Is unconditional election biblical?

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Is unconditional election biblical?

  • Yes, unconditional election is biblical.

    Votes: 23 43.4%
  • No , unconditional election is not biblical.

    Votes: 27 50.9%
  • I don't know.

    Votes: 3 5.7%

  • Total voters
    53

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Not remotely true, even those marked out to be in Christ by His purpose, Ephesians 1, were, according to Ephesians 2:3 under God's wrath. Romans 5:10 is another text that shows we were enemies of God in time.

But you've stated you were never his enemy by assertion in other posts.

Scripture, that is, what God has revealed, begs to differ from your account.
My comment is not what I believe but what UWC had stated.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Umm, I have used scripture, you simply ignore 'whosoever'. Nop, whose boasting? Now, we'll try to consider your other scripture citation of Romans 8:26, but we will make by the context to properly understand what the verse means.

The believers are expected to suffer just like their Saviour who suffered. There is no exception for the whole creation groans and travails in pain. So that the Holy Spirit works in the prayer life of every believer, the Holy Spirit also helpeth in spite of our infirmities. This groaning that we cannot utter which the Holy Ghost intercede because of the grief or pain. This has nothing to do with the salvation of our soul. To stretch out this has something to do with the redemption of our physical body. The rest you need somehow to explain the sense, not quote them. You know it is easy to pick scriptures but be sure to make us understand.:cool:

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I wonder why God is long suffering to those who He already elected for salvation? Aren’t they going to be saved no matter what?🤔
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
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My comment is not what I believe but what UWC had stated.
That makes no difference as to my response. I answered your objection to HIS post.

Here is what you stated: "If you were marked for salvation before the foundation of the world, then there was never a time when you were an enemy of God."

You've avoided answering my post altogether. Those marked out for salvation were in time enemies of God. You said there was never a time this were true if we were marked out for salvation.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,538
3,502
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That makes no difference as to my response. I answered your objection to HIS post.

Here is what you stated: "If you were marked for salvation before the foundation of the world, then there was never a time when you were an enemy of God."

You've avoided answering my post altogether. Those marked out for salvation were in time enemies of God. You said there was never a time this were true if we were marked out for salvation.
In time, didn’t God elect people for salvation?
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
3,992
927
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The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I wonder why God is long suffering to those who He already elected for salvation? Aren’t they going to be saved no matter what?🤔
And I like that promise, it's in the scripture of truth.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
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In time, didn’t God elect people for salvation?
Nope. He did that before time.

But back to the discussion at hand.

You've avoided this:

Not remotely true, even those marked out to be in Christ by His purpose, Ephesians 1, were, according to Ephesians 2:3 under God's wrath. Romans 5:10 is another text that shows we were enemies of God in time.

But you've stated you were never his enemy by assertion in other posts.

Scripture, that is, what God has revealed, begs to differ from your account.
(You've claimed to have always loved God, implying you've never hated him, now you're claiming never being his enemy...OOOPSIE!!!!!!!!!!!)

And this:

That makes no difference as to my response. I answered your objection to HIS post.

Here is what you stated: "If you were marked for salvation before the foundation of the world, then there was never a time when you were an enemy of God."

You've avoided answering my post altogether. Those marked out for salvation were in time enemies of God. You said there was never a time this were true if we were marked out for salvation.
(You're still dodging this to protect YOU and your self-asserted integrity and enduring love for God while unsaved)

After you said this:

If you were marked for salvation before the foundation of the world, then there was never a time when you were an enemy of God.
I corrected you here, learn to accept refutation.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
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The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I wonder why God is long suffering to those who He already elected for salvation? Aren’t they going to be saved no matter what?🤔
Why wonder? God is in time awaiting the salvation of all his elect to take place in, well, time.

