Is believing in the Trinity necessary for salvation? (POLL!)

[Locoponydirtman]

Isaiah 9:6 do you know what that verse is about?

Yes

 

[cc4]

Horse Hockey! Please post your evidence for such garbage and then we will talk. Anyone can make a claim but around here you have to prove your claim. So go for it? Btw, welcome to the Christian Chat forums.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Eziekiel 8 clearly teaches what unholy things people did 2500 years ago. When the temple was destroyed and Nebuchadnezzar II ruled, or more specific what happend after that.
People have become so polluted by the baylonian captivity so they were crying for Tammuz on the streets!

If you dont know who Tammuz is here is a video who explains it.

"He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do. Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD’S house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women WEEPING FOR TAMMUZ."
Eziekiel 8:13-14

They did even greater abominations, with their faces toward the east they worshipped the sun (Nimrod). Today that worship it's repackaged and goes under the name Islam.

"Between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they WORSHIPPES THE SUN TOWARD THE EAST."
Ezikekiel 8:16

The next thing that happend is that Ezikekiel mark everyone in the FORHEAD who dosent take part of all abominations, and when they march out of the city they slay everyone who havent recived the mark in their forheads.

"{9:4} And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, AND SET A MARK UPON THE FORHEAD OF THE MEN THAT SIGH AND CRY FOR ALL THE ABOMINATIONS that be done in the midst thereof.
And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: SLAY UTTERLY OLD AND YOUNG, both maids, and little children, and women: BUT COME NOT NEAR ANY MAN UPON WHOM IS THE MARK; AND BEGIN AT MY SANCTUARY. "
Ezekiel 9:4-6


"And because of all this we make a SURE COVERNANT, and write it; and our princes, Levites, and priests, SEAL unto it."
Nehemiah 10:38

Nehemiah 11:1-29
"NOW THOSE THAT WAS SEALED WERE, Nehemiah, the Tirshatha, the son of Hachaliah, and Zidkijah, etc etc. And the rest of the people, the priests, the Levites, the porters, the singers, the Nethinim, AND ALL THAY THAT HAD SEPERATED THEMSELFS FROM THE PEOPLE OF THE LANDS UNTO THE LAW OF GOD, their wives, their sons, and their daughters, every one having knowledge, and having understanding; they clave to their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God’s law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to OBSERVE and do all THE COMMANDMENTS of the Lord our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes;"

Jeremiah co existed with Ezekiel and Nehemia and he wrote this.

"And thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness. Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a WHORE’S FOREHEAD, thou refusedst to be ashamed. "
Jeremiah 3:2-3

A whore’s forehead? Babylon is the whore and ppl hade become Babylon and worshiped the gods from Babylon and was not ashamed by it. Only those who followed Yahooahs law the ten commandments was sealed in their forheads with hes name and was saved.

This story feels familiar. And it does so because it is also included in the New Testament

---------

"And I saw another angel ascending from the east, HAVING THE SEAL OF THE LIVING GOD: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, HURTNOT THE EARTH, NEITHER THE SEA, NOR THE TREES TILL WE HAVE SEALED THE SEARVANTS OF OUR GOD IN THEIR FORHEADS."
Revelation 7:2-3
"And it was commanded them that they should NOT HURT the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but ONLY those men which have NOT THE SEAL OF GOD in their FOREHEADS"
Revelation 9:4

The angels are not alowed to hurt anything on earth until the servents of Yahooah are sealed in their forheads.And after that they are comanded to only hurt those how dont have the seal of Yahooah.

So what is the seal of Yahooah? If you look at the story from the old testament, is only those how keep the ten commandments and abstain from Babylonian fornications how are sealed.

"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the COMMANDMENTS OF GOD"
Revelation 14:11-12

"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, HAVING HES FATHERS NAME WRITTEN IN THEIR FOREHEADS."
Revelation 14:1

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; AND HES NAME SHALL BE IN THEIR FORHEADS.
And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever."
Revelation 22:3-5

Onlt those who keep the ten commandments are saved, and when you do keep them you get a spiritual seal with hes name in you forhead.

