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UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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#61
So what language does a man speak to God in, in which NO MAN understands?

1Co_14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Well I'm sure that's a mistranslation to lol. You guys kill me!
You have no idea what an unknown tongue EVEN IS and yet your QUALIFIED to say the word shouldn't have been added.

Do you see what I'm saying?

There is a TONGUE that is UNKNOWN to the ENTIRE HUMAN RACDE... and you're trying to buffalo people into believing that UNKNOWN shouldn't be there. And no, Pentecostal tongues babbling is not what that verse is talking about. But you'll never know what it means because you EDITING the bible to fit what your current knowledge level.

Is that INSANE or what? Why do you even use a bible?
"Unknown tongue" is talking about an unlearned language..one that the person didn't learn by natural means.

1 Corinthians 14:2 14:2 tongue. An unlearned language that hearers can understand only when it is translated. to God. Speaking in an unlearned language addresses God and is thus a form of prayer—unlike prophecy and preaching, both of which address people. no one understands. Since other Christians do not understand the language in which a Christian with this particular gift prays, they do not understand what is being said. mysteries. Probably the mode of communication: because nobody understands the language, what is being said remains a mystery.
(NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible)
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,680
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#62
Adding a word or changing words to add more clarity IS NOT the same as adding or changing words to take away clarity or change the meaning.
Unless you can prove that the translators of modern versions had the intention of removing clarity or changing the meaning, your comment is baseless slander.

The fiery flying serpents in the book of Numbers injected poison into the Israelites. After they were bitten, they looked at the fiery serpent on the pole and LIVED. That story is a foreshadow of the word of God.
The text says nothing about the serpents flying. You're adding to the word of God.

That story is a foreshadow of the word of God.
No, it's a foreshadow of the crucifixion of Christ.

I’m promoting the serpent on the pole and in ignorance you’re promoting the fiery flying serpents.
I'm doing no such thing. You're being ridiculous and self-righteous.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
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#63
Tongue is just another word for language it means the same thing. When we say mother tongue its the langauge you learned from your mother.

In Genesis 11 as its translated from Hebrew they called it language, am not sure why in the new testament its translated as tongues, it might have something to do with the greek.

Because KJV is direct translation from the original TONGUES as it says in the preface, we can also assume its language. The reason why it would be tongues is because its spoken, rather than say a language thats written down maybe? But thats kind of splitting hairs a bit. Its not dialects or slang or accents...they are completely different words not variations that make up a complete language.

The fact that God confused the langauages and gave everyone different tongues is interesting in Genesis they couldnt understand each other. Even today there is still confusion over languages. So on day of Pentecost it as a huge thing for everyon to speak in unknown tongues and then realise they were all praising God in different tongues. In revelation people are in heaven from every tribe, nation and TONGUE.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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#64
I believe *unknown* before tongue(s) in 1 Corinthians 14 is a good example. It has led to a lot of confusion, apart from the fact that *tongues* was prevalent in the 17th century as one of the meanings of "languages". But today "language(s)" without *unknown* would be more appropriate.

1 Corinthians 14:13
διόπερ ὁ λαλῶν γλώσσῃ προσευχέσθω ἵνα διερμηνεύῃ

English Standard Version
Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue [archaic] should [instead of *let him*] pray that he may interpret.

King James Bible [*unknown* added, otherwise closest to Greek]
Wherefore let him that speaketh in an [unknown ] tongue [archaic] pray that he may interpret.

Holman Christian Standard Bible [*another* added]
Therefore the person who speaks in [another] language should [instead of *let him*] pray that he can interpret.

International Standard Version [*foreign* added]
Therefore, the person who speaks in a [foreign] language should [ instead of *let him*] pray for the ability to interpret it.
Drifting from the old path. without the "unknown" there is no need to pray to interpret since "known" tongue or language that is easy to be understood has no need to be "translated".

Your example only shows even newer version added words prior to the word "tongue" or "language" to enlighten the readers whether it is known or unknown.

Here also, I would question your bracketed "let him" thus saying he is permitted to pray. What? The KJV is a direct command to pray that he may interpret while "should" is obligatory but sometimes it makes the statement less direct or blunt.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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#65
I don't claim the original writings are corrupt. The original writings are "the Bible" not the Masoretic Text, Textus Receptus, or KJV.

