The Prophet John the Baptist’ Message

[jaybird88]

One would think all churches would be insisting on doing what Jesus commanded; go into all the nations teach and water baptize. Also, He said he who believes and is baptized shall be saved.

many today dont really care what Jesus taught or did, they would mucg rather follow mans theology than the example of Jesus and His teachings.
another problem we have today is many want to omit half the bible claiming its not "essential" for salvation. Jesus may have taught it, its in the bible, but its not a salvation issue so its ok to ignore it. its basically looking for shortcuts.

 

[Wansvic]

Not biblically possible. To receive the word of God and trust Christ as Savior is exactly what Jesus said we must do. Gods grace saves us not water baptism.

You can argue that mental ascent is not sufficient and you would be correct. Romans 10:9-10 explains that one must agree with all that the scripture says about Jesus. We are not required to follow all the ordinances of men and church organizations. You are just as married without a wedding ring as you are with a real expensive gold ring. Marriage is a covenant between the couple, each other and God. In fact clergy need not be there to officiate but because the government has encroached into marriage with tax codes and other laws of men it has become necessary to have state approval.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

There is a parallel between the natural and spiritual joining of a bride and bridegroom. That is the point.
The word is our guide not ordinances of government or church organizations. The word itself states that upon accepting Christ as ones personal savior they are to get water baptized thus acquiring the bridegroom's name and to receive the infilling of the Holy Ghost.

In the natural the bride acquires her new husband's name after accepting the marriage vows and consummation is required to make the union official.

 

[Wansvic]

many today dont really care what Jesus taught or did, they would mucg rather follow mans theology than the example of Jesus and His teachings.
another problem we have today is many want to omit half the bible claiming its not "essential" for salvation. Jesus may have taught it, its in the bible, but its not a salvation issue so its ok to ignore it. its basically looking for shortcuts.

Unfortunately this is true.

Jesus admonishes those who will listen; whoever hears my sayings and does them is wise:

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Matt 7:13-14

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock... Matt 7:22-24

 

[mailmandan]

Jesus was buried as part of His redemption plan to save us, so water baptism is part of the Gospel.

No, water baptism is not part of the Gospel, although it pictures the Gospel. The Gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) *To believe the Gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

Acts 15:7 - And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and BELIEVE. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *Not by water baptism.

1 Corinthians 1:21 - For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who BELIEVE.

 

[notuptome]

There is a parallel between the natural and spiritual joining of a bride and bridegroom. That is the point.
The word is our guide not ordinances of government or church organizations. The word itself states that upon accepting Christ as ones personal savior they are to get water baptized thus acquiring the bridegroom's name and to receive the infilling of the Holy Ghost.

In the natural the bride acquires her new husband's name after accepting the marriage vows and consummation is required to make the union official.

Exactly you are focused on the ring and have little if any interest in the real meaningful event of redemption. The quickening of a soul lost in sin is by grace through faith not water baptism.

Those who have Christ as Savior have the witness of the Holy Spirit with their spirit. They need and seek nothing in addition to that unseen yet very real witness.

What we do shows what we believe.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Wansvic]

Exactly you are focused on the ring and have little if any interest in the real meaningful event of redemption. The quickening of a soul lost in sin is by grace through faith not water baptism.

Those who have Christ as Savior have the witness of the Holy Spirit with their spirit. They need and seek nothing in addition to that unseen yet very real witness.

What we do shows what we believe.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You misunderstand. I know that without the sacrifice of Jesus nothing else matters. However, upon accepting Him as my savior the bible states clear instructions that are adhered to numerous times as a witness to new believers. Ignoring the instructions given is not wise for anyone.

 

[Macabeus]

There is a parallel between the natural and spiritual joining of a bride and bridegroom. That is the point.
The word is our guide not ordinances of government or church organizations. The word itself states that upon accepting Christ as ones personal savior they are to get water baptized thus acquiring the bridegroom's name and to receive the infilling of the Holy Ghost.

In the natural the bride acquires her new husband's name after accepting the marriage vows and consummation is required to make the union official.

Cornelius and his friends received the Holy Spririt before they were baptized.

 

[Macabeus]

Prior to John’s conception, which was miraculous in itself, an angel told his father Zacharias that his son would be:

Great in the sight of the Lord.
He would turn the Jews to the Lord their God.
He would make ready a people prepared for the Lord.


And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying:

Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;” Luke 1:67-69

John’s name was of utmost importance:
An angel told his father his son’s name would be John.

Due to his unbelief in the angel’s message he was struck dumb and was unable to speak until the day his son would receive his name on the day he was circumcised.

