Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[SimpleGardner]

My friend gave away almost everything he had because he wanted "to follow Jesus". But he attempted to follow the wrong Jesus. We are to follow the resurrected Christ who spoke to us through Paul, not the earthly Jesus who preached the ultimate version of the Law of Moses to the Jews.

In the company where we worked many co-workers became very interested in the Bible and were already attending services as a result of our conversion, but when my friend pointed out to them that it was very hard "to follow Jesus" (sell all you have and give the money ...) ALL of them turned away from the faith.

That's why we must teach the exact truth about the Christian doctrine, not plus or minus anything. Salvation is not as hard as a camel going through the eye of a needle, but we can't receive it hands down, either. Salvation, according to the resurrected Christ (Paul's teachings), is absolutely feasible and God wants all of us to be saved.

Thanks and Greetings Marcelo,

I appreciate you sharing your experiences.

I know that must have been discouraging.

There is so much to see in what happened.

I am not saying what your friend did by telling everyone what to do was right. I do not know if he was led by the Holy Spirit. If not there is something to be said for leading men to the anointing with the Holy Spirit where you can be sure they will be led into "all Truth"

To try to lead new converts places where the Holy Spirit has not prepared their hearts is problematic. Was your friend correct is what he personally did? Depends. Why did he do it makes all the difference. I would not personally tell anyone to do so without a word of knowledge from the Holy Spirit.

I do not think we agree completely on our doctrines, but then again each man walks with Yahshua and our Heavenly Father according to how they commit their hearts to that relationship as led by the Holy Spirit. It may not be nearly as much as "what" we believe as where we are in our beliefs. We were once in total darkness until God called us to repentance and the Justification through Yahshua. What follows that is where our participation is paramount in finding our way to the anointing of the Holy Spirit so that we might walk in the "newness of life" For here it moves at the pace of our commitment. Many stop at the start (not saying you) satisfied with justification, but the real miraculous life begins again after the anointing with the Holy Spirit.

If a man has any sincere questions about this part of the walk he should petition God sincerely;

Php 4:6-7 NIV Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. (7) And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

Just as it was then, wait for it, seek it with all your heart. The Holy Spirit is the Key to all that plagues every beleiver! It is a absolute necessity! You don't have to speak in tongues, we should all just desire the transfromative work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts

 

[Magenta]

 

[Zappa]

I'm not a law-keeper, but I still haven't found a single piece of evidence -- in the Gospels -- that Jesus ever told us to stop keeping the Law. Should we rely solely on what Paul said?

Marcelo, I believe the gospels contain words such as "Jesus came to fulfill the law." And in my humble opinion, when Christ was on the cross and He uttered "It is finished," I believe this could be interpreted as His completed work and doing away with the law. Also, God's tearing of the veil inside the temple is symbolic of removing what separates us from our Creator.

 

[SimpleGardner]

Excellent. I was going to ask GB who he thought the judaizers were that he was talking to lol.

Your post has been my experience too SG. The only way I could continue to accept the "grace only, do nothing" doctrine was by NOT studying the scriptures. Every time I did it conflicted with the "do nothing" doctrine at every turn more and more. I especially had to stop reading Christ's words if I was supposed to "do nothing".

For instance, recall the parable of the talents. First, Christ parables usually begin with "the kingdom of heaven is like...", so right there it tells me this is upon His return (i.e. second coming).

As I remember the parable, the king GIFTED three people with treasure.

...so they initially did NOTHING to earn their gift. This is critical.

Then, after receipt of the gift, two of the three servants WORKED their gift; USED the gift, took action and made it grow.

...but one servant, afraid to LOSE the gift they were given, DID NOTHING with it. He literally buried it.

When the king returned he rewarded the two servants who worked their gift, but took away the gift from the one who did nothing with it, and did so in anger.

The gift was exactly the same quantity as when the king gave it before returning. No growth.

---

Grace is called a gift from the living God. It's quite possibly the most valuable gift we can receive prior to our immortal bodies. More valuable than gold. And it was given to us while the king is away.

We did NOTHING to earn this gift, and could do nothing.

...And all throughout the "NT" letters believers are encouraged to GROW their grace and knowledge of Christ.

"May you grow in grace."

"Grow in grace."