Regarding Easter, the underlying Greek word is translated Passover everywhere else. It should be translated Passover there, too..additionally the NJKV guys have corrected that error :)
Please bear with me. but when you put "the original writings" What do you mean? Is this a handwritten or in print? Because even the Masoretic text can be said of original writings of the Jewish scholars known as Masorites or you simply means the "original manuscripts" which no longer exist. If this is what you mean, I see that no original manuscripts are corrupt, the problem is that you cannot even offer me that kind of bible. I just hope you gave me one but, of course, I am not an expert to read and understand the Hebrew, the Aramaic or Koine Greek so I just needed a good English translation. I believe the KJV English text is the word of God.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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#66
I wouldn't disagree with that, however, these copies contradict each other in some cases in minor ways. Claiming that the KJV or Textus Receptus is the standard is an article of faith that is misplaced.

So, ultimately, the absolute undisputed inerrant word of God is in the autographs. We can get back to those, fairly accurately, but there is still a slight margin of error. Materially, though, either the Textus Receptus or NA 28 is still the Word of God.

By the way, my view of inerrancy relating to the originals, and not an eclectic text, is the exact same as those stated by the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy so it is not an oddball view.

The oddball view amongst evangelical scholars is Textus Receptus Only or KJV Only.

Knowledgeable individuals understand that the TR is not perfect, neither is the Masoretic Text. Neither is the Septuagint or the Nestle-Aland 28. Therefore, they are forced to fall back on the position that the originals are the inerrant Word of God, and the eclectic texts are a close, but not exact, reflection of the originals. To claim anything else would be intellectual suicide, and easily refuted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Statement_on_Biblical_Inerrancy

Once someone crawls through the biblical text with sets of notes such as the NET Bible provides, they can have an educated view on the problems with the underlying texts. They are all minor, and don't cause any material problems with significant doctrines, but to ignore them is simply to stick one's head in the sand.

You have to get pretty creative to explain some of these errors away. My explanation of the "unexplainable" ones simply realizes that the original writings were inspired, and sometimes scribes made minor errors.
Umm.. in actuality "KJV only" is just a strawman. Many of those characters you mention in your prior post simply not a KJV only guys. They just merely accepted the fact to be "KJV Only" created by their opponents because they defend the truth about KJV or their staunch belief that there must be pure words of God. God is preserver and he keeps his words. Realizing, a "KJV only" quoted other translation, cited Lexicons and other materials" simply means not altogether "KJV ONLY" but KJV FINALLY.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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#67
Textus Receptus has issues. For instance, Erasmus back-translated portions of Revelation..he did not have manuscripts for this portion so he back-translated from a commentary or the Vulgate..I don't remember which. After manuscripts were obtained, it was discovered that his back-translation was totally unique and not found in any manuscripts.

However, it doesn't make that big of a difference. My view is that KJVers simply have a puzzle with extra pieces added to it. These extra pieces largely relate to marginal notes that were included as scribes copied existing manuscripts. Other errors are mostly trivial and affect no major doctrine.

If someone wants to read an archaic version of English, more power to them. If that floats their boat, and makes them feel special, who am I to deny them their self-righteousness? :)
It just needs proof or becomes hearsay.
 

Kavik

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2017
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#68
without the "unknown" there is no need to pray to interpret since "known" tongue or language that is easy to be understood has no need to be "translated".
If 'unknown' is eliminated (which it should be), one is left with simply "language" - There's absolutely no indication whether, to those hearing it, it is a known or unknown language to them. Why would there automatically be an assumption that said language was known just because 'unknown' has been eliminated?? If it's known by the speaker and not those listening to him/her, s/he'd still need a translator/interpreter.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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#69
If 'unknown' is eliminated (which it should be), one is left with simply "language" - There's absolutely no indication whether, to those hearing it, it is a known or unknown language to them. Why would there automatically be an assumption that said language was known just because 'unknown' has been eliminated?? If it's known by the speaker and not those listening to him/her, s/he'd still need a translator/interpreter.
The point is there is NO need to pray. to interpret.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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#70
(Part 1)
This is going to probably take a few posts due to text limitations, and some of you have heard this before, but……

1 Cor. 14:2 – “For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.” One of the quintessential quotes in favor of T-speech, but it simply describes, real, rational language.

Let’s do a few things to this verse – namely, put it into a more modern ‘translation’, get rid of the added word ‘unknown’, get rid of the more archaic ‘tongue’ and replace it with the more modern ‘language’, and more accurately translate the word ‘understandeth’. A better rendering of the Greek word usually given as “understandeth” is “to hear with understanding”.