----------

"So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her FOREHEAD was A NAME IS WRITTEN, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."
Revelation 17:3-5

"And there followed another angel, saying, BABYLON IS FALLEN, is fallen, THAT GREAT CITY BECAUSE SHE MADE ALL NATIONS DRING OF THE WINE OF THE WRATH OF HEAR FORNICATION.
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his FORHEAD, OR IN HIS HAND.
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God"
Revelation 14:8-10

Today we parallel the story from the old testament, almost everyone have forsaken the ten commandments, and are following the traditions of men and are by that partakes of Babylon. And when we do a spiritual name is written in our forheads and that name is BABYLON!

"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that NO MAN MIGHT BUY AND SELL, SAVE HE THAT HAD THE MARK, OR THE NAME OF THE BEAST, OR THE NUMBER OF HES NAME. Here is WISDOM. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."
Revelation 13:16-18

Wisdom is knowledge of the scripture and without it you cant find what the mark is.
Back then when you keep the sabbath you dident work and you also dident buy or sell anything you dident even carry money around on the sabbath day. If you keep the ten commandments you also keep the sabbath and if you do you dont buy and sell on Yahooahs holy days. Thats why the sabbath commandments is the only commandment begin with REMEMBER the sabbath day to keep it holy, he know that we would forget it.

 

[Lightskin]

John 3:16-17 says whoever believes in Jesus shall be saved. No mention of the Holy Spirit.

 

[tourist]

It kind of depends on your overall belief system. For example Muslims believe Jesus existed but they do not think he is god.

JW believe Jesus died for them but they do not believe he is God and they also have a works based faith.

More importantly we do not save ourselves by our theology, God draws us to Him. So it’s possible to have spot on theology but still not be saved.

Jesus said come to Him as little children not as professors of theology. Anyone who thinks they are saved by what they believe, rather than what Jesus has done in their lives, is not saved. Any genuine Christian will know it’s not about them!

Jesus was speaking to a small group and said that there were others that were not of this fold and He must gather them in also. I take the word 'fold' to mean Christian.

 

[maxwel]

Eziekiel 8 clearly teaches what unholy things people did 2500 years ago. When the temple was destroyed and Nebuchadnezzar II ruled, or more specific what happend after that.
People have become so polluted by the baylonian captivity so they were crying for Tammuz on the streets!

Irrelevant:

Historically there is no such thing as a "pagan trinity",
and this post of your does nothing to prove it in the slightest.


All Christians, and all Jews, know that ancient Israel fell into idolatry for a time, and they were punished for it by God.

This has NOTHING to do with this thread about the Trinity.


The verses you posted do not prove, or even allude to, your assertion of a "pagan trinity."

There was never a "pagan trinity"; it never existed historically - it was invented in the 1850's by Alexander Hislop.


I'll repost my previous post on this, which you seemed to miss.



===========================

cc4,

Your profile says you are NOT a Christian,.
We should expect you to favor theories that support a non-christian position... even if those theories are provably false.


The so-called "pagan trinity":


1. The "pagan trinity" of Nimrod, Semiramis, and Tammuz never existed historically, and there is absolutely no proof of it.

2. This "pagan trinity" was never heard of until Alexander Hislop simply asserted it, out of thin air, in his book in the 1850's.

3. Hislop created this theory by simply fabricating connections out of thin air, and stitching nonsense together... much in the way Dan Brown wrote the Da Vinci Code - he just sat down with some poor historical literature, arbitrarily selected a few odd bits and pieces, and used his vivid imagination to connect it all together into a wild story.

4. It IS possible to sit down and go over each of Hislop's errors, and prove they are fabricated and unfactual. This takes a bit of time, but the information is readily available.