Very very similar to the talent of gold represented in the parable.

So I had a doctrine telling me to do nothing with this gift for fear of losing it, while Christ and the apostles teach believers to put forth effort and grow this gift.


In the end I had to forsake the "do nothing" doctrine and then commit to understanding how to grow the gift.

I don't want to be known as a wicked, lazy servant.

Greetings Y,

I appreciate you sharing that, Makes perfect sense to me.

There is so much to know and walk in that a narrowly defined doctrine such as Grace only" locks away from the earnest believer. It's like a prison cell for those who would be free.

I remain grateful for the persistent and loving guidance that the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit never ceased to bring to me when I researched diligently the doctrine of Grace only. I remember finding myself being able to agree whole heartedly with the doctrine as long as I stayed within a narrow band of Bible verses, but my experiences were/are like yours; once I read on it quickly begins to loose its light and the verses used to support it took on the meaning they were written to convey. To accept the Grace only doctrine you even have to disregard 50% of the epistles of Paul!

No doubt, having others to share experiences in doctrine and walk experiences is lovely, but I have had to learn over and over that my walk is between Him and me. Do I learn from others, Yes!, Do I find fellowship, Yes! But as written;

1Jn 2:27 NIV As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.
In my own walk I have gone places where other men would not follow. It has been these places that I found new dimensions to my walk that I had no idea existed. More assurances through deeper fellowship, richer meanings to the simpler things. If I had been prone to pulling a doctrinal line or adherence to the "group" rather than the call of the Holy Spirit" I would have missed the opportunity to serve God in newer deeper ways.

These new dimensions are nothing to brag about since they are basically foolishness to most people. So they are between My Creator and me.

I am pretty sure you know what I am speaking of and more and Bless Our King and Redeemer for the opportunities He has given us to "Walk" with Him!

SG

 

[gb9]

Excellent. I was going to ask GB who he thought the judaizers were that he was talking to lol.

Your post has been my experience too SG. The only way I could continue to accept the "grace only, do nothing" doctrine was by NOT studying the scriptures. Every time I did it conflicted with the "do nothing" doctrine at every turn more and more. I especially had to stop reading Christ's words if I was supposed to "do nothing".

For instance, recall the parable of the talents. First, Christ parables usually begin with "the kingdom of heaven is like...", so right there it tells me this is upon His return (i.e. second coming).

As I remember the parable, the king GIFTED three people with treasure.

...so they initially did NOTHING to earn their gift. This is critical.

Then, after receipt of the gift, two of the three servants WORKED their gift; USED the gift, took action and made it grow.

...but one servant, afraid to LOSE the gift they were given, DID NOTHING with it. He literally buried it.

When the king returned he rewarded the two servants who worked their gift, but took away the gift from the one who did nothing with it, and did so in anger.

The gift was exactly the same quantity as when the king gave it before returning. No growth.

---

Grace is called a gift from the living God. It's quite possibly the most valuable gift we can receive prior to our immortal bodies. More valuable than gold. And it was given to us while the king is away.

We did NOTHING to earn this gift, and could do nothing.

...And all throughout the "NT" letters believers are encouraged to GROW their grace and knowledge of Christ.

"May you grow in grace."

"Grow in grace."

Very very similar to the talent of gold represented in the parable.

So I had a doctrine telling me to do nothing with this gift for fear of losing it, while Christ and the apostles teach believers to put forth effort and grow this gift.


In the end I had to forsake the "do nothing" doctrine and then commit to understanding how to grow the gift.

I don't want to be known as a wicked, lazy servant.

you actually said that the 10 Commandments were not part of the Mosaic Covenant. that has to be the most outrageous lie I have heard, so I could really care less about your opinions.

and, just so you know, if you want to know what is a judeaizer is, look in a mirror and speak you " theology " outloud. you will not only see one, but hear one as well.

 

[Whispered]

“For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome” The Book of 1st John chapter 5 verse 3.

The ten commandments preceded Sinai. That is why we read the first word in the third command as, remember.

Be Subject to Government
13 Every [a]person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except [b]from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore [c]whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for [d]good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. 5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves [e]his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love [f]does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

11 Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now [g]salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. 12 The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us [h]behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.

