Is unconditional election biblical?
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Except what you do not understand or ignore is, Calvinism does not harmonize with the Gospel.
That is likely why most Christians who read of it being defended when it is converse to the Gospel are like, Whaaa? And when they hope to reach those who are being misled as Calvinists they are met with a stern sometimes rude offense so as to arrive at the decision, if it be God's will His Word will overcome.
God is Sovereign.
God is Omniscient. Of course.
God is Omnipresent. Yes, without exception.
God is Omnipotent. Yes, as He is God.
God is Omni-Genesis, the eternal source for all that exists, yes, that's the "job" description of God.
However, God is also wilful. And what can be overlooked is that God's will isn't a singular thing. In scripture it is triune, in a manner of speaking. 1Decretive, efficacious, will. *of something inanimate or abstract) successful in producing a desired or intended result; effective. Will that brings about whatever God decrees. 2. Dispositional will, that which is pleasing to God. 3. Preceptive will, the will exercised that intends order, rules, and or regulates behavior. (Preceptive defined basically) An example being the ten commandments.
1.) The Book of 1st Timothy chapter 2 verses 1 thru 6 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people.
2.) The Book of Romans chapter 12 verses 1-3
Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.
3.) The Book of John chapter 1 verse 47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
If all the world's events was pre-decided, all people's destiny preplanned by God, why would God inspire His word to all people? That they may learn and be moved toward His truth. Why does there exist scripture that informs us we have a choice. And those words that tell us to choose wisely.
Even when a passage tells us of God's will and in such a way as to say, God chose us in Him before the world was created, and His instruction tells us how to behave and comport ourselves that we be blameless, holy, before him.
What gets twisted and those ideologies that are then inserted into the words of God so as to comport with someone's ideology is , as example, when we are told God predestined those who are faithful in Christ for adoption as sons and daughters through the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ.
God is Omniscient and His will exercises itself in the triune manner as described above, and being human who can truly encapsulate the mind of God using such terms as would hope to explain His powers? And yet, we try. We think because the Bible says this and that about God that that is what there is and all there is. But that's not true. God's thoughts are not as ours, thank God.
Just because the scripture tells us God predestined those who would come to Him, He who was the Son, does not mean God made me to come to Him, my neighbor not to, the neighbor across the field to turn from God, etc... What the scripture tells us , in the scope of Omniscience, is God opened His grace to the world that all might be saved. And doing this He sacrificed Himself for the world's sins.
In that manner God predestined those who would be saved because God began that process with the irrevocable gift of His grace to the world. And then He begat Jesus, Yeshua, upon Mary that she bear the Savior of all people, specially those that believe, to life.
God did this so as to save the world. God preplanned Salvation for the world. All those verses that say He predetermined whom would come to Salvation aren't saying He played a celestial game like unto Duck-Duck-Go. You go to Heaven, nope you go into damnation, you go to Heaven, and so forth.
It means God's Omniscience and Omnipotence are part of His Saving Grace that He delivered to the world. And all that pertains to Salvation is part of His plan to save the worlds people from their sins. He planned that. That whosoever believeth in that, in Jesus, the Savior, the Message of that plan, shall not perish! But shall have immortal life.
God predetermined who would be saved means God's Salvation plan was to save the world's people from their sins. He graced this world with the gift of Salvation for all those for whom it would come to resonate as truth, and be saved.
The predetermination was the plan, the process, and the result of that plan coming to fruition when people would choose Christ because God's salvation resonates within them, because the message awakens the Godly spark within them, that which is within all God made of Himself.
The Beginning
(Genesis 1:1-2)
John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. 4In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
John 4:24 "God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
It wasn't to say God predetermined whom He would save and whom He would damn and in the end we'll all find out which one we are. Even if we only now think we have faith ourselves, it doesn't matter until we learn what God pre-determined and for whom, by name.
