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Zone,
You really believe in your heart that anyone that believes and propagates the pre-trib rapture of the church is part of the Babylonian system that takes people to hell. You really think that and believe that to be true from all the remarks you have made. If they are as you believe, their is no point in convincing them otherwise, because chances are they have never truly repented nor do they have the Spirit. You have wondered how I could understand the finished work and believe as I do concerning Christ and the church. Your head knowledge is effecting the testimony of Christ in your life and you are the one that has to deal with that in humility through the grace of God. I have been off about issues of doctrine in the past and had to correct them, but this issue of the rapture of the church was not one of them.
You really believe in your heart that anyone that believes and propagates the pre-trib rapture of the church is part of the Babylonian system that takes people to hell. You really think that and believe that to be true from all the remarks you have made. If they are as you believe, their is no point in convincing them otherwise, because chances are they have never truly repented nor do they have the Spirit. You have wondered how I could understand the finished work and believe as I do concerning Christ and the church. Your head knowledge is effecting the testimony of Christ in your life and you are the one that has to deal with that in humility through the grace of God. I have been off about issues of doctrine in the past and had to correct them, but this issue of the rapture of the church was not one of them.
coop.
you teach a PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE OF GENTILE BELIEVERS.
YOU SAY THAT HAPPENS AT PAUL'S LAST TRUMPET.
IS THE TIME BETWEEN THE RAPTURE AND THE SECOND ADVENT 7 YEARS? if not, how long is it? how long is the tribulation?
(you claim this last trumpet of Paul's is blown by Jesus Himself, i need to see this part in the text please.)
if Paul's last trumpet signals the PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE, but it is NOT the trumpet which signals the CONSUMMATION of all of History and The Second Advent, The Judgment and The lake of fire and New Heavens and new Earth, please explain the following passages:
1 Corinthians 15
Mystery and Victory
50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
~
1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
Isaiah 25:8
he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth. The LORD has spoken.
Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:4
He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
are these not all the same event?
just answer yes or no please. we'll go from there.
zone.
you teach a PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE OF GENTILE BELIEVERS.
YOU SAY THAT HAPPENS AT PAUL'S LAST TRUMPET.
IS THE TIME BETWEEN THE RAPTURE AND THE SECOND ADVENT 7 YEARS? if not, how long is it? how long is the tribulation?
(you claim this last trumpet of Paul's is blown by Jesus Himself, i need to see this part in the text please.)
if Paul's last trumpet signals the PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE, but it is NOT the trumpet which signals the CONSUMMATION of all of History and The Second Advent, The Judgment and The lake of fire and New Heavens and new Earth, please explain the following passages:
1 Corinthians 15
Mystery and Victory
50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
~
1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
Isaiah 25:8
he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth. The LORD has spoken.
Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:4
He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
are these not all the same event?
just answer yes or no please. we'll go from there.
zone.
you read the book in a linear fashion like all dispensationalists.
nothing i can do for you if you can't even be bothered to consider the other models.
forget the 144,000 for now. i want to know why there are ANY saints on the earth during the tribulation.
i said i did. why are you asking? will they be left behind because they are racially jewish (whatever that is)?
gentile before conversion? WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? nothing.
you're desperate.
and if there are jews in your fantasy raptured church, why do you call it a gentile church?
here's what you wrote:
please show me a SINGLE VERSE that says the vast majority of people going in the rapture are gentiles. show me ONE VERSE. if you can't do that, you're making stuff up (that's a generous term).
show me where, ANYWHERE in the bible where its says anything like: "and the world was astonished to see that millions, if not billions of people had been take up/disappeared". ANYTHING. ONE VERSE.
sigh. you're getting to be repetitive ad boring. you have no foundation and you're sinking in your sand...
i NEVER make a distinction between jew and gentile in Christ unless i have to contend with you dispensationalists who DO make the distinction (to the great hurt of the jews, btw)
YOU....YOU SAID GENTILE (not me):
tell me what the % is coop.
you seem to have all the answers.
and tell me how you know who is TRULY a descendant of jacob? is it if they live in Israel? because they practise Judaism?
