Day of the Lord - The Heathen
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LOL You could ask what ones thinks. I thought the analogy was clear by looking at the two verse you offered. It would seem you are literalizing the accounts as if we did wrestle against flesh and blood . And not belief (faith) against unbelief (no faith)
Words have meaning hid. It is never about flesh and blood what the eyes see .
Simply belief faith or none
Edom is used to represent unbelief as a figure of speech like Jacob used in the same way, unbelief.
Israel inward Jews according to the unseen spirit represent those born again is another kind of figure of speech. The name changes from Jacob the deceiver to represent the bride, Israel, re-named lastly Christian
Israel is used to represent a certain kind of spirit not seen the spirit of faith
Because we do not know God after any flesh the names used simply represent belief or on belief. it’s not the Hebrew nation against that pagan nations of the world as gentiles. If a person has not the born-again Spirit of Christ they simply to do not belong to God.
The wrath that is being poured out is not on one group but the whole of mankind. Not about corrupted flesh and blood of one nation but the wrath being poured out from heaven on all nations that violate the letter of the law as that which kills revealing the end of the wrath.No spirit life.
Going back a few verses to get the context of verse 15
Verse 2 - Edom I have made you small among the heathen, Edom you are greatly despised.
- Edom/Esau/Drunkards of Ephriam are all used to represent the sinful nation of Israel.
- God has made Edom small among the heathens.
- Bullet point 2 is saying exactly the same thing as verse 15&16. The kingdom is being taken from the Jews and given to the nations.
Verse 8 - In that day (the day of the Lord), God will destroy the wise men out of Edom (Israel) and understanding from the mount of Esau (High up leaders - Pharisees).
Verse 9 - The mighty men of Teman (another veiled reference to Israel) will be distressed. So much so, that every one will be CUT OFF by slaughter (the day of the Lord).
Verse 10 thru 14 - More veiled reference to the wicked of Israel.
All of that ^ refers to the wicked of Israel.
Verse 15 - The day of the Lord is upon all the heathen. As thou (Edom/wicked of Israel) has done, it shall be done to you. Your reward will be returned on your head (Edom/wicked of Israel).
Verse 16 - For as you (Edom/wicked of Israel) have drunk upon my holy mountain (a GOOD thing), so shall the heathen drink CONTINUALLY. Yes, THEY (the heathen). And THEY (the heathen) shall drink, and THEY (the heathen) shall SWALLOW DOWN (believe it), And THEY (the heathen) shall be AS THOUGH THEY HAD BEEN NOT.
- Notice that "for as you" refers back to the last part of verse 15 (in red).
- Notice that "so shall the heathen drink" (in blue) changes the context from Edom's destruction to the heathens salvation.
- The heathen WERE NOT God's people but now they are to be as they had not been... now they are the people of God (in green).
Edom means EARTHY, RED ALL OVER, sinful, of this world, unsaved, not regenerated - the wicked Jews that killed Christ.
If you can't see that Edom/Esau/Drunkards of Ephriam is SYMBOLICALLY (not metaphorically) pointing to the sinful people of Israel, I can't help you. Every one of the prophets use those words, and other symbolic words, to point to the drunkards of Ephriam.
Also, I'm done with the metaphor discussion.
I'll comment on your comments as soon as I can. I had things to do over the last couple of days and have fallen way behind in responding to people.
I reject your position as erroneous, but for the sake of discussion, let's go with it for a moment...Edom means EARTHY, RED ALL OVER, sinful, of this world, unsaved, not regenerated - the wicked Jews that killed Christ.
If you can't see that Edom/Esau/Drunkards of Ephriam is SYMBOLICALLY (not metaphorically) pointing to the sinful people of Israel, I can't help you. Every one of the prophets use those words, and other symbolic words, to point to the drunkards of Ephriam.
Also, I'm done with the metaphor discussion.
Please explain how verses 10 to 12 make sense in your version.
