Cain's Offering

[garee]

As a matter of fact by your first explanation you stated that God raptured the church and closed the door and poured out His wrath during tribulation. If that is true then how can these so called post rapture saints come about? When God closes the door there will be weeping and nashing of teeth and no man can open that door. It is too late. So that could not happen. These saints cannot be converted during post rapture as you mentioned just by the idea that Gods people will not suffer wrath. These two conflict.

Yes there is no difference between what some call the "church" and "great tribulation saints". One bride of Christ .

It is appointed for all men having been judged. . . to die once and then comes the execution of that judgment . The dividing of the goats from the lambs is not the judgment or execution of the judgment . That kind of judgement as to who goes left and right has already occurred. Those who died not believing have been judged. Their temporal corrupted spirit has returned to the father who gave it conditioned on keeping a commandment and their corrupted body returns to the dust.. They will not rise to new life on the last day. Those who have believed will rise. Both will happen in the twinkling of a eye, Like a thief in the night.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

The key to understanding the proper timing is in the opening instructions .This is that not only has the Holy Spirit inspired the words but he signified them revealing the his unseen understanding .(the gospel) Then we can rightly divide the parables in which without Christ spoke not. The Amil position works the best .

Literalizing the tongue of God can cause a person to miss the blessing and then much can be added . like the division of saints from saints. And the idea of severity of the wrath . Christ will come on the last day like a thief in the night ..

Revelation 1:1-3 King James Version (KJV)The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

If we hear the words but do not mix what we hear as the signified understanding then its easy to come to other conclusions like dividing time periods.

Hebrews 4 King James Version (KJV)Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

 

[John146]

Good day Butterflyy,

I started out with the KJV, but it is not my choice translation. I would suggest using an app that allows you to see all of the major translations of verse all at the same time. This will allow you to compare how each translation stacks up against each other. For the most part, they seem to convey the same information, with just different wording.

It will also allow you to look up the definitions of Hebrew and Greek words, as well as the interlinear and many other studies. The app below is the one that I have been using for years.

https://biblehub.com/

And then you choose which you like best...again, making you the final authority.

 

[garee]

hey! that was one of my posts
it's probably my fault for not being clear enough about what i was trying to say.

i mentioned Yom Kippur because the majority of preaching & people talking about this say it is a sin offering, like those described in the law of Moses.
i think Genesis 4:3 is telling us that it's at a specific time they do this, and of the 7 feast days in the law that take place at appointed times, Yom Kippur is for atonement for the sins of all the people. it's two goats.
there are few details in Genesis 4, so each is significant. one of these significant things is the slain animal vs. the produce, yes ((of all the details that could have been given, why does the Bible point out that Abel keeps flocks and Cain tills ground?)) - and another significant detail is that Abel's is said to be 'firstlings' but Cain's is not described as firstfruits. so whatever the explanation of this event is, there are those two other things to account for: at a certain time, and something to do with firstfruits.

so i said, if it has something to do with firstfruits, if it has something to do with appointed times, if the sacrifices and appointed times in the law can shed light on what's happening here, a couple thousand years before the law, then Yom Kippur probably isn't the analogous feast, because it's got nothing to do with firstfruits.

but passover does. it's in the season of the first harvest of spring, at the beginning of the days of unleavened bread. and it commemorates a day in which the shedding of blood marked out the people of God's promise, so that they were saved from death - passover includes instructions about clothing, about eating, and not only a lamb slain but bitter herbs, and hyssop, and having faith.
Genesis 3 tells me about Genesis 4. in Genesis 3 i have death and a promise of salvation from it, i have a slain animal, i have clothing, i have faith, and i have figs. i have leaving a cultivated place and going back to where people were taken from, in wilderness. i have an appointed time. there are a lot of pieces here that fit

I would offer.

In Genesis 4 each is significant in searching out the spiritual understanding in the parable, mixing faith looking to the eternal "hidden glory" in what we can heard or see. . . sort of like the hidden manna spoken of in revelation.

More than one way to look. If we assume God slew a lamb. Rather than any other possible way of change by which they saw themselves naked before a God who has no form we could miss out..

Like for instance another possibility that occurred when mankind performed the will of another in the garden the glory of God departed leaving them naked without God .They felt shame .They were covered in corrupted flesh a work of the spirit of Christ . . the glory had departed.. the law that caused the corruption performing its work .

Then we could say that Abel was warned beforehand hand what to bring. And it was just a matter of one made a better choice. They both brought the work of their hands a common pagan practice indicating no faith, self worshiping of human hands.

God sanctified Abel's offering but Cain's he did not.

And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. Genesis 4:3-5


And the lord opened the mouth of Abel and the Holy Spirit preached the gospel to Cain who had no faith by which he could hear God and therefore could not please God as did Abel .

Abel the first apostle sent to declare the word of God, prophecy. And the first witness as a martyr whose blood used to represent spirit life cries out to be covered with the righteousness of Christ .

This will be in the glorious new heavens and earth in our new incorruptible bodies where the sun and moon the temporal time keepers will be under the feet of His bride the church . the Glory of God will be the light.