how do you know coop?.....answer this....you're smarter than a 5th grader i presume.
answer some of the questions i've asked please. no imagination delving please.
provide the simple verses, and document your claims. then we'll keep talking.
nothing i can do for you if you can't even be bothered to consider the other models.
forget the 144,000 for now. i want to know why there are ANY saints on the earth during the tribulation.
i said i did. why are you asking? will they be left behind because they are racially jewish (whatever that is)?
gentile before conversion? WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? nothing.
you're desperate.
and if there are jews in your fantasy raptured church, why do you call it a gentile church?
here's what you wrote:
please show me a SINGLE VERSE that says the vast majority of people going in the rapture are gentiles. show me ONE VERSE. if you can't do that, you're making stuff up (that's a generous term).
show me where, ANYWHERE in the bible where its says anything like: "and the world was astonished to see that millions, if not billions of people had been take up/disappeared". ANYTHING. ONE VERSE.
sigh. you're getting to be repetitive ad boring. you have no foundation and you're sinking in your sand...
i NEVER make a distinction between jew and gentile in Christ unless i have to contend with you dispensationalists who DO make the distinction (to the great hurt of the jews, btw)
YOU....YOU SAID GENTILE (not me):
tell me what the % is coop.
you seem to have all the answers.
and tell me how you know who is TRULY a descendant of jacob? is it if they live in Israel? because they practise Judaism?
how do you know coop?.....answer this....you're smarter than a 5th grader i presume.
answer some of the questions i've asked please. no imagination delving please.
provide the simple verses, and document your claims. then we'll keep talking.
S
The pretrib rapture makes 3 comings of Christ, when the Bible limits Christ's comings to 2. Once, Christ came already, was born in Bethlehem, died in Jerusalem, and rose from the dead near Jerusalem on the third day. Christ is Lord. But Christ's second coming will not be secret. He will come in glory, to judge the living and the dead, of Whose Kingdom there is no end. Every eye will see Christ when He comes again. Of that day and hour no man knoweth, but only the Father, Who is in heaven. God save us. Amen. Come, Lord Jesus! Take care.
axe to grind? i'm sick of being lied to by dispensationalists...i'm sick of them deceiving genuine seekers.
i'm sick of people who have been privileged to study the Scriptures at length and STILL teach falsely.
its very disappointing since you know the doctrines of grace so well.
but the rest of your stuff is jewish fables and you are discredited.
you are helping Mystery Babylon (you still haven't told me USING THE WORD who she is...if you did, your doctrine would be exposed).
you haven't addressed any of the issues i've laid out on: pretrib; 70 weeks; 3 advents; flesh men on earthly jerusalem; jews aren't supposed to press into the new Covenant....none of it.
were all 70 weeks fulfilled red?
do the jews get another chance under some other system?
without that 7 years, your theory is in trouble.
i'm sick of people who have been privileged to study the Scriptures at length and STILL teach falsely.
its very disappointing since you know the doctrines of grace so well.
but the rest of your stuff is jewish fables and you are discredited.
you are helping Mystery Babylon (you still haven't told me USING THE WORD who she is...if you did, your doctrine would be exposed).
you haven't addressed any of the issues i've laid out on: pretrib; 70 weeks; 3 advents; flesh men on earthly jerusalem; jews aren't supposed to press into the new Covenant....none of it.
were all 70 weeks fulfilled red?
do the jews get another chance under some other system?
without that 7 years, your theory is in trouble.
hi endof.
thank you
so, in purple above, if that is so, does that mean Jesus could be ruling now from Heaven even though we still on earth have to deal with evil?
(WHEAT & THE TARES...let both grow together UNTIL THE HARVEST)
and that as the priesthood (though we ALREADY HAVE eternal life), we are on earth (supposedly) preaching the Gospel to all the world? is this not how the Lord is adding to His church/ is this not how believers are translated to His Eternal Kingdom? is The Kingdom work NOT being performed by the preaching of the Gospel?
and do you believe in a new heaven and new earth, or this old one refurbished and renewed as the millennialists say? (i don't think you do)
i love you
zone.
thank you
so, in purple above, if that is so, does that mean Jesus could be ruling now from Heaven even though we still on earth have to deal with evil?
