Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

I still don't get it.
I really gets me down that I don't get it.
It's the Romans 7? Is this about it?

Are we talking dual nature here?

I know the words used which is translated as nature and flesh (in different bibles) is the Greek word Sarx which is basically flesh.

I relate to Paul in Romans 7.
But really don't get the flesh bit.

For me if I'm honest when I sin I think it's my old nature that mainfests itself in the flesh and yet I hate it, which is my new nature.

So I suppose I'm entranched in thinking that I have a dual nature whilst on earth.

It really does my head in.
I'm at the point of giving up trying to get it, been like that for years but every time it comes up it grabs my attention.

@dcontroversal please do not read the above. I can see you with your head in your hands and shaking it, and then reaching out to grab me by shirt collar and shout "What part of this do you not get?

Oops too late you have already read it.
I'm going into hiding.
Only joking bro, I love my brother from another mother.

Right who wants to play hide and seek.
I'll hide and you seek.

This is the way I understand it

The flesh wants to serve self (thats why it is called the flesh, it is self seeking) Where the spirit wants to serve God and others.

The flesh is still active, it has just lost its power. The struggle is real. As you show with romans 7. Before we were saved, the flesh ruled our lives. Today it does not have to

In fact, we have power to over come. But we stull sometimes fall the the flesh. And put our needs above others, and out of this comes sin. We can even do morally good things out of the flesh, and in doing so those morrally good things are in reality sin, because they came from the flesh (self seeking) and not in the spirit (serving others)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So when I sin it's the old nature sinning and not my new nature?

That's where I struggle.

When you sin, You are seeking to serve self (the flesh)

When you should have been focused on the spirit (serving others)

Its hard to grasp. People think of the word sin they think law or commands. It is far deeper than this, Thats why most do not get it.

 

[VCO]

who is John McArthur see his name here regualr

He is the most famous of the conservative evangelical style of Bible Teachers in the USA, famous for his BOLD stance on SCRIPTURES. Two of those FAMOUS ISSUES that have brought him SEVERE Criticism from the Charismatics and Pentecostals, BUT I AGREE WITH HIM 100% on both issues. One his book called the CHARISMATICS, in that book He proves that the Modern Day TONGUES, is Nothing like what the Apostles did on the Day of Pentecost, and is obviously a Counterfeit. Another issue HE was Severe Criticized that I stated on an interview, that he believes that people can repent of the sin of accepting the Mark of the Beast. His defense of that statement; IS CHRIST SAID THERE IS ONLY ONE UNFORGIVABLE SIN, and to make that an unforgivable SIN, would make TWO Unforgivable SINS. I will post an interview with a BIBLE TEACHER, that totally agrees with Dr. John MacArthur, below. I was discipled by him via his "GRACE TO YOU", Radio Ministry. Here this will give you his Credentials:

THE FOLLOWING BELOW TYPED MESSAGE AT THE BEGINNING AND END, WAS PUBLISHED BY A SEVERE CRITIC OF DR. JOHN MACARTHUR, HOWEVER, IT CAME ACROSS AS PRO - DR. JOHN MACARTHUR; IF YOU LISTEN TO BOTH OF THOSE BIBLE TEACHERS RESPONSES. KEEP IN MIND:

Mark 3:28-29 (NJB)
28 ‘In truth I tell you, all human sins will be forgiven, and all the blasphemies ever uttered;
29 but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin.'

That is taking the info about CHRIST, that the HOLY SPIRIT is trying to apply to your heart, REJECTING IT, as permanently MADE UP, OR DONE BY THE POWER OF THE DEVIL.

That is totally different than the Mark of the BEAST, which is WILLING receiving the MARK as a sign that I agree with the Antichrist. Therefore those who are FORCED to take the MARK, or Tricked into taking the MARK, would be REPENTABLE.

Dr. John MacArthur Credentials:

 

[VCO]

HERE IS HIS CREDENTIALS. I HIT POST by mistake, sorry.