That's a really long response, rebuttal, however, I am weary of that argument that makes out that a doctrine such as was invented by Calvin interpolating scriptures to fit his ideal deity is sacrosanct. I realize the devout will not be moved to change. Perhaps it is a a feeling of assurance that they are what John imagined to define as his version of Elect. Perhaps it is fear of Hell should one deviate from what they've been taught or held as true for so long.
However, God gave us intellect that we may be thoughtful and discretionary and conscious as His creation. And I will not accept a fabricated deity such as that which John imagined to exist and call sacred, when what John describes as that which he believed did exist is that which one would pray salvation from!
A god that creates a race, the human race, in his image and likeness after he predetermines their fall from his grace so as to premeditate those he alone would save by his works, not their conscious awakening to His Spirit, so as to bring some home to him and send those others straight to the Hell he created to receive for his adversary and his angels and then opened to receive his chosen men and women as well.
No. That type of demigod is that which the world needs saving from.
And by God, that is the purpose, inspiration, and scope of this thread.
THINK!
And you won't let yourself be led to be a Calvinist!
Yes, that's a bit of passion there. But you know what? So to was Jesus' death on the cross.
Hallelujah! Thank you Father! Thank you for thinking us worthy. Amen.
That is likely why most Christians who read of it being defended when it is converse to the Gospel are like, Whaaa? And when they hope to reach those who are being misled as Calvinists they are met with a stern sometimes rude offense so as to arrive at the decision, if it be God's will His Word will overcome.
God is Sovereign.
God is Omniscient. Of course.
God is Omnipresent. Yes, without exception.
God is Omnipotent. Yes, as He is God.
God is Omni-Genesis, the eternal source for all that exists, yes, that's the "job" description of God.
However, God is also wilful. And what can be overlooked is that God's will isn't a singular thing. In scripture it is triune, in a manner of speaking. 1Decretive, efficacious, will. *of something inanimate or abstract) successful in producing a desired or intended result; effective. Will that brings about whatever God decrees. 2. Dispositional will, that which is pleasing to God. 3. Preceptive will, the will exercised that intends order, rules, and or regulates behavior. (Preceptive defined basically) An example being the ten commandments.
1.) The Book of 1st Timothy chapter 2 verses 1 thru 6 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people.
2.) The Book of Romans chapter 12 verses 1-3
Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.
3.) The Book of John chapter 1 verse 47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
If all the world's events was pre-decided, all people's destiny preplanned by God, why would God inspire His word to all people? That they may learn and be moved toward His truth. Why does there exist scripture that informs us we have a choice. And those words that tell us to choose wisely.
Even when a passage tells us of God's will and in such a way as to say, God chose us in Him before the world was created, and His instruction tells us how to behave and comport ourselves that we be blameless, holy, before him.
What gets twisted and those ideologies that are then inserted into the words of God so as to comport with someone's ideology is , as example, when we are told God predestined those who are faithful in Christ for adoption as sons and daughters through the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ.
God is Omniscient and His will exercises itself in the triune manner as described above, and being human who can truly encapsulate the mind of God using such terms as would hope to explain His powers? And yet, we try. We think because the Bible says this and that about God that that is what there is and all there is. But that's not true. God's thoughts are not as ours, thank God.
Just because the scripture tells us God predestined those who would come to Him, He who was the Son, does not mean God made me to come to Him, my neighbor not to, the neighbor across the field to turn from God, etc... What the scripture tells us , in the scope of Omniscience, is God opened His grace to the world that all might be saved. And doing this He sacrificed Himself for the world's sins.
In that manner God predestined those who would be saved because God began that process with the irrevocable gift of His grace to the world. And then He begat Jesus, Yeshua, upon Mary that she bear the Savior of all people, specially those that believe, to life.
God did this so as to save the world. God preplanned Salvation for the world. All those verses that say He predetermined whom would come to Salvation aren't saying He played a celestial game like unto Duck-Duck-Go. You go to Heaven, nope you go into damnation, you go to Heaven, and so forth.
It means God's Omniscience and Omnipotence are part of His Saving Grace that He delivered to the world. And all that pertains to Salvation is part of His plan to save the worlds people from their sins. He planned that. That whosoever believeth in that, in Jesus, the Savior, the Message of that plan, shall not perish! But shall have immortal life.