(WHEAT & THE TARES...let both grow together UNTIL THE HARVEST)
and that as the priesthood (though we ALREADY HAVE eternal life), we are on earth (supposedly
) preaching the Gospel to all the world? is this not how the Lord is adding to His church/ is this not how believers are translated to His Eternal Kingdom? is The Kingdom work NOT being performed by the preaching of the Gospel?and do you believe in a new heaven and new earth, or this old one refurbished and renewed as the millennialists say? (i don't think you do)
i love you
zone.
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this issue of the rapture has ramifications that are heretical, and deny the work of Jesus Christ.
pretrib rapture has Jesus reversing His Work to reign in a Temple made with hands.
show me where the 70th Week was not fulfilled by Jesus Christ.
with that 70th week severed from His Finished Work there is no forgiveness for sin for ANYONE. if Jesus wasn't the Anointed (The Most Holy), and Crucified (cut off), and rose from the dead (defeating death and making redemption possible), then ascended into Heaven (reigning at the right Hand of God, making reconciliation through Intercession as High Priest) during the 70th week, YOU ARE TEACHING ANOTHER JESUS AND ANOTHER GOSPEL.
that strange and ineffective jesus hasn't finished his work.
if the 70th week has been fulfilled, where's your 7 year (70th week) tribulation the saints must be raptured from?
if the 70th Week was Fulfilled, why the need for 7 years and the renewed Mosaic System (?) for jews to "get right with God"
and by the way: please show me ALL Scriptures that say the saints are NOT appointed to TRIBULATION.
pretrib rapture has Jesus reversing His Work to reign in a Temple made with hands.
show me where the 70th Week was not fulfilled by Jesus Christ.
with that 70th week severed from His Finished Work there is no forgiveness for sin for ANYONE. if Jesus wasn't the Anointed (The Most Holy), and Crucified (cut off), and rose from the dead (defeating death and making redemption possible), then ascended into Heaven (reigning at the right Hand of God, making reconciliation through Intercession as High Priest) during the 70th week, YOU ARE TEACHING ANOTHER JESUS AND ANOTHER GOSPEL.
that strange and ineffective jesus hasn't finished his work.
if the 70th week has been fulfilled, where's your 7 year (70th week) tribulation the saints must be raptured from?
if the 70th Week was Fulfilled, why the need for 7 years and the renewed Mosaic System (?) for jews to "get right with God"
and by the way: please show me ALL Scriptures that say the saints are NOT appointed to TRIBULATION.
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axe to grind? i'm sick of being lied to by dispensationalists...i'm sick of them deceiving genuine seekers.
i'm sick of people who have been privileged to study the Scriptures at length and STILL teach falsely.
its very disappointing since you know the doctrines of grace so well.
but the rest of your stuff is jewish fables and you are discredited.
you are helping Mystery Babylon (you still haven't told me USING THE WORD who she is...if you did, your doctrine would be exposed).
you haven't addressed any of the issues i've laid out on: pretrib; 70 weeks; 3 advents; flesh men on earthly jerusalem; jews aren't supposed to press into the new Covenant....none of it.
were all 70 weeks fulfilled red?
do the jews get another chance under some other system?
without that 7 years, your theory is in trouble.
i'm sick of people who have been privileged to study the Scriptures at length and STILL teach falsely.
its very disappointing since you know the doctrines of grace so well.
but the rest of your stuff is jewish fables and you are discredited.
you are helping Mystery Babylon (you still haven't told me USING THE WORD who she is...if you did, your doctrine would be exposed).
you haven't addressed any of the issues i've laid out on: pretrib; 70 weeks; 3 advents; flesh men on earthly jerusalem; jews aren't supposed to press into the new Covenant....none of it.
were all 70 weeks fulfilled red?
do the jews get another chance under some other system?
without that 7 years, your theory is in trouble.