Footnotes

1. Romans 13:1 Or soul
2. Romans 13:1 Lit by
3. Romans 13:2 Lit he who
4. Romans 13:3 Lit good work
5. Romans 13:8 Lit the other
6. Romans 13:10 Lit works no evil
7. Romans 13:11 Or our salvation is nearer than when
8. Romans 13:13 Lit walk

 

[gb9]

“For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome” The Book of 1st John chapter 5 verse 3.

The ten commandments preceded Sinai. That is why we read the first word in the third command as, remember.

Be Subject to Government
13 Every [a]person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except [b]from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore [c]whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for [d]good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. 5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves [e]his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love [f]does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

11 Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now [g]salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. 12 The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us [h]behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.

Footnotes

1. Romans 13:1 Or soul
2. Romans 13:1 Lit by
3. Romans 13:2 Lit he who
4. Romans 13:3 Lit good work
5. Romans 13:8 Lit the other
6. Romans 13:10 Lit works no evil
7. Romans 13:11 Or our salvation is nearer than when
8. Romans 13:13 Lit walk

* except the same man in the same letter ( not a book ) said the Commands are to " believe in the name of the Son, and love one another". no Torah, no Sabbath.

so, just another fake judeaizer talking point blown to pieces.

 

[wokinluv]

The question is not "Are the 10 commandments good".

The 10 commandments are good, but YOU are not.

The 10 commandments will ALWAYS show your sin. And in so doing show your death and condemnation.


So there is a solution for this that GOD has made for us. Instead of working at the 10 commandments and pretending to each other that this work makes you righteous before God, God has made a way for REAL Righteousness through Him.

Romans 9:30-32
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


I suppose for people who are adamant that it is their own work and understanding at the 10 commandments that makes them righteous they CAN'T see this simplicity that is in scripture.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.


Does any of this make void the intent of the 10 commandments? No.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

It is our faith in Christ that establishes the intent of the 10 comman
dments, NOT our work and understanding of them.

What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Romans 3:3

Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up. Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor? James 4:10-12

Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”
(Matthew 19:16-17,26 & 11:28-30)

WITH God nothing is impossible.

Who will obey the commandments and who gives the commands? Will the Lord say to His servant "I have created you so that I can serve you, let me do for you what I have commanded you to do because I love you"?

Why can't we obey Him and keep His commandments if He is the one working in us (as the Lawgiver and Lord whose work is to implement and command us to obey and help us to meet the reqirements)(1Corinthians 12:4-6, Romans 8:1-17, Philippians 2:13) and with us?(1Corinthians 3:9, 2Corinthians 6:1, John 4:36)

But what does the scriptures say?

The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!” He replied, “If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it will obey you. “Suppose one of you had a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, ‘Come along now and sit down to eat’? Would he not rather say, ‘Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink’? Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’” Luke 17:6-10

Aren't these Christ's teachings which the Father spoke through Him? (Hebrews 1:1-2)

Aren't we suppose to continue in His teachings if we really love and know Him? (1John 2:3-6, John 14:20-24, 2John 1:6)

Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and Walk in Love.

God is good and His mercy endures forever.

 

[gb9]

What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Romans 3:3

Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up. Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor? James 4:10-12

Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”
(Matthew 19:16-17,26 & 11:28-30)

WITH God nothing is impossible.

Who will obey the commandments and who gives the commands? Will the Lord say to His servant "I have created you so that I can serve you, let me do for you what I have commanded you to do because I love you"?

Why can't we obey Him and keep His commandments if He is the one working in us (as the Lawgiver and Lord whose work is to implement and command us to obey and help us to meet the reqirements)(1Corinthians 12:4-6, Romans 8:1-17, Philippians 2:13) and with us?(1Corinthians 3:9, 2Corinthians 6:1, John 4:36)

But what does the scriptures say?

The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!” He replied, “If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it will obey you. “Suppose one of you had a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, ‘Come along now and sit down to eat’? Would he not rather say, ‘Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink’? Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’” Luke 17:6-10

Aren't these Christ's teachings which the Father spoke through Him? (Hebrews 1:1-2)

Aren't we suppose to continue in His teachings if we really love and know Him? (1John 2:3-6, John 14:20-24, 2John 1:6)

Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and Walk in Love.

