Is God A Moral Monster?
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I don't think you've been a member long enough to have seen my post made back on Aug 2...
check it out
(or, the readers may wish to):
Post #209 (and the LINK I placed in that post) - https://christianchat.com/threads/the-athiest-agenda.185608/post-3987758
check it out
(or, the readers may wish to):Post #209 (and the LINK I placed in that post) - https://christianchat.com/threads/the-athiest-agenda.185608/post-3987758
Sure there is. The Bible shows us the history of mankind's relationship with God, our need to be reconciled with him. His promise of future Salvation and restoration to Abraham and it's fulfillment in Jesus. Those who fled the comming wars and battles were allowed to join the Israelite's if they would be circumcized, work and obey Jewish laws. Those that didn't, perished. Or were supposed to. But the inheritance of the Hebrews was passed over to the Gentiles that came to believe that Jesus is Lord and when Jesus was resurected it proved his power over death and the law. I would suggest doing a word study on the Title of Lord. It's more than a name and has a different meaning the word god or name God. This world is a refinery a nd comparison between wheat and chaff mad sence to people that lived in the area. A more modern comparison might be Iron and slag.
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To [username] PS ^ , consider the following NT passages:
See what Jesus said... in these parallel instances (where the events of 70ad are being spoken of by Jesus [in all three])... note how the first of these is telling it from the perspective of "the king" :
--Matt22:7 - "But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city."
--Lk19:41-44 - "41 And as He drew near, having seen the city, He wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you that your enemies will cast around you a barricade, and will surround you and will hem you in on every side. 44 And they will level you to the ground, and your children within you, and will not leave a stone upon a stone within you, because you did not know the season of your visitation.”"
--Lk21:20,23 - "20 And when you see Jerusalem being encircled by encampments, then know that her desolation has drawn near. 21 Then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains; and those in her midst, let them depart out; and those in the countries, let them not enter into her. 22 For these are the days of avenging, to fulfill all things having been written.
23 But woe to those having in womb, and to the ones nursing in those days. For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and [...]"
See what Jesus said... in these parallel instances (where the events of 70ad are being spoken of by Jesus [in all three])... note how the first of these is telling it from the perspective of "the king" :
--Matt22:7 - "But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city."
--Lk19:41-44 - "41 And as He drew near, having seen the city, He wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you that your enemies will cast around you a barricade, and will surround you and will hem you in on every side. 44 And they will level you to the ground, and your children within you, and will not leave a stone upon a stone within you, because you did not know the season of your visitation.”"
--Lk21:20,23 - "20 And when you see Jerusalem being encircled by encampments, then know that her desolation has drawn near. 21 Then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains; and those in her midst, let them depart out; and those in the countries, let them not enter into her. 22 For these are the days of avenging, to fulfill all things having been written.
23 But woe to those having in womb, and to the ones nursing in those days. For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and [...]"
New International Version
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
This is why some say the Bible cannot be inerrant. Because the workings of man translated the original scrolls unavailable today and what we are left with are copies of copies of copies. And when verses conflict to be sure it is man, not God, at work.
Take that scripture you referred to, in the book of Numbers chapter 31 and compare to this and more concerning adornment:
Isaiah 3:16-24
Moreover, the LORD said, "Because the daughters of Zion are proud And walk with heads held high and seductive eyes, And go along with mincing steps And tinkle the bangles on their feet, Therefore the Lord will afflict the scalp of the daughters of Zion with scabs, And the LORD will make their foreheads bare." In that day the Lord will take away the beauty of their anklets, headbands, crescent ornaments,dangling earrings, bracelets, veils, headdresses, ankle chains, sashes, perfume boxes, amulets, finger rings, nose rings, festal robes, outer tunics, cloaks, money purses, hand mirrors, undergarments, turbans and veils. Now it will come about that instead of sweet perfume there will be putrefaction; Instead of a belt, a rope; Instead of well-set hair, a plucked-out scalp; Instead of fine clothes, a donning of sackcloth; And branding instead of beauty.
I would always be wary of a teacher or pastor that would lay claim God as sovereign creator is able to do anything He wishes with His creation, while His creation must obey rules of righteousness else be condemned by God at the judgment.