No matter how many times these things are laid out for you, and many a time they have, even in black and white, you will not recognize them in any way. You are diametrically opposed to them and will disagree and accuse of false teaching in every case. It is better to shut our mouths then to let you mock and ridicule what the scriptures teach and edify believers on this subject. I wanted to at an earlier time but this mocking spirit tries to take over the discussion and I did not do it. Believe as you will, but I would not allow you to teach your doctrine in my local church and assembly of believers, you can count on that. Take that as you may and do with it as you want, but your doctrine does not edify the church nor does it magnify the Lord Jesus Christ and His doctrine. The church that is made up of both Jew and Gentile is not Israel and Israel is not the church. The church was grafted in and adopted and Israel was the natural branch that was cut off...
Rom 11:17-29
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (when does this fulness of the Gentiles finally come in? Does it come in at you next birthday party or is it in the future when it is filled by the last Gentile?)
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob (this comes after (verse 25) when the fulness of the Gentiles must take place first)
The gospel was to the Jew first and then to the Gentiles (Rom 1:16) because that middle wall of partition was broken down through the blood of the cross (Eph 2:10-22) but that does not mean in any way that Israel is the church. The church is both Jew and Gentile who believe. Jacob in his verse cannot mean anything but Israel and this is future for those that remained cut off and in unbelief.
The verbs in this verse are: shall be saved is future/passive/indicative, and shall come with shall turn away are future/active indicative. These things takes place in the future and have not been fulfilled and the action of these verbs comes from the Deliverer who comes out of Sion and will save and turn away ungodliness from Jacob as the infinitive mood confirms these things as a future fact that will take place.
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take ( away their sins. Christ has put away their sins at the cross positionally, as He has does for the sins of the whole world. But, He is going to do this for Jacob experientially in the future when they will see Him, not at the rapture of the church, but at the second coming when He comes to the earth and they realize that the one they had rejected was truely their Messiah.
28 As concerning the gospel, they (Israel) are enemies for your (Gentiles) sakes: but as touching the election, they (Israel) are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Zone , what do you think of (verse 28)? I suppose you think Paul is talking about spiritual Israel which to you is the church. Your own doctrine and understanding has to rebuke what is being taught here in (Rom 11). That makes you as one who is wise in your own conceits, highminded and with no fear.
what things?
dispensational theology which says Jesus didn't Finish His Work for Israel?
that because many rejected Him, His Kingdom was postponed? (MANY DIDN'T REJECT HIM - DO YOU FORGET THAT PART?...He confirmed the Covenant with MANY for one week)
you mean that the jews don't need Jesus NOW?
that's BLASPHEMY. and antisemitic.
why would i recognize that?
or do you mean pretrib rapture?
which is just an excuse for the above false and hurtful doctrine.
Red, have you ever actually spoken to jews who have truly become Christians?
Christian zionists generally only listen to their preachers who deal with rabbis who are unbeleiving jews (and they tell them God is pleased with them in spite of their continuing unbelief....TELL ME: how many perished in the wilderness and God refused to allow them to enter into his Rest (The Promised Land) DUE TO UNBELIEF?
former jews who are now Christians will tell you all that stuff you teach is false.
pretribulation doctrine edifies believers? how?
by promising them something God NEVER PROMISED - that thy would not see tribulation?
is that what you're on about?
but, it's FALSE DOCTRINE. so what if it "edifies believers"? it's hurting them, not helping.
i asked you: PROVIDE ONE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS CHRISTIANS ARE NOT APPOINTED TO TRIBULATION. JUST ONE.
of course you wouldn't....it goes against EVERYTHING you teach!
rest assured dear friend....i've suffered through those teachings from pulpits enough. i won't be doing it anymore.
TRUTH edifies and unites the church. not fables.
it's you who deny He Completed The Work He Came to do, exactly according to the Scriptures.
its you who says His work was not sufficient for Israel.
its you who teaches a third advent, another jesus.
its you who is hurting the jews.
what a disaster.
is there anyone else out there in CC Land that would care to deal with this?
what CONFUSION.
what babble.
????????????