God is good and His mercy endures forever.

since you mentioned 1st John, perhaps you did not see my previews post, so I will repeat it-

John said the Commands were believe in the name of the Son and love one another.

so, no, He was not referring to the Law/ Sabbath.

so, you judeaizers need to go elsewhere in Scripture to prop up your lies.

 

[wokinluv]

since you mentioned 1st John, perhaps you did not see my previews post, so I will repeat it-

John said the Commands were believe in the name of the Son and love one another.

so, no, He was not referring to the Law/ Sabbath.

so, you judeaizers need to go elsewhere in Scripture to prop up your lies.

Love, for the Day Is Near Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:8-10

Do you not acknowledge the Lawgiver and the Judge? What did the Lawgiver gave us? Who gave you the right to judge people? Are you the Judge?

Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor? James 4:11-12

Can you see and know what's in my heart?

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. 1 John 2:3-6

My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God. Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not take pride in one man over against another. For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not? 1 Corinthians 4:4-7

 

[NayborBear]

WELL SAID NayborBear!

Thanks for considering my question, and the meaty answer!

So, do you think they fight the fellowship with Yahshua and our Heavenly Father via obedience Re John 14:21, Because the spiritual powers in high places is, at all costs preventing them from embracing obedience, knowing that if they do they are will discover fellowship with Yahshua and The Father? If so, why do you think they are so easily deceived? Is it because they are NO the elect? Is this synonymous with the words of Yahshua, "My sheep hear my voice".

Have you ever shared the doctrine of "not being subject to the will and commandments of God" ie required obedience to God with other believers who have not spent time with such people? If so how do you find them responding to such a doctrine? I my case they do not believe me. Beleivers for thousands of years walked in obedience to Gods commandments. Many exclaim that "disobedience" or "rebellion to the will of God" is what they were saved from! So how in the world could anyone beleive a gospel that teaches converts not to worry about obedience. I explain how they say they are under Grace and not the Law and they all pause and say that's a perversion! "God's grace brings us to the place where we desire and love the Law. I have had people ask why I bother to talk with about such foolishness, and I have to admit wondering the same myself sometimes, how about you?

Yanno? Of all the inferences Jesus made concerning "The Father?" How it was His Father that "sent" Him. How He never talked on His own? Only that which the Father gave Him to speak/teach, was that which He taught. Fact of the matter? Jesus was more then inferring! He was MAKING DEFINITE DISTINCTION concerning the DIFFERENCE BETWEEN Himself and the Father!

One of the "tools" the adversary uses? Is seducing people into not being able to "discern" the difference between the Father, and His Son! Believing that Jesus and the Father ARE THE SAME!
By believing this:
John 14
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Tis always! Jesus! Holy Spirit! Jesus! Holy Spirit!
While the GOD, who gave "these gifts?" Is wondering if He's been relegated to "chopped liver" status now!
1 Corinthians 12
6 And there are "DIVERSITIES OF OPERATIONS", but it is the SAME God which worketh all in all.

I talked about this with some guy several years ago now. We arranged to meet at some restaurant to have coffee. It wasn't too awfully long, and he was lookin' for reasons to get away!

I have come to the conclusion, that there are just going to be "some", that just aren't gonna believe ya.

Mostly, it seems, they have "taken to heart" accepting Jesus as their PERSONAL Lord and Savior!
To which, I don't understand! I thought Jesus was EVERYONE'S Lord and Savior!
Well? I mean to whomsoever will MAY come!

Seems like some people wouldn't even care if their Bibles didn't include the O.T.

 

[gb9]

Love, for the Day Is Near Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:8-10

Do you not acknowledge the Lawgiver and the Judge? What did the Lawgiver gave us? Who gave you the right to judge people? Are you the Judge?

Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor? James 4:11-12

Can you see and know what's in my heart?

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. 1 John 2:3-6

My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God. Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not take pride in one man over against another. For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not? 1 Corinthians 4:4-7

in the letter 1st John, John said that the Commands were " believe in the name of the Son, and love one another".

so, once again, John was NOT referring to the Laws God gave to Israel ( only, gentiles never were nor are now under it).

another judeaizer fail.

 

[mailmandan]

in the letter 1st John, John said that the Commands were " believe in the name of the Son, and love one another".

so, once again, John was NOT referring to the Laws God gave to Israel ( only, gentiles never were nor are now under it).

another judeaizer fail.