John MacArthur is the pastor-teacher of Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California, as well as an author, conference speaker, president of The Master’s University and Seminary, and featured teacher with the Grace to You media ministry.

In 1969, after graduating from Talbot Theological Seminary, John came to Grace Community Church. The emphasis of his pulpit ministry is the careful study and verse-by-verse exposition of the Bible, with special attention devoted to the historical and grammatical background behind each passage. Under John’s leadership, Grace Community Church's two morning worship services fill the 3,500-seat auditorium to capacity. Several thousand members participate every week in dozens of fellowship groups and training programs, most led by lay leaders and each dedicated to equipping members for ministry on local, national, and international levels.

In 1985, John became president of The Master's College (formerly Los Angeles Baptist College, now the Master's University), an accredited, four-year liberal arts Christian college in Santa Clarita, California. In 1986, John founded The Master's Seminary, a graduate school dedicated to training men for full-time pastoral roles and missionary work.

John is also president and featured teacher with Grace to You. Founded in 1969, Grace to You is the nonprofit organization responsible for developing, producing, and distributing John’s books, audio resources, and the “Grace to You” radio and television programs. “Grace to You” radio airs more than 1,000 times daily throughout the English-speaking world, reaching major population centers with biblical truth. It also airs nearly 1,000 times daily in Spanish, reaching 23 countries across Europe and Latin America. “Grace to You” television airs weekly on DirecTV in the United States, and is available for free on the Internet worldwide. All 3,000 of John’s sermons, spanning more than four decades of ministry, are available for free on this website.

Since completing his first best-selling book, The Gospel According to Jesus, in 1988, John has written nearly 400 books and Study Guides, including Our Sufficiency in Christ, Strange Fire, Ashamed of the Gospel, The Murder of Jesus, The Prodigal Son, Twelve Ordinary Men, The Truth War, The Jesus You Can’t Ignore, Slave, One Perfect Life, and The MacArthur New Testament Commentary series. John's titles have been translated into more than two dozen languages. The MacArthur Study Bible, the cornerstone resource of his ministry, is available in English (NKJ, NAS, and ESV), Spanish, Russian, German, French, Portuguese, Italian, Arabic, and Chinese.

In 2015 The MacArthur New Testament Commentary series was completed. In its thirty-three volumes, John takes you detail by detail, verse by verse, through the entire New Testament.

John and his wife, Patricia, live in Southern California and have four married children: Matt, Marcy, Mark, and Melinda. They also enjoy the enthusiastic company of their fifteen grandchildren.

 

[star]

Trust more and more is yielding more and more to Our Lord's will and less and less to our own. The Mind of Christ.

 

[BillG]

When you sin, You are seeking to serve self (the flesh)

When you should have been focused on the spirit (serving others)

Its hard to grasp. People think of the word sin they think law or commands. It is far deeper than this, Thats why most do not get it.

Even if you do not to sin but do?
My experience would be severe gambling problem that I had for 3 decades.
Is that serving the flesh?

I'm not so sure as it was something I hated.
Despite my despairs and prayers, tears and depression.
Getting to point of committing suicide.
Is that not wanting to not serve the flesh?

Things like this are not one off things, but the effect of a cause.
If I'm right then the cause needs to dealt with.
If not then it's a constant struggle.

We could even pose the question.

Is working to be saved in the same category?

 

[theanointedwinner]

Bill gee

How are you?

 

[BillG]

Seems you have three groups

The group that wishes to judge everyone and send them to hell if they do nto stop particular sins

The group that is afraid to offend anyone, so they are all inclusive

And the group that gets caught in the middle. Which as Christ said, does not judge people. But knows the most important thing is to get them the gospel so they can be saved, THEN allow the HS to work in them to change their lives.

I think I fall into group 2 &3.

