. I'm not going to discuss Greek or any other language, 'certain' languages are not synonymous to truth.

Ignorance is excusable, but willful ignorance is not.

2. Paul is writing to Timothy to give him guidance, the idea that Timothy was dealing with pagans who believed certain things about women leadership is neither here nor there, it has no basis.

It has very strong basis in the cultural context. In light of that context, Paul's words to Timothy all make perfect sense. Without that context, they are nonsensical.

3. Paul has repeated the same thing for many other congregations including Ephesians and Corinthians and his basis for saying that also goes back to Adam and Eve and the creation story. A woman submitting to a man is not a pagan thing, it is about authority - you submit to an authority.

The part in bold is sexist, not biblical.

4. The hierarchy is from the beginning and will never change.
Eve sinned but it will never be said that sin and therefore death came to the world through one woman, it came through one man who was an authority over that woman.

Scripture says nothing of Adam having authority over Eve.

mmmh you are far from getting it.

Q1. Did Jesus preach and did He have to die?
Q2. Did Jesus promise His disciples the same baptism (death) that He was to undergo? why?

...

As much as he had preached and they had been established in the word, setting aside the tent of his body was something that had to be done because he lives through his words into the believers (his listeners). Non of those preachers you mentioned above has the right to these claims.

Completely irrelevant to the topic.

 

[Dino246]

Paul through Christ Bluntly states.
1Cor 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Except, it doesn't.

 

[Noose]

It has very strong basis in the cultural context. In light of that context, Paul's words to Timothy all make perfect sense. Without that context, they are nonsensical.

No scriptural basis at all, just opinions, extra biblical opinions.
Scripture makes perfect sense the way it is without adding your opinions. Paul's letter to Timothy was instructions on how they and we and every church member ought to behave, pagan or not, 1st century or 21st century, otherwise it should not be part of scripture.

The part in bold is sexist, not biblical.

Better call Saul, not me. I'm just quoting what he said.

1 Corinthians 11:3
But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

1 Corinthians 14:34
women are to be silent in the churches. They are not permitted to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.

Scripture says nothing of Adam having authority over Eve.

Genesis 3:16To the woman He said: “I will sharply increaseyour pain in childbirth; in pain you will bring forthchildren. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”

 

[lightbearer]

Except, it doesn't.

It does according to GOD through Paul.

1Cor 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; BUT they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

 

[Dino246]

No scriptural basis at all, just opinions, extra biblical opinions.
Scripture makes perfect sense the way it is without adding your opinions. Paul's letter to Timothy was instructions on how they and we and every church member ought to behave, pagan or not, 1st century or 21st century, otherwise it should not be part of scripture.

Thanks for your opinion. We disagree.

A woman submitting to a man is not a pagan thing, it is about authority

"The part in bold is sexist, not biblical." (Dino246)

Better call Saul, not me. I'm just quoting what he said.

No, Paul didn't say that.

Genesis 3:16To the woman He said: “I will sharply increaseyour pain in childbirth; in pain you will bring forthchildren. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”

That isn't a command; it's a statement of consequence, as in, "He will assume authority over you."

 

[Dino246]

It does according to GOD through Paul.

1Cor 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; BUT they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

That's a circular argument and therefore has no merit.

 

[Noose]

That isn't a command. Commands are given to the one who is to act, not the one who is to be a passive recipient of that action.

Who said it was a command? who said it isn't a command?

I was just pointing out an obvious error from you

Scripture says nothing of Adam having authority over Eve.

Completely irrelevant to the topic.

Oh yes, the scripture says something about Adam having authority over Eve, command or not.

 

[Dino246]

Who said it was a command? who said it isn't a command?

I was just pointing out an obvious error from you


Oh yes, the scripture says something about Adam having authority over Eve, command or not.

For the record, I was in the process of editing my post and completed my edits after you made this post.

 

[Noose]

"The part in bold is sexist, not biblical." (Dino246)

No, Paul didn't say that.

Yes, Paul said it.
1 Corinthians 11:3
But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Q. Does Christ have authority over the Church? absolutely
Q. Does men have authority over women according to Paul? absolutely

1 Corinthians 14:34
women are to be silent in the churches. They are not permitted to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.

You can only submit to an authority and Paul here is not talking about women submitting to the Lord but to men by being silent.
As much as it sounds bad to some ears, it is what it is, no sugar coating, no clever interpretations.

Eph 5:22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, His body, of which He is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Yes, wives submit to the husbands as to to the Lord. A command, no clever interpretations needed, just as the church submits to God.

That isn't a command; it's a statement of consequence, as in, "He will assume authority over you."

Again, command or not, Adam had authority over Eve and men have authority over women. Fathers have authority over sons/ Teachers have authority over students/ Masters have authority over servants/ Mothers have authority over daughters.

It is all over the bible.

 

[calibob]

Yes, Paul said it.
1 Corinthians 11:3
But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Q. Does Christ have authority over the Church? absolutely
Q. Does men have authority over women according to Paul? absolutely

1 Corinthians 14:34
women are to be silent in the churches. They are not permitted to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.

You can only submit to an authority and Paul here is not talking about women submitting to the Lord but to men by being silent.
As much as it sounds bad to some ears, it is what it is, no sugar coating, no clever interpretations.

Eph 5:22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, His body, of which He is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Yes, wives submit to the husbands as to to the Lord. A command, no clever interpretations needed, just as the church submits to God.



Again, command or not, Adam had authority over Eve and men have authority over women. Fathers have authority over sons/ Teachers have authority over students/ Masters have authority over servants/ Mothers have authority over daughters.

It is all over the bible.

Paul was writing about real time 2000 years ago. Before anyone even thought about giving ladies the right to vote, go to college or wear pants.

 

[lightbearer]

That's a circular argument and therefore has no merit.

If you have nothing; say nothing. The only one you are fooling is yourself if that.

 

[Didymous]

I never finished my post. A surge or something happened and it was gone before I finished and I lost my train of thought.

Question; Have you ever had to step up to the plate and raise a daughter without a wife? Women have had to do our jobs for a milinea because men run away. They've had to do it because we fail. Should we forbid them? I was trying to say it might be a good idea for women to teach girls and men to teach boys. Since remarriage after divorce is forbidden I had to raise a daughter without a wife because she ran away... Women have had to learn to carry on without men for longer than I care to quantify. Why shouldn't they be allowed? In fact in Salvation Army and Foursquare churches husbands and wives share the role.

This isn't Rome, Greece or Iran.

I raised two daughters without their mother. I don't understand the 'we' thing. It's not us that make policy, it's God. In fact, if a woman isn't married, then there's no conflict with the scriptures that always troubled me(about wives submitting, and pastors ruling their house).