5. Furthermore, modern archaeology has PROVEN, beyond any doubt, that this whole theory couldn't possibly be true.
In the historical cuneiform records of the kings of Assyria (which could not be read in Hyslop's time) both Semiramis and Ninus (presumed erroneously by Hislop to be Nimrod) FAIL TO APPEAR. Semiramis and Ninus, the foundation stones of Hislop's theory, DO NOT APPEAR in the historical lists of Assyrian kings... they aren't there. They aren't real. They didn't exist!

Hyslop's theory of the "pagan trinity" was based on characters that NEVER EXISTED!

Semiramis and Ninus also fail to appear in any other ancient cuneiform writings, or in any Mesopotamian literature. They just aren't there. Hislop relied solely on much later sources, which are full of errors, and which actually contradict the authentic primary sources we can now decipher. Hislop used these late sources, which were wrong and full of errors, to just haphazardly "connect dots" and conjecture his way to wild conspiracy theories.

Hislop was so sloppy that he didn't even stick faithfully to those later sources which were full of errors... he actually pieced THOSE together in ridiculous ways, making wild conjectures. So at the last, Hyslop's work was nothing but wild conjectures based on bad data... conjectures on top of conjectures.


Atheists take this nonsense, that has been thoroughly debunked, and they just repeat it over and over.
Why?
Because it supports their cause.

.

 

[tourist]

But Jesus was not a Jew. In Greek, Jesus is spelled in one way and in Hebrew in another way.

The mother of Jesus was a Jew and her blood was passed on to Him. That makes Jesus a Jew by blood. On Hs cross Pilate had a sign nailed sayin "King of the Jews" in 3 languages.

 

[bluto]

Eziekiel 8 clearly teaches what unholy things people did 2500 years ago. When the temple was destroyed and Nebuchadnezzar II ruled, or more specific what happend after that.
People have become so polluted by the baylonian captivity so they were crying for Tammuz on the streets!

If you dont know who Tammuz is here is a video who explains it.

"He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do. Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD’S house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women WEEPING FOR TAMMUZ."
Eziekiel 8:13-14

They did even greater abominations, with their faces toward the east they worshipped the sun (Nimrod). Today that worship it's repackaged and goes under the name Islam.

"Between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they WORSHIPPES THE SUN TOWARD THE EAST."
Ezikekiel 8:16

The next thing that happend is that Ezikekiel mark everyone in the FORHEAD who dosent take part of all abominations, and when they march out of the city they slay everyone who havent recived the mark in their forheads.

"{9:4} And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, AND SET A MARK UPON THE FORHEAD OF THE MEN THAT SIGH AND CRY FOR ALL THE ABOMINATIONS that be done in the midst thereof.
And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: SLAY UTTERLY OLD AND YOUNG, both maids, and little children, and women: BUT COME NOT NEAR ANY MAN UPON WHOM IS THE MARK; AND BEGIN AT MY SANCTUARY. "
Ezekiel 9:4-6


"And because of all this we make a SURE COVERNANT, and write it; and our princes, Levites, and priests, SEAL unto it."
Nehemiah 10:38

Nehemiah 11:1-29
"NOW THOSE THAT WAS SEALED WERE, Nehemiah, the Tirshatha, the son of Hachaliah, and Zidkijah, etc etc. And the rest of the people, the priests, the Levites, the porters, the singers, the Nethinim, AND ALL THAY THAT HAD SEPERATED THEMSELFS FROM THE PEOPLE OF THE LANDS UNTO THE LAW OF GOD, their wives, their sons, and their daughters, every one having knowledge, and having understanding; they clave to their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God’s law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to OBSERVE and do all THE COMMANDMENTS of the Lord our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes;"

Jeremiah co existed with Ezekiel and Nehemia and he wrote this.

"And thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness. Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a WHORE’S FOREHEAD, thou refusedst to be ashamed. "
Jeremiah 3:2-3

A whore’s forehead? Babylon is the whore and ppl hade become Babylon and worshiped the gods from Babylon and was not ashamed by it. Only those who followed Yahooahs law the ten commandments was sealed in their forheads with hes name and was saved.