Longsuffering means he is patient for it, speaking in anthropomorphic terms, as to answer why are things taking so long according to man's mind. That's all in the context of the passage. The "usward" are contextually all those from the first verse on, or, plainly, the elect.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,181
1,177
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The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I wonder why God is long suffering to those who He already elected for salvation? Aren’t they going to be saved no matter what?🤔
You ask me for scripture to back up my statements and you are doing the same thing here. I know that you are quoting from 2 Pet 3:9. You have to go back to 2 Pet 1:1 to understand who Peter is talking to and it is "them that have obtained like precious faith", Peter even includes himself in his warning to them by using the word "us-ward". The natural man as described in 1 Cor 2:14 will not repent of breaking a spiritual law that he thinks is foolishness. He does not think he sins. His stony heart can not be pricked to feel quilt.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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You've claimed to have always loved God, implying you've never hated him, now you're claiming never being his enemy...OOOPSIE!!!!!!!!!!!)
You must have me mixed up with someone else. There have been seasons in my life where I have forsaken the Lord.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
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You must have me mixed up with someone else. There have been seasons in my life where I have forsaken the Lord.
That's disingenuous of you. All this time we've been speaking of pre-conversion experience, not post-conversion.

The thing is this; pre-conversion you hated God, and were his enemy (Romans 5:10). I've proven such with Scripture, but yet again, you think you beat the system and were never his enemy.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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That's disingenuous of you. All this time we've been speaking of pre-conversion experience, not post-conversion.

The thing is this; pre-conversion you hated God, and were his enemy (Romans 5:10). I've proven such with Scripture, but yet again, you think you beat the system and were never his enemy.
I was 7 years old when I got saved. I didn’t hate God before that. I just didn’t know Him, and yet, I was His enemy because of sin.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
God’s calling and choosing are never for salvation but for service. One of God’s called and chosen became a traitor.

Luke 6:
13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;
14 Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew,
15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes,
16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.

what are you even talking about

the above has 0 to do with what I posted regarding grapes

I guess you over quoted :eek:
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
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on closer look. how often do arminians like methodist and pentecostals talk about arminianism or jacobus arminius? i never heard it. not even once. but calvinists talk about calvinism and calvin all the time. try again
I have never referred to Calvin in my life. I consider myself Reformed Baptist. Like John146 said, I believe in adult believer's baptism by full immersion. Infants can be dedicated, as a commitment by parents to raise them up reading the Bible, praying and going to church, but only God can save them, and they need to hear from God as to when to be baptized, which should be sooner rather than later, after God calls them.

The only thing I know about Calvin is what I learned in church history, along with Arminius, and in theology, when we spent a week or so studying soteriology.

What I do know well is the Bible, which I have read cover to cover over 50 times in various translations in English, French, German and Spanish. I've also read the NT in Koine Greek, and a number of books of the OT in Biblical Hebrew. That is what I base my theology on - the Bible.

I also read a book by RC Sproule describing Reformed theology, which showed me what I believed about the Reformed viewpoint was NOT what Reformers believed. So my little straw men were easily knocked down.

This is why I keep recommending if you want to know more more about either Reformed or Arminian theology, you read the books by people who believe in it, to find out what they believe. Certainly Whisperer is outstanding in her wrong beliefs about Reformed theology, but too dogmatic and rigid to read actual books by the people who believe it, which is what a real scholar does. You don't have to believe it. But you do need to read it, to see if your knowledge of the topic is different than someone who believes and lives by it.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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In context, we find the Prophet speaking this Truth -
"You meet him who rejoices and does righteousness,
Who remembers You in Your ways."

- Isaiah 64:5a

My main point, is that God never said He views our righteous deeds as - literally in the Hebrew - 'a soiled menstrual cloth.'

And among the many passages I could use to support my understanding, we have the irrefutable passage from one of Jesus' three closest disciples -
"Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous." - 1John 3:7

All the passages you mention from Paul's letters as well easily fit into what I believe and teach in the churches. For Paul is not writing that behaving properly, with integrity and faithfulness - which God requires - but he was reminding those of Israel blood that the regulations and ordinances of the Law of Moses is of no benefit if our hearts are not right with God.