We now have “For he that speaks in a language, speaks not to people, but to God; for no one hears with understanding, thus in the spirit he speaks mysteries”.

One of the issues is the Pentecostal/Charismatic understanding of “praying in the Spirit” again, – it does not refer to the words one is saying. Rather, it refers to how one is praying. In the three places it is used (Corinthians, Ephesians, and Jude), there is absolutely zero reference to 'languages' in connection with this phrase. “Praying in the Spirit” should be understood as praying in the power of the Spirit, by the leading of the Spirit, and according to His will. In Pentecostal/Charismatic parlance however, the phase has come to be equated with modern “tongues”, i.e. when one “prays in the Spirit”, one is typically engaged in some form of T-speech.

Now let’s take an analogy –

If I attend a worship service in ‘East Haystack’, Alabama two things are going to be evident: one; there’s only going to be so many people at that service (i.e. there will be a finite given amount of people there) and two; the chances that anyone in East Haystack speaks anything but English is pretty slim to nil.

If I start praying aloud in say Lithuanian, there’s no one at that service that’s going to understand a word I’m saying. Even though I’m speaking a real language, no one there will understand my “tongue”. That does not mean or imply that no one else understands Lithuanian, nor does it imply that I myself do not understand what I’m saying; just no one (other than me) at that particular service .. In this sense, therefore, I am speaking only to God, since he understands all languages. To everyone at the service, even though I’m ‘praying in the Spirit’ (as defined above), to them, I’m speaking “mysteries”. An idiomatic way of saying “we have no idea what he’s saying”.

In this analogy, as well as the original passage, there just isn’t anything there that even remotely suggests the speaker does not understand what he’s saying. If there is, it’s because it’s being completely read into the text.

There is nothing mysterious about Biblical "tongues" – when referring to something spoken, they are nothing more than real, rational language(s); perhaps unknown to those listening to them, but always known by the speaker(s) – it’s their native language.

If the history of the Pentecost movement is examined, one fact is very clear: at some point, between 1906 and 1907, the Pentecostal church was compelled to re-examine the narrative of Scripture with respect to “tongues”. The reason for this re-examination was that it quickly became embarrassingly obvious that their original supposition, and fervent belief in tongues as xenoglossy, certainly wasn’t what they were producing.

This forced a serious theological dilemma — As a whole, either the Pentecostal movement would have to admit it was wrong about “tongues”, or the modern experience needed to be completely redefined. The latter option was chosen.

One would think it impossible to study the history of Pentecostalism without, at the very least, a cursory look at the ‘tongues issue’. Because the Pentecostal doctrine and understanding on tongues was completely redefined, this would seem to present a problem – how can the issue be taught by Pentecostals to Pentecostals? The answer is rather surprising. The entire issue seems to have been conveniently ‘forgotten about’ and for all intents and purposes, swept under the rug. Very few, indeed if any, Pentecostals are taught about this issue; most aren’t even aware that it ever existed.

In redefining “tongues”, Pentecostals looked to primary and secondary source works for an alternative explanation. It is during this time that, that (mainly) five German scholars promoted a fresh new approach to Biblical interpretation that purposely tried to avoid the trappings of traditional and enforced interpretations of Biblical texts, collectively known as “Higher Criticism”. Part of this tradition was examining “tongues” as ecstatic utterance, rather than the supposed xenoglossy as understood by mainstream Christianity for centuries.

As a quick aside, an important thing to note is that, prior to 1879, the term ‘glossolalia’ did not exist – it is a word coined by English theologian, Frederick Farrar (Dean of Canterbury) in 1879 in one of his publications

The Pentecostal solution was an adaptation from the works of Farrar, Schaff and a few others. These ideas were further ‘tweaked’ to more adequately fit their new notion of tongues. From this, the concept of “prayer language” as an explanation for the modern phenomenon of tongues-speech was formed.

Over a short period of time, a Pentecostal apologetic was built. The emergence of the term “utterance” was strongly emphasized - it kept the definition ambiguous as it allowed for a variety of definitions beyond real, rational language, it was something sort of related to language, and could be defended more easily. “Utterance” fit much better in the Pentecostal paradigm and did not require empirical evidence. ‘Natural Praise’ and ‘adoration’ became a feature of ‘tongues’, and then ‘heavenly’ or ‘prayer language’ further broadened the definition. The term ‘glossolalia’ was transferred in from academia and was given a Pentecostal definition. In short, the tongues doctrine simply shifted into new semantics without any explanation. Xenoglossy one day, prayer language the next.