 

[gb9]

Yanno? Of all the inferences Jesus made concerning "The Father?" How it was His Father that "sent" Him. How He never talked on His own? Only that which the Father gave Him to speak/teach, was that which He taught. Fact of the matter? Jesus was more then inferring! He was MAKING DEFINITE DISTINCTION concerning the DIFFERENCE BETWEEN Himself and the Father!

One of the "tools" the adversary uses? Is seducing people into not being able to "discern" the difference between the Father, and His Son! Believing that Jesus and the Father ARE THE SAME!
By believing this:
John 14
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Tis always! Jesus! Holy Spirit! Jesus! Holy Spirit!
While the GOD, who gave "these gifts?" Is wondering if He's been relegated to "chopped liver" status now!
1 Corinthians 12
6 And there are "DIVERSITIES OF OPERATIONS", but it is the SAME God which worketh all in all.

I talked about this with some guy several years ago now. We arranged to meet at some restaurant to have coffee. It wasn't too awfully long, and he was lookin' for reasons to get away!

I have come to the conclusion, that there are just going to be "some", that just aren't gonna believe ya.

Mostly, it seems, they have "taken to heart" accepting Jesus as their PERSONAL Lord and Savior!
To which, I don't understand! I thought Jesus was EVERYONE'S Lord and Savior!
Well? I mean to whomsoever will MAY come!

Seems like some people wouldn't even care if their Bibles didn't include the O.T.

it's funny to me that you guys love the O.T. so much, yet you hate the Romans because you claim they invented the Trinity ( they did not , Jesus did), they outlawed Sabbath keeping ( that was wrong, should not have been done), left out other letters, etc,

these same romans who did these things also attached what they called the jewish writings to the letters and the Gospels.

double minded much?

 

[Yahshua]

you actually said that the 10 Commandments were not part of the Mosaic Covenant. that has to be the most outrageous lie I have heard, so I could really care less about your opinions.

and, just so you know, if you want to know what is a judeaizer is, look in a mirror and speak you " theology " outloud. you will not only see one, but hear one as well.

Yup...he's been thoroughly dispatched. Ignited by GB's verbal fury. He shouldn't bother us anymore, thank goodness.

 

[Grandpa]

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. 1 John 2:3-6

1 John 2:3-6
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Is this one of the Lords commandments, or is it just a suggestion?;

Matthew 11:28-29
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.


So which one, out of these two, would show that you know the Lord Jesus?

Working at the commandments given under Moses?

Or Resting in Christ?


And then we could ask the question "which one is more likely to keep the commandments given under Moses?" but that may be a more advanced question. Let's start off simply.

 

[Grandpa]

Yup...he's been thoroughly dispatched. Ignited by GB's verbal fury. He shouldn't bother us anymore, thank goodness.

He did have a point, though.

Matthew 5:17-18
17 Do not think that I came to abolish the Torah or the Neviim. I did not come to abolish but to complete.

18 For, omein, truly I say to you, until Shomayim and haaretz pass away, not one yod, not one tag (ornamental flourish), will pass from the Torah until everything is accomplished.


You would have to consider that the 10 commandments are part of Torah. Wouldn't you also have to consider levitical rites to be part of Torah as well? Considering that they are actually IN the Torah???

So if levitical rites have been fulfilled... What does the Lord then say about the 10 commandments???


If you don't understand what the Lord says about the 10 commandments in Matthew 5:18 that is ok. But those who call you "legalist" and "Judaizer" know what the Lord is saying and think that you must twist scripture and the words of the Lord on purpose. Because what He says is so clear to us. We don't understand how it could not be as clear to you.

The Lord is not being ambiguous here. He came to fulfill the WHOLE Torah. Not just certain parts. Not just a jot here or a tittle there.

For those who say the Lord Jesus only fulfilled part of the Torah but left some other parts for you just shows a lack of understanding of who the Lord is and what He has accomplished.

Which is not really a shameful thing. Who knows EVERYTHING that the Lord has accomplished and who has perfect Understanding of Him? But when we don't understand everything at least we can trust His Word.