It's a rather simple conclusion then to make note that if the mortal clay is to be obedient and seek to be righteous before God, while God is entitled to be wicked because He is God and can therefore kill the unborn in the womb, have them cut out of their mothers while she is alive, and so forth, then the merits of righteousness would have the mortal clay stand as superior in moral display to that one that will judge them having committed any evil thing because He is entitled to do with His creation as He pleases. While His creation must assume a higher standard of comportment than is expected of Creator.
I've friends in Bible study circles I've joined over the years who arrive at conclusions after discussions of that nature.
Their take is, hold faith in Jesus, be still and hearken to the leading of His Holy Word, and be led not into the temptation of trying to figure out the God thousands of year old dead sought to confine unto paper.
When men think to speak for God the wicked nature they're said to be born with can be tempted to act and speak, as god when formulating a guide book that exalts control over human behavior.
All this talk about the Elect of God for instance.
What egoism it is to think God predestined "Steve" to be saved, while Joe is a dead Hell bound duck.
Forgetting the Book of Revelation and chapter 20 where we're told the books, plural, will be opened at the judgment and ALL people will be judged , the living and the dead, according to their works.
The Elect of God that God predestined are the worlds people for whom Christ's sacrifice and call to repentance would resonate.
That's who Jesus died for. The whole world's people since He took the sins of the world upon Himself on the cross. All that was predestined to occur. The elect , chosen, refers to that which God's grace encompasses and those would be, the "whosoever's" that believe in Him.
The elect are anyone and everyone who holds faith in Christ. Not only one's who God brings into his grace by HIS WORK, and imbues with faith in Him by HIS WORK in them, so that they are then saved eternally due to God's work and nothing to do with that person worked on having a choice in the matter.
For god so loved the world that He saved human automatons, that none whatsoever would be able to choose Christ therefore Christ did it all for them.
Those who think they're the Elect as Calvin and RT teach are going to be surprised when they stand at the judgment and the books of life and death are opened and they have to answer for their works when they thought themselves elect and above that.
John Calvin, John MacArthur, Piper, and other Calvinists and "celebrity" Reformed Theologians, the first in line.
Like Gomer Pyle said, "Surprise, surprise, , surpriseeee!"
Take that scripture you referred to, in the book of Numbers chapter 31 and compare to this and more concerning adornment:
Isaiah 3:16-24
Moreover, the LORD said, "Because the daughters of Zion are proud And walk with heads held high and seductive eyes, And go along with mincing steps And tinkle the bangles on their feet, Therefore the Lord will afflict the scalp of the daughters of Zion with scabs, And the LORD will make their foreheads bare." In that day the Lord will take away the beauty of their anklets, headbands, crescent ornaments,dangling earrings, bracelets, veils, headdresses, ankle chains, sashes, perfume boxes, amulets, finger rings, nose rings, festal robes, outer tunics, cloaks, money purses, hand mirrors, undergarments, turbans and veils. Now it will come about that instead of sweet perfume there will be putrefaction; Instead of a belt, a rope; Instead of well-set hair, a plucked-out scalp; Instead of fine clothes, a donning of sackcloth; And branding instead of beauty.
I would always be wary of a teacher or pastor that would lay claim God as sovereign creator is able to do anything He wishes with His creation, while His creation must obey rules of righteousness else be condemned by God at the judgment.
It's a rather simple conclusion then to make note that if the mortal clay is to be obedient and seek to be righteous before God, while God is entitled to be wicked because He is God and can therefore kill the unborn in the womb, have them cut out of their mothers while she is alive, and so forth, then the merits of righteousness would have the mortal clay stand as superior in moral display to that one that will judge them having committed any evil thing because He is entitled to do with His creation as He pleases. While His creation must assume a higher standard of comportment than is expected of Creator.
I've friends in Bible study circles I've joined over the years who arrive at conclusions after discussions of that nature.
Their take is, hold faith in Jesus, be still and hearken to the leading of His Holy Word, and be led not into the temptation of trying to figure out the God thousands of year old dead sought to confine unto paper.
When men think to speak for God the wicked nature they're said to be born with can be tempted to act and speak, as god when formulating a guide book that exalts control over human behavior.
All this talk about the Elect of God for instance.
What egoism it is to think God predestined "Steve" to be saved, while Joe is a dead Hell bound duck.
Forgetting the Book of Revelation and chapter 20 where we're told the books, plural, will be opened at the judgment and ALL people will be judged , the living and the dead, according to their works.