God predetermined who would be saved means God's Salvation plan was to save the world's people from their sins. He graced this world with the gift of Salvation for all those for whom it would come to resonate as truth, and be saved.
The predetermination was the plan, the process, and the result of that plan coming to fruition when people would choose Christ because God's salvation resonates within them, because the message awakens the Godly spark within them, that which is within all God made of Himself.
The Beginning
(Genesis 1:1-2)
John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. 4In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
John 4:24 "God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
It wasn't to say God predetermined whom He would save and whom He would damn and in the end we'll all find out which one we are. Even if we only now think we have faith ourselves, it doesn't matter until we learn what God pre-determined and for whom, by name.
That's a really long response, rebuttal, however, I am weary of that argument that makes out that a doctrine such as was invented by Calvin interpolating scriptures to fit his ideal deity is sacrosanct. I realize the devout will not be moved to change. Perhaps it is a a feeling of assurance that they are what John imagined to define as his version of Elect. Perhaps it is fear of Hell should one deviate from what they've been taught or held as true for so long.
However, God gave us intellect that we may be thoughtful and discretionary and conscious as His creation. And I will not accept a fabricated deity such as that which John imagined to exist and call sacred, when what John describes as that which he believed did exist is that which one would pray salvation from!
A god that creates a race, the human race, in his image and likeness after he predetermines their fall from his grace so as to premeditate those he alone would save by his works, not their conscious awakening to His Spirit, so as to bring some home to him and send those others straight to the Hell he created to receive for his adversary and his angels and then opened to receive his chosen men and women as well.
No. That type of demigod is that which the world needs saving from.
And by God, that is the purpose, inspiration, and scope of this thread.
THINK!
And you won't let yourself be led to be a Calvinist!
Yes, that's a bit of passion there. But you know what? So to was Jesus' death on the cross.
Hallelujah! Thank you Father! Thank you for thinking us worthy. Amen.
funny
I feel no obligation whatsoever
God allows people to go down the wrong path all the time
as you have done
I feel no obligation whatsoever
God allows people to go down the wrong path all the time
as you have done
if you love truth want truth God will give you truth. if you dont God will send strong delusion
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just thinking about this ^^^^^^^
a free will actually carries quite a bit of responsibility, both to God and His creation...human and otherwise
of course if you are preprogrammed for salvation or election as the Calvinist prefers to call it which is fine, then God takes all the responsibility for and from you
I believe this totally flies in the face of what scripture actually reveals as our part in salvation....and there is plenty of that responsibility to go around
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Yes, in respect to our first love.Hearing the word of God giving us the understanding to believe Him not seen . Its called the hearing of faith. Us hearing Him the Faithful and True one. Its what we begin with and end with. Ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches .
The foolish Galatian's turned faith upside down as if it was earthly inspired of men.
Galatians 3:1-5 King James Version (KJV) O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
The sect called the Nicolaitanes they were under the leadership of Nicole a man seen .They gave up their first love the hearing of Faith .Christ's working in us. The Spirit giving them ears to hear. He called them to repent . Rather than having a faith in respect to what the eyes see to include oneself. It can only produce a false zeal for knowing our Lord and savoir.
We have a working example in Revelation 2.
Revelation 2:1-7 King James Version (KJV) Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; (beleive God not seen) or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
The foolish Galatian's turned faith upside down as if it was earthly inspired of men.
Galatians 3:1-5 King James Version (KJV) O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
The sect called the Nicolaitanes they were under the leadership of Nicole a man seen .They gave up their first love the hearing of Faith .Christ's working in us. The Spirit giving them ears to hear. He called them to repent . Rather than having a faith in respect to what the eyes see to include oneself. It can only produce a false zeal for knowing our Lord and savoir.
We have a working example in Revelation 2.