ALL ISRAEL WAS CUT OFF?
so the gentiles could be grafted in?
huh? is that where you get this twisted theology?
who told you that?
that doesn't exactly square with this, does it:
if all Israel was cut off, what are you doing with jews in your Plan B "church"?
someere broken off because of UNBELIEF!
and guess what? this line applies to YOU! (not me): Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. >> your theology says this!
see how and why they are grafted back in? is it because of a temple System in Jerusalem? a Millennial reign?
or is it when they turn to Christ and BELIEVE? when they turn to Christ the veil is removed....but is that what you Christian Zionists tell them? or do you tell them not to wory - they are still in a different Covenant with God?
oh and look at all the underlining about BOASTING.
why are you trying to make this about me supposedly BOASTING?
it's ME who continually pleads to tell the jews the TRUTH!
JEWS! PRESS IN NOW - THERE'S NO SECOND CHANCE IN A FANTASY MOSAIC SYSTEM while the good christian zionists who lied to you are floating around having been raptured!
why don't you make it about your delusion that there is anything other than One New Covenant that all press into NOW?
and why do you always skip over the IN PART bit?
you can underline and bold the wise in your own conceits and boasting all you want to - i tell the jews the TRUTH....do you?
docuement for me when "the last gentile comes in"....is that when the rapture happens?
oh please.
it's really underhanded for you to unabashedly claim that i somehow REJOICE in people cut off through unbelief. that's actually disgraceful and i reject it.
things like your pretrib dispensational theology (the jews don't need Jesus NOW) is the most damaging thing i can imagine.
and for you to suggest that people who may be at this moment be being taught to blaspheme and commit the unpardonable sin are to be saved anyway due to:
1) geneology (NO FAITH NEEDED HUH????)
2) Mosaic Law
speaks for itself. you're just continuing to feed the same stuff the Pharisees ruined their people with.
um.....ya...hello?
shall be.....future? as in WHEN RED?
when your mythological "Plan B church' has been raptured and is partying in Heaven while people are sacrificing animals in jerusalem?
or, do you agree with the crackpot theory that all the jews who ever lived regardless of anything else will be resurrected into another temporary flesh body to "get right with God" under some other system while glorified saints roam around this earth?
~ or does it mean future as in all through history and just prior to The Second Advent God will remove the veil from the full number of His election as they receive the truth and come into His Church according to Acts 2:38?
"And so all Israel shall be saved"
btw Red...how come you leave out these parts?
Romans 9
God’s Sovereign Choice
1I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers,a my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
see where it says Promise? THAT MEANS FAITH IN CHRIST....NOW!
but, you want to look and sound sooooooo much "for" Israel, you're willing to risk their salvation and consign them to some future Plan A restored (not real) when Plan B (the church is gone - not real either) because you will not preach the TRUE GOSPEL.
so please stop pretending you love the jews. you're hurting them.
and stop pretending i'm some lone nut who invented NO PRETRIB, NO MOSAIC WHATEVER MILLENNIUM, okay?
oh my gosh....
what to say?
what exactly can i say to someone who thinks there's a rapture of the church?
how can you know ANYTHING else?
please EXPLAIN CLEARLY what is happening on earth while you are raptured away that would change the following?
is God going to go back to Plan A when you're "gone" and cancel what Paul said below?
Galatians 4
Example of Hagar and Sarah
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23 But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,
“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”
28 Now you,f brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.
what about it? you say ALL ISRAEL will be saved. regardless. somehow.
and you HAVE to have all that dispensational stuff to make that work.
why don't you just preach them the Historic Gospel and tell them to look (like their forefathers did) for a New Heaven, New Earth, New Jerusalem....tell them come into the New Covenant, for THERE IS NO OTHER.
dispensational theology which says Jesus didn't Finish His Work for Israel?
that because many rejected Him, His Kingdom was postponed? (MANY DIDN'T REJECT HIM - DO YOU FORGET THAT PART?...He confirmed the Covenant with MANY for one week)
you mean that the jews don't need Jesus NOW?
that's BLASPHEMY. and antisemitic.
why would i recognize that?
or do you mean pretrib rapture?
which is just an excuse for the above false and hurtful doctrine.
Red, have you ever actually spoken to jews who have truly become Christians?