I do not wish to offend anyone offensively but lovingly.
This leads me into group 3 if people in group 2 wish to discuss.
As for people who do not know Jesus but want to I'm in group 3.
With either we need to be prepared and walk the walk of discipleship.

With regards to group 1.
I have come to the realisation that there is no point discussing.
Will give it a go.
Taken me a long time but I now shake the dust off my feet sooner rather than later.
Even though it breaks my heart.
I think Jesus heart was broken for the religious people.

 

[BillG]

Bill gee

How are you?

Yeh I'm ok.

How is you doing?
What's going on with you?

 

[theanointedwinner]

all I can tell it's, everyone is talking about sanctification in the not by works thread, and I am clueless as to what people are saying in the not by works thread

Can someone condense it for me what people here are trying to say?

 

[preacher4truth]

As it pertains to this particular discussion, "not by works",

John MacArthur's name comes up often when discussing "Lordship salvation" and "Free grace".
Faith plus works or faith alone.

False dichotomy. Lordship salvation (so-called) is not "faith plus works."

 

[Macabeus]

You did not list to me UP TILL NOW, only those who believe that Works Follow Salvation, meant it Takes WORKS to accomplish SALVATION, a FALSE THEOLOGY. I understood BOTH OF YOU, were saying the same thing. BUT WE MIS-UNDERSTOOD YOU. Even I when you first came on this thread, I looked at your posts and said to myself, "OH HEAR WE GO AGAIN." So I must apologize to You. I wonder HOW many other get the Wrong Idea, when someone comes on board with a different meaning to TERMS, we use. If we all used the Dictionary of Common Christian Terms, maybe we could avoid awkward mis-understandings. Again, Forgive us for not understanding what was in your mind.

NO, Works follow salvation does not mean it takes works to accomplish salvation...and yes, works to accomplish salvation is a false theology. As I have stated many times, SALVATION IS FULLY ACCOMPLISHED, and then works follow from love and gratitude. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

 

[Macabeus]

@Macabeus what is at the center of this diagreement is two opposing doctrines.

One that John MacArthur teaches of one nature being transformed into the image of Christ.

And the other of the dual nature.

For those who follow the "one nature" doctrine evidence of works and obedience are essential because the believer only has one nature, many follow this teaching on this thread who still believe works are not part of salvation. In this doctrine people will state we are obligated to put works in there somewhere

In this area, I do believe scripture makes it abundantly clear that there are two natures in the born again believer, works will vary depending on the person and how willingly they walk in the Spirit....you do realize this does not mean they are ardent sinners it means they do not put themselves under grace, they are being good in the power of their own flesh.

I think that this is where the dispute can be resolved.

Here I can do it..... Scripture teaches we have two natures read Romans.

Okay all done

I do not agree with Mcarthur if he only believes in one nature. I do not get my theology from John Mcarthur, I get it from the Bible. SO much so that I did not know this about him. And it doesn't matter. Because you can look all you want. The two nature doctrine are NOT mentioned in 1 John 3, which is what we have been talking about.

 

[Macabeus]

this may surprise you, but I really do not care that much about what some faceless person on the internet , who I will most likely never meet, has to say about me, and no, I do not remember exactly what posts I like. ( I do not dislike or x posts, I personally think that is silly, we ain't passing notes like back in pre-internet middle school .).

now, I do agree with vco, there seems to be massive mis-understanding about what you say. it is made far worse by your way overblown tirades about decon, at times, me and others .

so, I am going to do you like I did f.h.s ( peterjens ) and not just interact with you anymore. you do seem to sincerely seem to believe that we are saved by grace apart from works, but at times you seem to wobble on this, lean toward works salvation. this is going to always lead to these massive mis-understandings, especially since you go on these long vendetta tirades.

Why did YOU like the post WHEN he said the same thing I AM SAYING, and then call me a liar.

He said " its impossible for a true believer not to work. There is no must about it. It is their new nature. "

AND YOU HIT THE AGREE BUTTON. Go back and follow the link and see.