Revelation 2:1-7 King James Version (KJV) Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; (beleive God not seen) or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
I suppose that is hard for any non-all knowing to know. If there is zero choice in the matter, what would be the point of anything? God has been working for His cause since the dawn of time, and His son still works in us. Why would He spend all the time making Himself clear if we only see what He makes us see?
I do agree with you that He gets all the Glory, including giving us choice and a way out...His Son, when we make the wrong choices. He wishes that no man perish, but He allows us choice. Again if not, why not just poof us all not to perish, since after all, He wants none to perish?
I do agree with you that He gets all the Glory, including giving us choice and a way out...His Son, when we make the wrong choices. He wishes that no man perish, but He allows us choice. Again if not, why not just poof us all not to perish, since after all, He wants none to perish?
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I would say we cannot give ourselves ears to hear what the Spirit is saying. Its the words of His book that can gives us the eyes of our new hearts to see, and ears to hear His understanding our new understanding..
I would offer as new creatures we can hear the gospel through the many parables given to us.
Note. . . (red in parenthesis) = faith the unseen eternal not of our own selves.
Isaiah 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
Isaiah 42:18 Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see.
Matthew 11:5The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
Luke 7:22Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.
It was the goal of Christ's ministry to preach the gospel. . giving men ears to ears His understanding. .We previously as the lame, we can walk after the Potters understanding.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see "not" might see; and that they which see might be "made" blind.
I would offer as new creatures we can hear the gospel through the many parables given to us.
Note. . . (red in parenthesis) = faith the unseen eternal not of our own selves.
Isaiah 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
Isaiah 42:18 Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see.
Matthew 11:5The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
Luke 7:22Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.
It was the goal of Christ's ministry to preach the gospel. . giving men ears to ears His understanding. .We previously as the lame, we can walk after the Potters understanding.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see "not" might see; and that they which see might be "made" blind.
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Good questions.
Romans 9:19-24
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
The same ones, asked and answered by Paul.
Romans 9:19-24
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
The same ones, asked and answered by Paul.
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You're really close. But its not words in a book that are the cause of our eyes to see and our ears to hear.
That book is for you to study the Language with which God Speaks. But it is only after your eyes and ears are opened by coming to Christ that you hear Him and recognize His Voice.
John 5:39-40
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
That book is for you to study the Language with which God Speaks. But it is only after your eyes and ears are opened by coming to Christ that you hear Him and recognize His Voice.
John 5:39-40
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
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Close but did not ring the bell. No cigar ? LOL
Its the living abiding words. . . the one Language by which God Speaks. We study it as that by which we can seek after His approval .
The unseen Spirit of faith.
Those Jews in John 5:39-40 .They searched the scriptures in respect to their outward flesh hoping it would profit . They did not testify to the flesh of the Son of man, Jesus . He made it clear it profits for nothing. But that which did profit the Spirit of Christ, that dwelt in the Son of Man, Jesus. If any man has not the born again Spirit of Christ they simply as not of Christ. They refused to come to Christ but like the disciples that walked away in unbelief no faith coming from God. It as it is written testifies of Christ.
Its the living abiding words. . . the one Language by which God Speaks. We study it as that by which we can seek after His approval .
The unseen Spirit of faith.
Those Jews in John 5:39-40 .They searched the scriptures in respect to their outward flesh hoping it would profit . They did not testify to the flesh of the Son of man, Jesus . He made it clear it profits for nothing. But that which did profit the Spirit of Christ, that dwelt in the Son of Man, Jesus. If any man has not the born again Spirit of Christ they simply as not of Christ. They refused to come to Christ but like the disciples that walked away in unbelief no faith coming from God. It as it is written testifies of Christ.
And Jesus proved in the Book of Matthew chapter 9 that faith in the spiritual power of God-Jesus would precede spiritual insight.
27 And as Jesus passed by from thence, two blind men followed him, crying out, and saying, Have mercy on us, thou son of David. 28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They say unto him, Yea, Lord. 29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it done unto you.
27 And as Jesus passed by from thence, two blind men followed him, crying out, and saying, Have mercy on us, thou son of David. 28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They say unto him, Yea, Lord. 29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it done unto you.