This story feels familiar. And it does so because it is also included in the New Testament

---------

"And I saw another angel ascending from the east, HAVING THE SEAL OF THE LIVING GOD: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, HURTNOT THE EARTH, NEITHER THE SEA, NOR THE TREES TILL WE HAVE SEALED THE SEARVANTS OF OUR GOD IN THEIR FORHEADS."
Revelation 7:2-3
"And it was commanded them that they should NOT HURT the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but ONLY those men which have NOT THE SEAL OF GOD in their FOREHEADS"
Revelation 9:4

The angels are not alowed to hurt anything on earth until the servents of Yahooah are sealed in their forheads.And after that they are comanded to only hurt those how dont have the seal of Yahooah.

So what is the seal of Yahooah? If you look at the story from the old testament, is only those how keep the ten commandments and abstain from Babylonian fornications how are sealed.

"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the COMMANDMENTS OF GOD"
Revelation 14:11-12

"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, HAVING HES FATHERS NAME WRITTEN IN THEIR FOREHEADS."
Revelation 14:1

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; AND HES NAME SHALL BE IN THEIR FORHEADS.
And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever."
Revelation 22:3-5

Onlt those who keep the ten commandments are saved, and when you do keep them you get a spiritual seal with hes name in you forhead.

----------

"So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her FOREHEAD was A NAME IS WRITTEN, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."
Revelation 17:3-5

"And there followed another angel, saying, BABYLON IS FALLEN, is fallen, THAT GREAT CITY BECAUSE SHE MADE ALL NATIONS DRING OF THE WINE OF THE WRATH OF HEAR FORNICATION.
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his FORHEAD, OR IN HIS HAND.
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God"
Revelation 14:8-10

Today we parallel the story from the old testament, almost everyone have forsaken the ten commandments, and are following the traditions of men and are by that partakes of Babylon. And when we do a spiritual name is written in our forheads and that name is BABYLON!

"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that NO MAN MIGHT BUY AND SELL, SAVE HE THAT HAD THE MARK, OR THE NAME OF THE BEAST, OR THE NUMBER OF HES NAME. Here is WISDOM. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."
Revelation 13:16-18

Wisdom is knowledge of the scripture and without it you cant find what the mark is.
Back then when you keep the sabbath you dident work and you also dident buy or sell anything you dident even carry money around on the sabbath day. If you keep the ten commandments you also keep the sabbath and if you do you dont buy and sell on Yahooahs holy days. Thats why the sabbath commandments is the only commandment begin with REMEMBER the sabbath day to keep it holy, he know that we would forget it.

Wait a minute buster. You originally made this statement:
Trinety has its rots in Babylon. Nimrod the Father(sun god) Semiramis mother (Moon god) and Tammus their child also a god.

The Vatican had sold a repackage wersion with father, mother son. Now its repagage again to Father, son, spirit.
Trinety is Babylonian worship and Idoltry!

Yahoosha (Jesus) is the incorruptible image of the invisebule one (Yahooah/god)

Father and som worship always have and always will be pagan worship!

Now you come here with a video (which I watched a little bit of it) and you have a guy quoting the Bible to prove that the Bible and religion is pagan. Do you know what that is called in logic? It's called "circular reasoning." In other words, your quoting the Bible which you don't believe in the first place to prove the Bible is false and pagan.

Not to mention the fact that your an admitted non-christian so how can you or the guy in the video understand the Bible? The good thing about the Bible is the fact that it is "brutally" honest in describing the human condition of man. Verses of Scripture have to be understood in their "context." You can't just read that something like, "God just murdered the Egyptians by drowning them in the Red Sea." The Bible is a book of order and God is not "caprcious." That is He is not given to sudden and unaccountable changes of mood or behavior.