Christian zionists generally only listen to their preachers who deal with rabbis who are unbeleiving jews (and they tell them God is pleased with them in spite of their continuing unbelief....TELL ME: how many perished in the wilderness and God refused to allow them to enter into his Rest (The Promised Land) DUE TO UNBELIEF?
former jews who are now Christians will tell you all that stuff you teach is false.
pretribulation doctrine edifies believers? how?
by promising them something God NEVER PROMISED - that thy would not see tribulation?
is that what you're on about?
but, it's FALSE DOCTRINE. so what if it "edifies believers"? it's hurting them, not helping.
i asked you: PROVIDE ONE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS CHRISTIANS ARE NOT APPOINTED TO TRIBULATION. JUST ONE.
of course you wouldn't....it goes against EVERYTHING you teach!
rest assured dear friend....i've suffered through those teachings from pulpits enough. i won't be doing it anymore.
TRUTH edifies and unites the church. not fables.
it's you who deny He Completed The Work He Came to do, exactly according to the Scriptures.
its you who says His work was not sufficient for Israel.
its you who teaches a third advent, another jesus.
its you who is hurting the jews.
what a disaster.
is there anyone else out there in CC Land that would care to deal with this?
what CONFUSION.
what babble.
????????????
ALL ISRAEL WAS CUT OFF?
so the gentiles could be grafted in?
huh? is that where you get this twisted theology?
who told you that?
that doesn't exactly square with this, does it:
if all Israel was cut off, what are you doing with jews in your Plan B "church"?
someere broken off because of UNBELIEF!
and guess what? this line applies to YOU! (not me): Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. >> your theology says this!
see how and why they are grafted back in? is it because of a temple System in Jerusalem? a Millennial reign?
or is it when they turn to Christ and BELIEVE? when they turn to Christ the veil is removed....but is that what you Christian Zionists tell them? or do you tell them not to wory - they are still in a different Covenant with God?
oh and look at all the underlining about BOASTING.
why are you trying to make this about me supposedly BOASTING?
it's ME who continually pleads to tell the jews the TRUTH!
JEWS! PRESS IN NOW - THERE'S NO SECOND CHANCE IN A FANTASY MOSAIC SYSTEM while the good christian zionists who lied to you are floating around having been raptured!
why don't you make it about your delusion that there is anything other than One New Covenant that all press into NOW?
and why do you always skip over the IN PART bit?
you can underline and bold the wise in your own conceits and boasting all you want to - i tell the jews the TRUTH....do you?
docuement for me when "the last gentile comes in"....is that when the rapture happens?
oh please.
it's really underhanded for you to unabashedly claim that i somehow REJOICE in people cut off through unbelief. that's actually disgraceful and i reject it.
things like your pretrib dispensational theology (the jews don't need Jesus NOW) is the most damaging thing i can imagine.
and for you to suggest that people who may be at this moment be being taught to blaspheme and commit the unpardonable sin are to be saved anyway due to:
1) geneology (NO FAITH NEEDED HUH????)
2) Mosaic Law
speaks for itself. you're just continuing to feed the same stuff the Pharisees ruined their people with.
um.....ya...hello?
shall be.....future? as in WHEN RED?
when your mythological "Plan B church' has been raptured and is partying in Heaven while people are sacrificing animals in jerusalem?
or, do you agree with the crackpot theory that all the jews who ever lived regardless of anything else will be resurrected into another temporary flesh body to "get right with God" under some other system while glorified saints roam around this earth?
~ or does it mean future as in all through history and just prior to The Second Advent God will remove the veil from the full number of His election as they receive the truth and come into His Church according to Acts 2:38?
"And so all Israel shall be saved"
btw Red...how come you leave out these parts?
Romans 9
God’s Sovereign Choice
1I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers,a my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
see where it says Promise? THAT MEANS FAITH IN CHRIST....NOW!
but, you want to look and sound sooooooo much "for" Israel, you're willing to risk their salvation and consign them to some future Plan A restored (not real) when Plan B (the church is gone - not real either) because you will not preach the TRUE GOSPEL.
so please stop pretending you love the jews. you're hurting them.
and stop pretending i'm some lone nut who invented NO PRETRIB, NO MOSAIC WHATEVER MILLENNIUM, okay?
oh my gosh....
what to say?
what exactly can i say to someone who thinks there's a rapture of the church?
how can you know ANYTHING else?
please EXPLAIN CLEARLY what is happening on earth while you are raptured away that would change the following?
is God going to go back to Plan A when you're "gone" and cancel what Paul said below?