 

[Yahshua]

I remain grateful for the persistent and loving guidance that the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit never ceased to bring to me when I researched diligently the doctrine of Grace only. I remember finding myself being able to agree whole heartedly with the doctrine as long as I stayed within a narrow band of Bible verses, but my experiences were/are like yours; once I read on it quickly begins to loose its light and the verses used to support it took on the meaning they were written to convey. To accept the Grace only doctrine you even have to disregard 50% of the epistles of Paul!

Yes ^this^. Diligently search the scriptures to see if these things be so.

And what I found is that while my agreement with "grace only, do nothing" doctrine waned, my understanding of Grace itself grew.

I now understand Grace to be "Christ's Strength", the divine power to walk as Christ walked. And as we exercise His strength we grow in His strength, becoming more and more like Him, until we come to the full measure of the stature of Christ (Ephesians 4:13).

As nature shows us, strength isn't grown without training against a resistance of some kind. A person who seeks to increase their muscles must lift heavy weights. The weight won't lift itself. Similarly, Paul uses the runners analogy in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27, saying he trains and disciplines his own body so as to not lose his prize by succumbing to the temptation all around him during his preaching.

Sin (disobedience; 1 John 3:4) and its temptation is the weight, and we've been freely given a measure of Christ's strength to resist against it (Ephesians 4:7). The more we do, the more Christ's strength grows in us and the easier resisting (obedience) gets...so then more "weight" (temptation) is eventually allowed into the training.

This is why the Almighty wouldn't remove the "thorn" from Paul's side when he asked and said His Grace is sufficient (2 Corinthians 12:9). His strength is all Paul needs. Paul was expected to keep growing in that strength just like every other believer he preached to.

The living God tempts no one, and never allow us to be tempted more than we can handle (1 Corinthians 10:13). And if we stumble and fall into that sin, we immediately go back to the throne and confess our sin to be washed by the only one who can cleanse/justify us (1 John 1:9), as there's nothing we can do to cleanse ourselves of sin...and then we return to our feet and continue our effort in resisting sin (i.e. obeying), growing more and more in Christ's strength as the Holy Spirit teaches and guides us on how to properly obey the living God.

...until the good work in us is completed and we are like Christ.

----

Once I personally understood grace as Christ's strength, for me everything else started harmonizing.

 

[Yahshua]

He did have a point, though.

Matthew 5:17-18
17 Do not think that I came to abolish the Torah or the Neviim. I did not come to abolish but to complete.

18 For, omein, truly I say to you, until Shomayim and haaretz pass away, not one yod, not one tag (ornamental flourish), will pass from the Torah until everything is accomplished.


You would have to consider that the 10 commandments are part of Torah. Wouldn't you also have to consider levitical rites to be part of Torah as well? Considering that they are actually IN the Torah???

So if levitical rites have been fulfilled... What does the Lord then say about the 10 commandments???


If you don't understand what the Lord says about the 10 commandments in Matthew 5:18 that is ok. But those who call you "legalist" and "Judaizer" know what the Lord is saying and think that you must twist scripture and the words of the Lord on purpose. Because what He says is so clear to us. We don't understand how it could not be as clear to you.

The Lord is not being ambiguous here. He came to fulfill the WHOLE Torah. Not just certain parts. Not just a jot here or a tittle there.

For those who say the Lord Jesus only fulfilled part of the Torah but left some other parts for you just shows a lack of understanding of who the Lord is and what He has accomplished.

Which is not really a shameful thing. Who knows EVERYTHING that the Lord has accomplished and who has perfect Understanding of Him? But when we don't understand everything at least we can trust His Word.

...surely you don't expected me to defend myself against what someone claims an imaginary person said? Let's let that imaginary person defend their own statements if they can.

But as you know, I'll happily explain anything I said though, just let me know what that is and I'll address it. Feel free to direct me to the post. No problem.

 

[Whispered]

* except the same man in the same letter ( not a book ) said the Commands are to " believe in the name of the Son, and love one another". no Torah, no Sabbath.

so, just another fake judeaizer talking point blown to pieces.

Incorrect. It is a book. If you read the New Testament you will see the books are identified as the Book of Luke, and so forth.
You're wrong about the Torah and Sabbath as well. I will not participate in the circular rehash that I observed in my prior post. What I will ask is, are you one who follows Replacement Theology?