The resulting implicit theology however was not a synthesis of revelation and philosophy, but rather a synthesis of trying to make sense of the modern “tongues experience” in light of the narrative of Scripture. A way to legitimize and justify the modern phenomenon by ‘proofing’ it in the Bible. The problem with this however, was an obvious overwhelming absence therein of anything resembling modern tongues. Call it what you will, but for this group of Christians, the result was a virtual re-definition of scripture with respect to the understanding and justification of modern “tongues”; a re-interpretation of select Biblical texts to fit the modern practice/connotation of what ”tongues” was perceived to be.

It's amazing how absolutely none of this is taught. It’s a topic that today is completely glossed over in the Pentecostal/Charismatic churches.
There's no way to get rid of the words of the English bible. I am not Pentecostal but there are other ways to explain in convincing fashion using the KJV against speaking of an unknown tongue. For sure still, the Bible (KJV) is my final authority and I am committed to defending this truth.

God bless
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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#71
By the way, I’m a Linguist, not a theologian and let me also add here that I am neither a so-called ‘cessationist’ nor a ‘continuationist’ – I do not identify with either term; in fact, I had never heard the two terms until just late in 2016. Cessationist vs, non-cessationist is a bit of a false dichotomy; gifts ceasing is mentioned only once in one short sentence and the remainder of the Bible is totally silent on the matter. The one place it is mentioned is rarely taken into context of the entire passage. As far as I’m concerned, quite frankly, since the Biblical reference of “tongues” is to real, rational languages, obviously “tongues” haven’t “ceased”; people still speak.
With due all respect that you are being a Linguist, The translators of the KJV especially are said to be known scholars and are linguists. Their advantage is that most of them are theologians. So who do I think has the best approach in terms of translation? In the instance, Richard Kilby, one of the translators of the KJV, a Hebrew and Greek scholar. as on one occasion, having heard a preacher give 3 reasons why a word was translated incorrectly in the new bible(KJV), Kilby later gave the preacher 13 other reasons why the translation was indeed correct- all of which were considered by the translators. Imagine, Lancelot Andrews, fully conversant with 15 languages, possessed with great ability in Greek, Latin, Hebrew, Chaldee, Syriac, and Arabic and these few to mention are not some ignorant translators of the bible.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,680
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#72
Umm.. in actuality "KJV only" is just a strawman. Many of those characters you mention in your prior post simply not a KJV only guys. They just merely accepted the fact to be "KJV Only" created by their opponents because they defend the truth about KJV or their staunch belief that there must be pure words of God. God is preserver and he keeps his words. Realizing, a "KJV only" quoted other translation, cited Lexicons and other materials" simply means not altogether "KJV ONLY" but KJV FINALLY.
Your assertion that the term "KJV only" is just a strawman is erroneous. It is an accurate description of the views of most if not all of the people previously mentioned. How they got there is irrelevant. They believe that the KJV is the only reliable translation of the Bible in English; some believe that it is the only reliable Bible period.

On what do you base your assertion, "God is preserver and he keeps his words"?
 

Kavik

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2017
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#74
With due all respect that you are being a Linguist, The translators of the KJV especially are said to be known scholars and are linguists. Their advantage is that most of them are theologians. So who do I think has the best approach in terms of translation? In the instance, Richard Kilby, one of the translators of the KJV, a Hebrew and Greek scholar. as on one occasion, having heard a preacher give 3 reasons why a word was translated incorrectly in the new bible(KJV), Kilby later gave the preacher 13 other reasons why the translation was indeed correct- all of which were considered by the translators. Imagine, Lancelot Andrews, fully conversant with 15 languages, possessed with great ability in Greek, Latin, Hebrew, Chaldee, Syriac, and Arabic and these few to mention are not some ignorant translators of the bible.
I'm not suggesting the KJV is in any way a bad translation - however, I don't think many of the added (typically italicized) words are all that necessary, and in some cases add confusion or misunderstanding to the text. It was indeed 'translated' by some of THE scholars of the day and is an as accurate translation possible for it's day. By that I mean that some of the wording doesn't 'translate well' in today's world. Many of the words are very archaic and can lead to misunderstandings ("tongues" for example). There are more modern versions of the KJV (I'm not overly familiar with the different ones), that as I understand it, try to update the language while keeping the original 'feel' of the text.
 