Now, I would like to start over with you by asking this question? Do you believe a person by the name of Jesus Christ existed? Or do you believe that He is a historical figure?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[RevelationMan]

as Rev 22:13 tells us the Lord God is The Alpha & Omega, The First & the Last and the Beginning & the End. These are three beings of the trinity but the Lamb is Lord of Lords. The Alpha & Omega is the Father, The First & Last is the Son and the Beginning and End is the Holy Spirit. But since the Lamb is Lord of Lords he is part of who the Lord God is. The Lord is the Lamb and God is God and when together they are the "Lord God" and when separate they are the Lamb and God. Jesus is the Bright Morning Star or the angel of the Lord God. When the Lamb is with Jesus he is God so they are actually two and three. Just some food for thought

 

[bluto]

as Rev 22:13 tells us the Lord God is The Alpha & Omega, The First & the Last and the Beginning & the End. These are three beings of the trinity but the Lamb is Lord of Lords. The Alpha & Omega is the Father, The First & Last is the Son and the Beginning and End is the Holy Spirit. But since the Lamb is Lord of Lords he is part of who the Lord God is. The Lord is the Lamb and God is God and when together they are the "Lord God" and when separate they are the Lamb and God. Jesus is the Bright Morning Star or the angel of the Lord God. When the Lamb is with Jesus he is God so they are actually two and three. Just some food for thought

Hi revelationman, welcome to the Christian Chat forums. What you posted is on the right track but please take what I'm about to say in the spirit of kindness/correction. First of all the Alpha & Omega and the First & the Last and the Beginning & the End are "NOT" three beings of the Trinity. When you say three beings it means to most people three gods.

I know what you mean but others may not so there is no sense in raising contraversial issues. The Trinity consist of three coequal "persons" who make up the One God. Another thing to remember is they are not three "separate" persons but three "distinct" persons. The definition of the word "separate" and "distinct" are not the same even though the words are synonymous.

Again, I am not being "knitpicky" but explaing to you that in explaining the Trinity you need to be accurate and precise in you language. So when we read at Isaiah 44:6, "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel And his Redeemer the Lord of host; I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." This verse is referring to God because God is our Redeemer.

The following is why. Revelation 1:8, "I am the Alpha and Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come the Almighty." Now look at Revelation 1:17,18, "Do not be afraid, I am the first and the last, vs18, and the living One, and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore etc." So here we have Jesus Christ being identified as the First and Last and He to is our Redeemer and He is the Lord God Almighty. Does this make sense to you? Btw, who told you the angel of the Lord is Jesus Christ?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[RickStudies]

John 3:16-17 says whoever believes in Jesus shall be saved. No mention of the Holy Spirit.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Romans 8

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Vote up guys! Discuss, do you believe its necessary for salvation?

Ima throw out a politician answer, YES and NO! (You heard me! I should run for office, lets loan our way out of debt)

Yes, you gotta believe in God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ who is deity (John 1:1), and the Holy Spirit. (While claiming ONE GOD, not three!)
But do you need to understand all the theological language that people have created around it? I'd say NO! Because I guarantee them folks in apostolic times didnt use that language. Most Christians at that time were poor people and lower class people, I use that term low class with respect too! I simply mean not high up in society!

I think the theological language, creeds and all them things was designed out of NECESSITY, cause of all the wrong doctrines floating around during them days. One interesting thing I noticed looking into this was: Unitarianism was almost non-existant in the early Church, I find that hilarious considering how many unitarian groups always say that the trinity was a Catholic "corruption".

Yes.

Matthew 28:16-20 New International Version (NIV)
The Great Commission
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

 

[RevelationMan]

Hi revelationman, welcome to the Christian Chat forums. What you posted is on the right track but please take what I'm about to say in the spirit of kindness/correction. First of all the Alpha & Omega and the First & the Last and the Beginning & the End are "NOT" three beings of the Trinity. When you say three beings it means to most people three gods.

I know what you mean but others may not so there is no sense in raising contraversial issues. The Trinity consist of three coequal "persons" who make up the One God. Another thing to remember is they are not three "separate" persons but three "distinct" persons. The definition of the word "separate" and "distinct" are not the same even though the words are synonymous.

Again, I am not being "knitpicky" but explaing to you that in explaining the Trinity you need to be accurate and precise in you language. So when we read at Isaiah 44:6, "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel And his Redeemer the Lord of host; I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." This verse is referring to God because God is our Redeemer.