Did you change your mind now?

 

[Macabeus]

Does not matter at the end of the day...the question is both rhetorical and moot......it is faith that saves a man eternally with or without works

The question "if a person is saved 50 years without working, is he saved" is moot. Because the Bible does not teach such an hypothesis.

 

[Macabeus]

this may surprise you, but I really do not care that much about what some faceless person on the internet , who I will most likely never meet, has to say about me, and no, I do not remember exactly what posts I like. ( I do not dislike or x posts, I personally think that is silly, we ain't passing notes like back in pre-internet middle school .).

now, I do agree with vco, there seems to be massive mis-understanding about what you say. it is made far worse by your way overblown tirades about decon, at times, me and others .

so, I am going to do you like I did f.h.s ( peterjens ) and not just interact with you anymore. you do seem to sincerely seem to believe that we are saved by grace apart from works, but at times you seem to wobble on this, lean toward works salvation. this is going to always lead to these massive mis-understandings, especially since you go on these long vendetta tirades.

DC asks if it is possible for a christian to be saved for 50 years and do no good works AFTER he liked a post that said it is impossible for a true believer not to work. See RED PORTION IN QUOTE ABOVE.

As I believe Scripture states,

Eph 2 10, We were created (anew) for good wrks.

In our new nature, Works are the norm and we are fed off of those works. Sin is like poison, and it damages us, Not like when we were of the world when the opposite was truth, Its why a child of God can not continue to live as he always did, because he could not handle it. Sin does not bring the same joy or confort. It brings pain and suffering (then add to that chastening from God)

Its why I laugh at those who say we MUST work to be saved, its impossible for a true believer not to work. There is no must about it. It is their new nature.

ALL (6) POSITIVE (6)

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        dcontroversal
        Jun 7, 2019
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        Rosemaryx
        Jun 7, 2019
     6. As I believe Scripture states,

 

[Macabeus]

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.


But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works.

Yes, and then after justification, we live our lives to God out of love and gratitude, BECAUSE OF OUR NEW NATURE. Not perfectly, but there should be SOME love and gratitude, and concern about other people IF WE ARE BORN OF GOD>

Descriptive of truly regenerate, NOT prescriptive of how to be saved or stay saved. Just a statement of fact about people who have been born of God.

 

[VCO]

I do not agree with Mcarthur if he only believes in one nature. I do not get my theology from John Mcarthur, I get it from the Bible. SO much so that I did not know this about him. And it doesn't matter. Because you can look all you want. The two nature doctrine are NOT mentioned in 1 John 3, which is what we have been talking about.

Please explain what you mean by:

One Nature Doctrine.

AND

Two Nature Doctrine.

 

[Macabeus]

Please explain what you mean by:

One Nature Doctrine.

AND

Two Nature Doctrine.

When a believer is born of God, he or she receives a New nature. But they still have to put off the old man. That is why the scripture says "put off the old man...put on the new." Nature is a collection of attributes.

 

[Macabeus]

Of course.....what I love are the deceivers that red x biblical truths and or plain factual truths......like rat circus......go look at the thread about is the bible the word of GOD.......red x'ing my stance against ISLAM while by default supporting ISLAM......

Do you still agree with this quote, DC? Because this is even stronger than what I have been saying.

eternally-gratefull said:
As I believe Scripture states,

Eph 2 10, We were created (anew) for good wrks.

In our new nature, Works are the norm and we are fed off of those works. Sin is like poison, and it damages us, Not like when we were of the world when the opposite was truth, Its why a child of God can not continue to live as he always did, because he could not handle it. Sin does not bring the same joy or confort. It brings pain and suffering (then add to that chastening from God)

Its why I laugh at those who say we MUST work to be saved, its impossible for a true believer not to work. There is no must about it. It is their new nature.


ALL (6) POSITIVE (6)

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