Jer 49:10 But I have made Esau bare, I have uncovered his secret places, and he shall not be able to hide himself: his seed is spoiled, and his brethren, and his neighbours, and he is not.
Is that verse talking about Esau or was Esau symbolizing someone?
If it's symbolism, who does he represent?
"Wut?"
Lol, that was to Dino, we we're arguing.... um I mean discussing the bible's use of metaphors.
The whole discussing in that chapter is about Edom who represents unsaved Jews.... where do get the whole of mankind? Because the verse says heathen?
Oba 1:10 For thy violence against thy brother Jacob shame shall cover thee, and thou shalt be cut off for ever.
Oba 1:11 In the day that thou stoodest on the other side, in the day that the strangers carried away captive his forces, and foreigners entered into his gates, and cast lots upon Jerusalem, even thou wast as one of them.
Oba 1:12 But thou shouldest not have looked on the day of thy brother in the day that he became a stranger; neither shouldest thou have rejoiced over the children of Judah in the day of their destruction; neither shouldest thou have spoken proudly in the day of distress.
Verse 10 - This verse is talking about Edom, not the land but Esau the person, Jacob's brother, so I'm going to use Esau instead.
For Esau's violence against his brother Jacob, shame will cover you (Esau) and you (Esau) will be cut off forever.
This is speaking of Esau (representing the wicked Jews) will be cut off because of his violence against Jacob (representing the Godly Jews).
Before I go any further, do you agree that Edom is Esau and Jacob is Jacob?
Do you agree that Jacob and Esau, the literal people were dead and gone at this time?
Oba 1:11 In the day that thou stoodest on the other side, in the day that the strangers carried away captive his forces, and foreigners entered into his gates, and cast lots upon Jerusalem, even thou wast as one of them.Yes, I agree, and already that is enough to blow your theory apart.
Oba 1:12 But thou shouldest not have looked on the day of thy brother in the day that he became a stranger; neither shouldest thou have rejoiced over the children of Judah in the day of their destruction; neither shouldest thou have spoken proudly in the day of distress.
We agree on something.
Verse 11 - In the day that thou (Esau - representing something) stood on the other side while the strangers carried away captive his (Jacob's - representing something) forces and foreigners entered into his (Jacob's) gates and cast lots upon Jerusalem, even thou (Esau) was one of them.
Verse 12 - But thou (Esau) should not have looked on the day of your brother (Jacob) in the day that he (Jacob) became a stranger. Neither should you (Esau) have rejoiced over the children of Judah in the day of their destruction. Neither should you (Esau) have spoken proudly in the day of distress.
Is there enough information there to say with certainty when "the strangers carried away captive Jacob's forces?
Is there enough information to say when Jacob became a stranger?
Is there enough information to say when Esau rejoiced over the destruction of Judah?
In my opinion there is not enough information in those verses to answer any of those questions. So we would have to go further in the story.
In John 8:31,32 ect. they tell Jesus "we have our father Abraham and have never been in bondage ect." Now if they descended from Jacob then they were in bondage in Egypt(and other places) . But if they were forced to convert to Judaism(Maccabees) and were not in captivity in Egypt(Deuteronomy 2:5) then they could say to Jesus "we have our father Abraham and have never been in bondage..." and Jesus would not argue because Esau was not in bondage in Egypt . Who is Herod?
I don't think you've come anywhere near proving your assertion that Edom (Esau) represents Israel. Both "Edom" and "Esau" mean the descendants of the literal brother of the literal Jacob. The NIV is far more clear:Oba 1:11 In the day that thou stoodest on the other side, in the day that the strangers carried away captive his forces, and foreigners entered into his gates, and cast lots upon Jerusalem, even thou wast as one of them.
Oba 1:12 But thou shouldest not have looked on the day of thy brother in the day that he became a stranger; neither shouldest thou have rejoiced over the children of Judah in the day of their destruction; neither shouldest thou have spoken proudly in the day of distress.
We agree on something.