The following is why. Revelation 1:8, "I am the Alpha and Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come the Almighty." Now look at Revelation 1:17,18, "Do not be afraid, I am the first and the last, vs18, and the living One, and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore etc." So here we have Jesus Christ being identified as the First and Last and He to is our Redeemer and He is the Lord God Almighty. Does this make sense to you? Btw, who told you the angel of the Lord is Jesus Christ?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Revelation tells us that Jesus Christ is the "firstborn" from the dead leaving room that there may be at least one more who was raised from the dead (besides all the rest of us coming later). I don't believe that this necessarily implies that Jesus Christ is the First and the Last but rather is the Son of God and the faithful witness. So I would say that there were two raised from the dead. There were two that died and there were two resurrections. One was spiritually resurrected and the other was physically resurrected.

 

[bluto]

Revelation tells us that Jesus Christ is the "firstborn" from the dead leaving room that there may be at least one more who was raised from the dead (besides all the rest of us coming later). I don't believe that this necessarily implies that Jesus Christ is the First and the Last but rather is the Son of God and the faithful witness. So I would say that there were two raised from the dead. There were two that died and there were two resurrections. One was spiritually resurrected and the other was physically resurrected.

I know it says at Revelation 1:5, "and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born from the dead etc. Jesus Christ is the first-born from the dead who did not die again like Nicodemus for example. Or to put it another way Jesus Christ was the first-born from the dead in a PERMANENT way thereby defeating death.

Now, I know your name is revelationman but why are you so focused on the Book of Revelation? Is your post in reference to the last days and prophecy of what is going to happen? Just asking. Btw, can you please tell me who told you about the angel of the Lord? Or better yet which verses are you referring to as the angel of the Lord? Is it Revelation?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[inukubo]

This view is just the opposite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah_in_Judaism in that they do not see the Messiah as divine.

Which is why the Messiah was a stumbling block to the Jews. No one expected God incarnate.

 

[JaumeJ]

Quite drawn out Yeshua is a translteration which may be translated full to the Redeemer, Yah (The salvation of the One Who Is.)

 

[Crustyone]

It kind of depends on your overall belief system. For example Muslims believe Jesus existed but they do not think he is god.

JW believe Jesus died for them but they do not believe he is God and they also have a works based faith.

More importantly we do not save ourselves by our theology, God draws us to Him. So it’s possible to have spot on theology but still not be saved.

Jesus said come to Him as little children not as professors of theology. Anyone who thinks they are saved by what they believe, rather than what Jesus has done in their lives, is not saved. Any genuine Christian will know it’s not about them!

I don't know where you got your information on JWs, but although they don't believe Jesus is God, they don't practice a works based faith.

 

[Nehemiah6]

We DO have to believe Messiah/Jesus is 100% God and 100% [Man]...

And that is already 2/3 rds of the Trinity. But if someone cannot believe that the Holy Spirit is God, how can he or she believe that God will give them a supernatural New Birth by the power of the Spirit? The preaching of the Gospel includes the declaration that "YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN".

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Matthew 28:19
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Obviously someone doesn't have to intellectually understand the full concept of the 3 in 1 God. But they must fully respond to the 3 even if unrealized that they do.

For from the Father the Son was sent and the Spirit acts within the body and the Father acts in creation, moral and written law, essentially all things to bring everyone to the Son.

So in reality yes they must be aware and baptized into the 3 and 1 concept for new birth to occur.

1 cannot be acknowledged without the other 2.

I think this just comes so natural in Christian evangelism that the Bible will have the triune working as one that really if your evangelizing from Biblical scripture then the persons heart will respond to the 3 spiritual urges even if not fully aware of how all 3 are at play.

 

[JamOn]

Daniel's Vision of the Ancient of Days

9I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

This is about the end days

11I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. 12As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.



13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

 

[JamOn]

seems like a couple of , they brought him near before him.