When they came to circumcise baby John they called his name Zacharias, meaning the Lord has remembered, but his mother intervened and said not so, his name is John. Those present thought it odd because they had no family members with the name John. Normally babies were named after a family member. They questioned Zacharias and he wrote “His name is John,” on a tablet. Immediately Zacharias’ tongue was loosed.

The name John means God graciously gives. Ask yourself what God-given message was professed by John the Baptist; faith in the coming messiah; Jesus Christ, and water baptism.

Consider, also, the following words spoken to Zacharias about his son:

“And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
To give knowledge of salvation unto his people BY the remission of their sins,
Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.´ Luke 1:76-79


John begins preaching about the coming messiah who will take away the sins of the world and water baptism for remission of those sins:

The Word of God came unto John the Baptist while he was in the wilderness. Notice John’s message was preached to those in the wilderness. The wilderness symbolizes the natural world wherein is spiritual darkness. Luke 3:2

John began preaching the need for water baptism for the remission of sin. (1st time remission of sin connected to water baptism) Luke 3:3 One sees the continuation of the message that sins are remitted in water baptism in Acts 2:38.

After Jesus secured salvation through His death, burial, and resurrection, all of mankind must step out in faith by being obedient to the Word. One element in the Word is everyone must be water baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The purpose of John's baptism was to prepare the people for the coming of Jesus and to reveal Jesus to the world. John 1:23 and John 1:31

 

[Macabeus]

Would you please share scripture concerning people that were saved without being water baptized after the New Testament dispensation began?

Those who have been saved need to be water baptized as it is a command of the Lord Jesus. But you don't need to be baptized BEFORE being saved. We are justified by faith, not water baptism.

 

[Macabeus]

The purpose of John's baptism was to prepare the people for the coming of Jesus and to reveal Jesus to the world. John 1:23 and John 1:31

Correction...John's baptism was to prepare the people for the coming of Jesus and to reveal Jesus to the people of Israel.

 

[Wansvic]

Cornelius and his friends received the Holy Spririt before they were baptized.

The point is everyone is commanded to obey the instructions given. All are to repent and be water baptized in Jesus' name. God provides the infilling of the Holy Ghost. I don't see any significance in the sequence of the fulfillment of the components prescribed. What is consistent in the word is that all things were commanded and obeyed. At no point is it recorded that mankind's obligation changes.

 

[Wansvic]

The purpose of John's baptism was to prepare the people for the coming of Jesus and to reveal Jesus to the world. John 1:23 and John 1:31

How did John prepare the people. John professed the need for all to submit to the God-given baptism of repentance for the remission of sin in anticipation of Messiah Jesus' arrival.

After Jesus death, burial, and resurrection it was necessary for all believers to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Those who had submitted to John's water baptism had to be re-baptized as well. (Acts 9:3-5)

"...the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight." Luke 3:2-4

 

[Wansvic]

Those who have been saved need to be water baptized as it is a command of the Lord Jesus. But you don't need to be baptized BEFORE being saved. We are justified by faith, not water baptism.

The word expresses everyone must be water baptized and receive the infilling of the Holy Ghost. These instructions parallel what Jesus said to Nicodemus.

I believe the thing people miss is the fact that Jesus said to be reborn of water and Spirit. Being born does not entail the creation process per se. Birth refers to coming forth after one has been created. Example: God creates each of us in our mother's womb. The birthing process is the coming forth out of the water one has been immersed in. Life after exiting the waters of the womb will not be maintained if the created baby does not receive the infiltration of surrounding air.

God's natural birth process is a beautiful picture of the spiritual rebirth process that God designed and is seen in His word. Both the natural and spiritual birth processes require water and Spirit. To understand and partake of what God has provided in no way takes away from Him as our savior.

“Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? (come back out of the womb)

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:4-7

 

[Nehemiah6]

What is consistent in the word is that all things were commanded and obeyed.

This is true, but you have misunderstood the meaning of water baptism. It is indeed commanded, but that is only AFTER a person is saved. You can go right through the book of Acts for confirmation.

 

[Macabeus]

The word expresses everyone must be water baptized and receive the infilling of the Holy Ghost. These instructions parallel what Jesus said to Nicodemus.

I believe the thing people miss is the fact that Jesus said to be reborn of water and Spirit. Being born does not entail the creation process per se. Birth refers to coming forth after one has been created. Example: God creates each of us in our mother's womb. The birthing process is the coming forth out of the water one has been immersed in. Life after exiting the waters of the womb will not be maintained if the created baby does not receive the infiltration of surrounding air.

God's natural birth process is a beautiful picture of the spiritual rebirth process that God designed and is seen in His word. Both the natural and spiritual birth processes require water and Spirit. To understand and partake of what God has provided in no way takes away from Him as our savior.

“Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? (come back out of the womb)

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:4-7

One legitimate interpretation is born of water is physical birth and born of Spirit is new birth. Especially, since in context, Jesus is talking about and contrasting born of flesh and born of Spirit.

I am not dogmatic on this interpretation though, just suggesting it as a possible interpretation to consider.

 

[Macabeus]

How did John prepare the people. John professed the need for all to submit to the God-given baptism of repentance for the remission of sin in anticipation of Messiah Jesus' arrival.

After Jesus death, burial, and resurrection it was necessary for all believers to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Those who had submitted to John's water baptism had to be re-baptized as well. (Acts 9:3-5)

"...the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight." Luke 3:2-4

He prepared the people in the manner foretold by the prophet Zechariah

 

[Wansvic]

One legitimate interpretation is born of water is physical birth and born of Spirit is new birth. Especially, since in context, Jesus is talking about and contrasting born of flesh and born of Spirit.

I am not dogmatic on this interpretation though, just suggesting it as a possible interpretation to consider.

I have contemplated the possibility of water in the scripture being natural birth. However, it would seem that being born is a mute point.

Also, the word states that one can understand Spiritual truth by looking at how God designed things in the natural realm. I can only conclude in evaluating the similarities of natural and Spiritual birth that water in the context refers to coming out of the waters of baptism.

 

[Macabeus]

I have contemplated the possibility of water in the scripture being natural birth. However, it would seem that being born is a mute point.

Also, the word states that one can understand Spiritual truth by looking at how God designed things in the natural realm. I can only conclude in evaluating the similarities of natural and Spiritual birth that water in the context refers to coming out of the waters of baptism.

OK, you are entitled to your view. I would only add that the primary purpose of John's coming was two fold in this way. He came to prepare the people for Jesus by calling them to repentance and he came to present Jesus to the people. Baptism was a mean to both of these ends. In baptism, the people PUBLICLY repented, and Jesus was publically presented.

I think repentance is the primary focus in John's ministry and baptism is a secondary focus as a means to that end.

I do believe that Christians need to obey the Lord in baptism, just as we need to obey Him in all things. It is enough to say that Jesus commanded baptism. But in cases like a soldier getting saved on a battlefield and praying a sincere prayer of faith before he died, or a death bed conversion that does not include baptism would exclude anyone from salvation.

And I do believe that there are instances of people being converted before baptism. Like Cornelius, and I also believe and know that I was converted before I was baptized, but I was baptized very soon after my conversion.

 

[Wansvic]

OK, you are entitled to your view. I would only add that the primary purpose of John's coming was two fold in this way. He came to prepare the people for Jesus by calling them to repentance and he came to present Jesus to the people. Baptism was a mean to both of these ends. In baptism, the people PUBLICLY repented, and Jesus was publically presented.

I think repentance is the primary focus in John's ministry and baptism is a secondary focus as a means to that end.

I do believe that Christians need to obey the Lord in baptism, just as we need to obey Him in all things. It is enough to say that Jesus commanded baptism. But in cases like a soldier getting saved on a battlefield and praying a sincere prayer of faith before he died, or a death bed conversion that does not include baptism would exclude anyone from salvation.

And I do believe that there are instances of people being converted before baptism. Like Cornelius, and I also believe and know that I was converted before I was baptized, but I was baptized very soon after my conversion.

The reason I don't waver in this is because the scriptures so clearly express the need. (2 Timothy 3:16) Experiences as those you mention are just not recorded in the word. Some would argue that the thief on the cross is an example. But upon rightly dividing the word it is clear that the thief died in the dispensation prior to the institution of the rebirth experience provided to the NT church.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

there are many archaeological examples of mikvehs. if you or i, as a gentile, were to become a proselyte Jew today, we would be baptized into Judaism in a mikveh. rabbinical writings describe immersion in water as being used for ritual purification, not only of priests involved in their duties, but for the ceremonial uncleanness of a woman after childbirth, for example. as far as i know, it's not clear exactly when their use came into practice in Judaism, but it is either centuries before John the Baptist or not very long afterward.

i heard as recently as last week a Christian, apparently an elder in his church, say that John introduced the idea of baptism and that the history shows clearly the Jews would have been shocked and disgusted by the practice. i do not see that the facts bear out what this man said, tho . . ? any Jewish reference one looks into will cite washings in the Law of Moses and explain that it has always been the practice to clean both themselves and objects ceremonially with water, both through immersion and sprinkling.

that's right

people need to study the historical record

making statements that John started baptism bolsters the erroneous belief that water baptism removes sin as Wansvic is actually teaching

it's just more twisting to align with an already bogus belief