The Elect of God that God predestined are the worlds people for whom Christ's sacrifice and call to repentance would resonate.
That's who Jesus died for. The whole world's people since He took the sins of the world upon Himself on the cross. All that was predestined to occur. The elect , chosen, refers to that which God's grace encompasses and those would be, the "whosoever's" that believe in Him.
The elect are anyone and everyone who holds faith in Christ. Not only one's who God brings into his grace by HIS WORK, and imbues with faith in Him by HIS WORK in them, so that they are then saved eternally due to God's work and nothing to do with that person worked on having a choice in the matter.
For god so loved the world that He saved human automatons, that none whatsoever would be able to choose Christ therefore Christ did it all for them.
Those who think they're the Elect as Calvin and RT teach are going to be surprised when they stand at the judgment and the books of life and death are opened and they have to answer for their works when they thought themselves elect and above that.
John Calvin, John MacArthur, Piper, and other Calvinists and "celebrity" Reformed Theologians, the first in line.
Like Gomer Pyle said, "Surprise, surprise, , surpriseeee!"
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Jewish Virtual Library
Ancient Jewish History: The Birth and Evolution of Judaism
"Pre-Mosaic Stage (1950-1300 BCE)
...Early Hebrew religion was polytheistic;the curious plural form of the name of God, Elohim rather than El, leads them to believe that the original Hebrew religion involved several gods. This plural form, however, can be explained as a "royal" plural. Several other aspects of the account of Hebrew religion in Genesis also imply a polytheistic faith.
HAARETZ
When the Jews Believed in Other Gods
The bible is rife with references to deities other than Yahweh: The prophets didn't deny these gods existed, they just didn't think Jews should worship them
By Elon Gilad Jul 26, 2018
".... The Bible also recounts that the ancient Hebrews worshipped a god named Moloch, who was associated with the Ammonites and with child sacrifice. This worship too was stamped out by Josiah in the same reform (e.g. 2 Kings 23:10).
The historic books of the Bible were written by a “Yahweh only party” and are thus keenly critical of the worship of other gods in Judah. Still, it is clear from their description that polytheism was the norm in the First Temple period. It was only during King Josiah’s reform that the "Yahweh only party" really took control and began pushing other gods out of Judean minds.
But note that they didn't claim other gods did not exist. They only stated that their worship was forbidden by Yahweh, or as Exodus 34:14 has it: "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."
It was apparently only during the Babylonian Exile (about 586 B.C.E. to 500 B.C.E) and the following Second Temple period (500 B.C.E. to 70 C.E.), that Judaism progressed from the belief that Yahweh is the only god that should be worshipped, to the belief that he is the only god that exists. I.e., monotheism was born."
Ancient Jewish History: The Birth and Evolution of Judaism
"Pre-Mosaic Stage (1950-1300 BCE)
...Early Hebrew religion was polytheistic;the curious plural form of the name of God, Elohim rather than El, leads them to believe that the original Hebrew religion involved several gods. This plural form, however, can be explained as a "royal" plural. Several other aspects of the account of Hebrew religion in Genesis also imply a polytheistic faith.
HAARETZ
When the Jews Believed in Other Gods
The bible is rife with references to deities other than Yahweh: The prophets didn't deny these gods existed, they just didn't think Jews should worship them
By Elon Gilad Jul 26, 2018
".... The Bible also recounts that the ancient Hebrews worshipped a god named Moloch, who was associated with the Ammonites and with child sacrifice. This worship too was stamped out by Josiah in the same reform (e.g. 2 Kings 23:10).
The historic books of the Bible were written by a “Yahweh only party” and are thus keenly critical of the worship of other gods in Judah. Still, it is clear from their description that polytheism was the norm in the First Temple period. It was only during King Josiah’s reform that the "Yahweh only party" really took control and began pushing other gods out of Judean minds.
But note that they didn't claim other gods did not exist. They only stated that their worship was forbidden by Yahweh, or as Exodus 34:14 has it: "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."
It was apparently only during the Babylonian Exile (about 586 B.C.E. to 500 B.C.E) and the following Second Temple period (500 B.C.E. to 70 C.E.), that Judaism progressed from the belief that Yahweh is the only god that should be worshipped, to the belief that he is the only god that exists. I.e., monotheism was born."