Nearly every one of Paul's letters tells the "believers" that they must "walk worthy" if they are to inherit the promises of God. And of course it is only by our "works" that we are proven worthy and faithful. We know that "Faith without works is useless."

I've shared a bit on this over the years, and even more so lately, as God is unveiling His Truth and calling His Elect to "come out from among them and touch not the unclean thing, that He might receive us." (2Cor 6:17-18)

Righteous Deeds (Thoughts on 1John 3:7-8) and Righteous Deeds (Continuing thoughts on 1John 3)

God's Wisdom and Understanding to all,
Michael

So you believe in works salvation? We earn our righteousness on our own merit? You need to start reading the Bible from cover to cover, without the tracts or other cult papers you are using to come to these heretical conclusions. And while you are reading, pay attention to context. Every single bad piece of theology can usually be unveiled merely by reading the words in context.

The words in context of the sentence,
the sentence in terms of the paragraph, the paragraph in light of the passage or chapter,
the chapter in light of the book,
the book in light of the Testament (or covenant)
the Covenant in light of the Bible and the Bible in light of Jesus Christ.

I am always bemused by people who think they can earn their own righteous by their works, when the Bible says the opposite!

"Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." Romans 5:18-1

We won't even getting into the arrogance of claiming you have earned your own righteous, when the Bible clearly points to Jesus, and him alone!
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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he isnt a heretic i have heard all his stuff and many of his debates. show me where he says the Spirit wasnt present when the gospel was given to an unbeliever and i will believe it.

Leighton Flowers believes in open theology. This is a new theology, and unfortunately my new pastor embraces it, although he did not tell the congregation before we called him.

He just preached from Job 1:27, saying Job and the Bible are wrong, God is not in control. IOW, God is not sovereign.

"Open Theism is the heretical teaching that denies the sovereignty, majesty, infinitude, knowledge, existence, and glory of God and exalts man’s free will. The fact that Open Theism is heretical is well established. Even Chris Fisher acknowledges that his Open Theist position has been deemed heretical by all of orthodox christianity."

https://biblethumpingwingnut.com/2018/09/08/leighton-flowers-agrees-with-mormon-apologist/

A good article for you to read, Melach!

In fact, Arminianism is the first step on the way to open theology. Arminianism exalts the will of people, rather than God. I am not saying that Arminians are not saved. I know many that are. But every person I know who believes in open theology, started as an Arminian, had some kind of crisis of faith or self, and dropped all that baggage of God being an Omnipotent, Omniscient, omnipresent being, and replaced him with a small, meaningless God who has nothing to do with Creation, and sending Jesus to die in the cross, that we might be saved. He is helpless, and impotent, probably sits around all day figuring out how to be good, because that is one of the only characteristics that open theists believe, is that God is good.

Of course, God is good. But he is so much more. It is heretical to limit God, to put him in a box, and only let him out when someone needs a bit of goodness!
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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In fact, Arminianism is the first step on the way to open theology. Arminianism exalts the will of people, rather than God. I am not saying that Arminians are not saved. I know many that are. But every person I know who believes in open theology, started as an Arminian, had some kind of crisis of faith or self, and dropped all that baggage of God being an Omnipotent, Omniscient, omnipresent being, and replaced him with a small, meaningless God who has nothing to do with Creation, and sending Jesus to die in the cross, that we might be saved. He is helpless, and impotent, probably sits around all day figuring out how to be good, because that is one of the only characteristics that open theists believe, is that God is good.

Of course, God is good. But he is so much more. It is heretical to limit God, to put him in a box, and only let him out when someone needs a bit of goodness!
Sounds just like the Pentecostals.

Is Gods sovereignty better than His goodness? Must you deny one to have the other?

Ro 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

For the cause of Christ
Roger