Verse 11 - In the day that thou (Esau - representing something) stood on the other side while the strangers carried away captive his (Jacob's - representing something) forces and foreigners entered into his (Jacob's) gates and cast lots upon Jerusalem, even thou (Esau) was one of them.
Verse 12 - But thou (Esau) should not have looked on the day of your brother (Jacob) in the day that he (Jacob) became a stranger. Neither should you (Esau) have rejoiced over the children of Judah in the day of their destruction. Neither should you (Esau) have spoken proudly in the day of distress.
Is there enough information there to say with certainty when "the strangers carried away captive Jacob's forces?
Is there enough information to say when Jacob became a stranger?
Is there enough information to say when Esau rejoiced over the destruction of Judah?
In my opinion there is not enough information in those verses to answer any of those questions. So we would have to go further in the story.
Because of the violence against your brother Jacob,
you will be covered with shame;
you will be destroyed forever.
11 On the day you stood aloof
while strangers carried off his wealth
and foreigners entered his gates
and cast lots for Jerusalem,
you were like one of them.
12 You should not gloat over your brother
in the day of his misfortune,
nor rejoice over the people of Judah
in the day of their destruction,
nor boast so much
in the day of their trouble.
The "you" in all three verses is Edom. God is rebuking Edom for standing by and gloating while strangers carried off Jacob's wealth, and rejoicing in the day of Jacob's trouble.
It appears that you overlooked the "as" at the end of verse 11 ("like" in the NIV). That little word makes the sentence a comparison between Edom and the strangers/foreigners. Edom was like the strangers. The NIV of verse 12 says nothing about Jacob becoming a stranger.
I believe these three verses speak of past events, not future.
"As" was overlooked, my apologies. I didn't mean that Esau himself was there, it means that Esau was against them just like one of the foreigners.
Obadiah is foretelling the future or he is speaking of something in the past. So where do we find this story of Edom gloating over strangers carrying off Jacob's wealth in the past?
E
eternally-gratefull
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1, this is a prophecy of gods judgment on edom (esau) not Isreal so i believe the Ops premise is incorrect, it is not Israel
2. Edom, as prophesied where wiped out, as if they had never been.
3, when did deliverance occur? Its in the text..
But on Mount Zion there shall be [h]deliverance,
And there shall be holiness;
The house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.
18 The house of Jacob shall be a fire,
And the house of Joseph a flame;
But the house of Esau shall be stubble;
They shall kindle them and devour them,
And no survivor shall remain of the house of Esau,”
For the Lord has spoken.
19 The [i]South shall possess the mountains of Esau,
And the Lowland shall possess Philistia.
They shall possess the fields of Ephraim
And the fields of Samaria.
Benjamin shall possess Gilead.
20 And the captives of this host of the children of Israel
Shall possess the land of the Canaanites
As far as Zarephath.
The captives of Jerusalem who are in Sepharad
Shall possess the cities of the [j]South.
21 Then saviors[k] shall come to Mount Zion
To judge the mountains of Esau,
And the kingdom shall be the Lord’s.
2. Edom, as prophesied where wiped out, as if they had never been.
3, when did deliverance occur? Its in the text..
But on Mount Zion there shall be [h]deliverance,
And there shall be holiness;
The house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.
18 The house of Jacob shall be a fire,
And the house of Joseph a flame;
But the house of Esau shall be stubble;
They shall kindle them and devour them,
And no survivor shall remain of the house of Esau,”
For the Lord has spoken.
19 The [i]South shall possess the mountains of Esau,
And the Lowland shall possess Philistia.
They shall possess the fields of Ephraim
And the fields of Samaria.
Benjamin shall possess Gilead.
20 And the captives of this host of the children of Israel
Shall possess the land of the Canaanites
As far as Zarephath.
The captives of Jerusalem who are in Sepharad
Shall possess the cities of the [j]South.
21 Then saviors[k] shall come to Mount Zion
To judge the mountains of Esau,
And the kingdom shall be the Lord’s.