Galatians 4
Example of Hagar and Sarah
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23 But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,
“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”
28 Now you,f brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.
what about it? you say ALL ISRAEL will be saved. regardless. somehow.
and you HAVE to have all that dispensational stuff to make that work.
why don't you just preach them the Historic Gospel and tell them to look (like their forefathers did) for a New Heaven, New Earth, New Jerusalem....tell them come into the New Covenant, for THERE IS NO OTHER.
something to simple consider, for those who haven't committed everything they've got to dispensational millennial theology yet...if DISPY THEOLOGY IS WRONG, it's really wrong:
III. Two Passages Considered Crucial by Millennialists
A. ROMANS 11 (esp. v. 26: "And so all Israel will be saved")
1. EVEN IF A FUTURE CONVERSION OF ISRAEL PREDICTED, THIS IS NOT PROOF OF PREMILLENNIALISM
2. NOWHERE IN ROM 9-11 DOES PAUL SPEAK OF A RETURN OF THE JEWS TO THEIR LAND OR AN EARTHLY REIGN OF CHRIST FROM JERUSALEM
3. BUT DOES PAUL EVEN PREDICT A FUTURE CONVERSION OF NATIONAL ISRAEL?
a. THE CONTEXT OF ROM 9-11: Paul is wrestling with the issue of how the Messiah, foreseen in the OT as a great blessing to the Jews, could have been rejected by them.
b. ROM 9:1-5 ACKNOWLEDGES THAT ISRAEL WAS CHOSEN BY GOD AND POSSESSED THE HIGHEST SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS
c. ROM 9:6-7 REJECTS THE FALSE IMPLICATION THAT GOD HAS BEEN UNTRUE TO HIS PURPOSE FOR ISRAEL. His explanation: not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
d. ROM 9:8 - 10:21: THERE FOLLOWS A SERIES OF ILLUSTRATIONS that "mere physical descent from Abraham did not guarantee the possession of the blessings promised to Abraham."
(1) Ishmael (9:8-9)
(2) Esau (9:10-18)
(3) In 9:24-26, Paul recalls that God told Hosea that He would choose others who were not his people to be "my people." They would be called "sons of the living God." (Hosea 2:23, 1:10)
(4) In 29:27-29 he cites Isaiah 29:16 and 45:9 as evidence that not all of Israel would be saved, but only a remnant.
(5) In 10:19 he cites Deut 32:21 as evidence that God would make Israel envious "by those who are not a nation." (6) In 10:20-21 he cites Is 65:1-2 in defense of God’s present choice of the Gentiles.
e. ROM 11:1-10 REAFFIRMS THAT GOD HAS NOT REJECTED HIS PEOPLE: A BELIEVING REMNANT REMAINS
(1) Paul cites himself as an example of a believing Jew (11:1)
(2) Israel’s situation is no different than in Elijah’s day when a remnant was chosen. (3) UPSHOT: GOD HAS BEEN TRUE TO HIS PURPOSE IN ELECTION, FOR ELECTION IS NOT COEXTENSIVE WITH THE WHOLE NATION. (Rom 11:7)
f. ROM 11:11, TRADITIONALLY VIEWED AS A TURNING POINT IN PAUL’S ARGUMENT, IS NOT.
(1) Prior to 11:11, Paul stated that God’s rejection of the Jews is not total. After 11:11 he seems to say that neither is it final. Rom 11:12, 15, 25-26 foresee widespread conversion of Jews.