Kavik

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2017
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#75
The point is there is NO need to pray. to interpret.
I guess that depends - if the individual is attempting to translate what he just said into say Greek, but doesn't speak it all that well (which is likely why he used his native language to offer his prayer in the first place), s/he might be inclined to offer a quick prayer to ask that s/he be given the guidance to accurately translate.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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#76
Your assertion that the term "KJV only" is just a strawman is erroneous. It is an accurate description of the views of most if not all of the people previously mentioned. How they got there is irrelevant. They believe that the KJV is the only reliable translation of the Bible in English; some believe that it is the only reliable Bible period.

On what do you base your assertion, "God is preserver and he keeps his words"?
Umm, no I disagree. Peter Ruckman now dead teaches Greek in his own seminary. He cited Greek lexicons and passages from other English Bibles the same as others. Of them also believe in the purification of the English bible "...to make a good one better, or out of many good ones, one principal good one".
"Truly (good Christian Reader) we never thought from the beginning, that we should need to make a new Translation, nor yet to make of a bad one a good one, ... but to make a good one better, or out of many good ones, one principal good one, not justly to be excepted against."​
Simple and plain, they really believe KJV as their written Final Authority, not "only authority".
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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#77
Tongue is just another word for language it means the same thing. When we say mother tongue its the langauge you learned from your mother.

In Genesis 11 as its translated from Hebrew they called it language, am not sure why in the new testament its translated as tongues, it might have something to do with the greek.

Because KJV is direct translation from the original TONGUES as it says in the preface, we can also assume its language. The reason why it would be tongues is because its spoken, rather than say a language thats written down maybe? But thats kind of splitting hairs a bit. Its not dialects or slang or accents...they are completely different words not variations that make up a complete language.

The fact that God confused the langauages and gave everyone different tongues is interesting in Genesis they couldnt understand each other. Even today there is still confusion over languages. So on day of Pentecost it as a huge thing for everyon to speak in unknown tongues and then realise they were all praising God in different tongues. In revelation people are in heaven from every tribe, nation and TONGUE.
KJV wasn't a direct translation from the Greek and Hebrew...the KJV translators copied a lot from the Tyndale Bible. I am sure they referred to the original Greek and Hebrew, but they still piggybacked off the Tyndale Bible.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
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#78
Umm, no I disagree. Peter Ruckman now dead teaches Greek in his own seminary. He cited Greek lexicons and passages from other English Bibles the same as others. Of them also believe in the purification of the English bible "...to make a good one better, or out of many good ones, one principal good one".
"Truly (good Christian Reader) we never thought from the beginning, that we should need to make a new Translation, nor yet to make of a bad one a good one, ... but to make a good one better, or out of many good ones, one principal good one, not justly to be excepted against."​
Simple and plain, they really believe KJV as their written Final Authority, not "only authority".
Ruckman was a nut. He claimed the CIA implanted brain transmitters in the minds of the elderly, black people and children, as well as other really weird claims. He is noted for calling people "idiots" without attempting to discuss their questions with them. Besides that, he had three different wives. Even KJVers like the Independent Fundamentalist Baptists are ashamed of him.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,680
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#79
Umm, no I disagree. Peter Ruckman now dead teaches Greek in his own seminary. He cited Greek lexicons and passages from other English Bibles the same as others. Of them also believe in the purification of the English bible "...to make a good one better, or out of many good ones, one principal good one".
"Truly (good Christian Reader) we never thought from the beginning, that we should need to make a new Translation, nor yet to make of a bad one a good one, ... but to make a good one better, or out of many good ones, one principal good one, not justly to be excepted against."​
Simple and plain, they really believe KJV as their written Final Authority, not "only authority".
The phrase, "KJV only" does not mean "only authority". It means the belief that the KJV is the only sound/valid translation of the Bible in English. Whether strictly accurate or not, it is an appropriate designation. Get over it.

You haven't answered the question at the end of my post. Please do so.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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#80
I'm not suggesting the KJV is in any way a bad translation - however, I don't think many of the added (typically italicized) words are all that necessary, and in some cases add confusion or misunderstanding to the text. It was indeed 'translated' by some of THE scholars of the day and is an as accurate translation possible for it's day. By that I mean that some of the wording doesn't 'translate well' in today's world. Many of the words are very archaic and can lead to misunderstandings ("tongues" for example). There are more modern versions of the KJV (I'm not overly familiar with the different ones), that as I understand it, try to update the language while keeping the original 'feel' of the text.
I wasn't aware of the "unknown tongues" thing but that's definitely forcing an interpretation on the verse.