(2) YET THIS CONVERSION OF JEWS IS NOT FUTURE - IT IS CONTEMPORANEOUS WITH THAT OF THE GENTILES, AND WILL BE TO THE END
(a) "Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you." (11:31)
(b) I.e., Paul conceives of the Jews’ conversion occurring in the present as a result of the Gentiles’ conversion, which incites them to envy. Cf. 10:19. (c) While this did not happen in Paul’s day, the process of Gentile conversion and Jewish response will continue until "the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved" (11:25-26)
(3) CONCLUSION: WHEN PAUL TALKS ABOUT THE CONVERSION OF ISRAEL, HE IS NOT SPEAKING OF A FUTURE CONVERSION AFTER THAT OF THE GENTILES, BUT A PRESENT ONE IN RESPONSE TO THE GENTILES.
III. Two Passages Considered Crucial by Millennialists
A. ROMANS 11 (esp. v. 26: "And so all Israel will be saved")
1. EVEN IF A FUTURE CONVERSION OF ISRAEL PREDICTED, THIS IS NOT PROOF OF PREMILLENNIALISM
2. NOWHERE IN ROM 9-11 DOES PAUL SPEAK OF A RETURN OF THE JEWS TO THEIR LAND OR AN EARTHLY REIGN OF CHRIST FROM JERUSALEM
3. BUT DOES PAUL EVEN PREDICT A FUTURE CONVERSION OF NATIONAL ISRAEL?
a. THE CONTEXT OF ROM 9-11: Paul is wrestling with the issue of how the Messiah, foreseen in the OT as a great blessing to the Jews, could have been rejected by them.
b. ROM 9:1-5 ACKNOWLEDGES THAT ISRAEL WAS CHOSEN BY GOD AND POSSESSED THE HIGHEST SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS
c. ROM 9:6-7 REJECTS THE FALSE IMPLICATION THAT GOD HAS BEEN UNTRUE TO HIS PURPOSE FOR ISRAEL. His explanation: not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
d. ROM 9:8 - 10:21: THERE FOLLOWS A SERIES OF ILLUSTRATIONS that "mere physical descent from Abraham did not guarantee the possession of the blessings promised to Abraham."
(1) Ishmael (9:8-9)
(2) Esau (9:10-18)
(3) In 9:24-26, Paul recalls that God told Hosea that He would choose others who were not his people to be "my people." They would be called "sons of the living God." (Hosea 2:23, 1:10)
(4) In 29:27-29 he cites Isaiah 29:16 and 45:9 as evidence that not all of Israel would be saved, but only a remnant.
(5) In 10:19 he cites Deut 32:21 as evidence that God would make Israel envious "by those who are not a nation." (6) In 10:20-21 he cites Is 65:1-2 in defense of God’s present choice of the Gentiles.
e. ROM 11:1-10 REAFFIRMS THAT GOD HAS NOT REJECTED HIS PEOPLE: A BELIEVING REMNANT REMAINS
(1) Paul cites himself as an example of a believing Jew (11:1)
(2) Israel’s situation is no different than in Elijah’s day when a remnant was chosen. (3) UPSHOT: GOD HAS BEEN TRUE TO HIS PURPOSE IN ELECTION, FOR ELECTION IS NOT COEXTENSIVE WITH THE WHOLE NATION. (Rom 11:7)
f. ROM 11:11, TRADITIONALLY VIEWED AS A TURNING POINT IN PAUL’S ARGUMENT, IS NOT.
(1) Prior to 11:11, Paul stated that God’s rejection of the Jews is not total. After 11:11 he seems to say that neither is it final. Rom 11:12, 15, 25-26 foresee widespread conversion of Jews.
(2) YET THIS CONVERSION OF JEWS IS NOT FUTURE - IT IS CONTEMPORANEOUS WITH THAT OF THE GENTILES, AND WILL BE TO THE END
(a) "Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you." (11:31)
(b) I.e., Paul conceives of the Jews’ conversion occurring in the present as a result of the Gentiles’ conversion, which incites them to envy. Cf. 10:19. (c) While this did not happen in Paul’s day, the process of Gentile conversion and Jewish response will continue until "the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved" (11:25-26)
(3) CONCLUSION: WHEN PAUL TALKS ABOUT THE CONVERSION OF ISRAEL, HE IS NOT SPEAKING OF A FUTURE CONVERSION AFTER THAT OF THE GENTILES, BUT A PRESENT ONE IN RESPONSE TO THE GENTILES.