Rather than doing the righteous desire of the gospel. Cain desired to do the will of the father of lies, A murderer from the beginning.

And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.Genesis 4:6-8

The pagan foundation of all the kingdoms of this world. Out of sight out of mind. Kill the perceived competition and plow the body under. . out of sight. No witness of God.. . . the greater witness.

1 John 5:9-10 King James Version (KJV) If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

 

[49]

hey! that was one of my posts
it's probably my fault for not being clear enough about what i was trying to say.

i mentioned Yom Kippur because the majority of preaching & people talking about this say it is a sin offering, like those described in the law of Moses.
i think Genesis 4:3 is telling us that it's at a specific time they do this, and of the 7 feast days in the law that take place at appointed times, Yom Kippur is for atonement for the sins of all the people. it's two goats.
there are few details in Genesis 4, so each is significant. one of these significant things is the slain animal vs. the produce, yes ((of all the details that could have been given, why does the Bible point out that Abel keeps flocks and Cain tills ground?)) - and another significant detail is that Abel's is said to be 'firstlings' but Cain's is not described as firstfruits. so whatever the explanation of this event is, there are those two other things to account for: at a certain time, and something to do with firstfruits.

so i said, if it has something to do with firstfruits, if it has something to do with appointed times, if the sacrifices and appointed times in the law can shed light on what's happening here, a couple thousand years before the law, then Yom Kippur probably isn't the analogous feast, because it's got nothing to do with firstfruits.

but passover does. it's in the season of the first harvest of spring, at the beginning of the days of unleavened bread. and it commemorates a day in which the shedding of blood marked out the people of God's promise, so that they were saved from death - passover includes instructions about clothing, about eating, and not only a lamb slain but bitter herbs, and hyssop, and having faith.
Genesis 3 tells me about Genesis 4. in Genesis 3 i have death and a promise of salvation from it, i have a slain animal, i have clothing, i have faith, and i have figs. i have leaving a cultivated place and going back to where people were taken from, in wilderness. i have an appointed time. there are a lot of pieces here that fit

Thanks for the reply, and man does that clear up a lot! Opened my eyes. Your post was clear; it was a lack of comprehension on my part. There is sooo much needing learned, and would help to study events, feast days, times, etc. Am amazed at the knowledge of the people on this site, and at times feel inferior, lol. Just tells me more time time devoted to God's Word and actual study is needed.
Thank you again, have a blessed day.

 

[TLC209]

It is appointed for all men having been judged. . . to die once and then comes the execution of that judgment . The dividing of the goats from the lambs is not the judgment or execution of the judgment . That kind of judgement as to who goes left and right has already occurred. Those who died not believing have been judged. Their temporal corrupted spirit has returned to the father who gave it conditioned on keeping a commandment and their corrupted body returns to the dust.. They will not rise to new life on the last day. Those who have believed will rise. Both will happen in the twinkling of a eye, Like a thief in the night.

The Amil position works the best .

The Church which is the body of Christ and the saints are one and the same. This is true.

As for the goats and the sheep that has not happened. That will happen at judgement. Judgement has not happened. And all the saints who have died since the time of the first resurrection remain asleep! That is why when Jesus second coming He comes with the saints who were resurrected during the first resurrection. The ones who are fallen asleep will rise from the graves and those who are alive will meet them in the air. We do not immediately go to heaven. That has been a misconception. Therefore on judgement there will be a divison of sheep and goats. I pray we stand with the sheep on that day of the Lord.

Matthew 27:50 Then Jesus shouted out again, and he released his spirit. 51 At that moment the curtain in the sanctuary of the Temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook, rocks split apart, 52 and tombs opened. The bodies of many godly men and women who had died were raised from the dead. 53 They left the cemetery after Jesus’ resurrection, went into the holy city of Jerusalem, and appeared to many people. (NLT)

1 Corinthians 15:51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! 52 It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed. 53 For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies. (NLT)

Jude 1:14 Enoch, who lived in the seventh generation after Adam, prophesied about these people. He said, “Listen! The Lord is coming with countless thousands of his holy ones 15 to execute judgment on the people of the world. He will convict every person of all the ungodly things they have done and for all the insults that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” (NLT)

1 Thessalonians 4:13 And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have died so you will not grieve like people who have no hope.14 For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.
15 We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the believers who have died will rise from their graves. 17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever. (NLT)

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The primary purpose of the cosmos as per Psalm 19:1-4 is to defend
intelligent design and prove the existence of a supreme being. (cf. Rom
1:19-20.

Having already undergone a person-to-person encounter with God-- which
most people on Earth will never even once in their lifetimes experience --any
contemplation of the cosmos thereafter would've been redundant.

Seriously Webers.Home? How many times have you read your Bible? Why do you continue to read it year after year? Do you just read it once and never again because "any contemplation of the [Scriptures] thereafter would've been redundant"?

You want me to believe that after God revealed His plan of redemption in the heavens, not one single person looked up in awe, reverence, respect, praise, worship to God for His wonderful love, grace, mercy???

Not one father or mother took his/her children out to see … to point out that while we live our lives here, there is a time coming when our Redeemer will crush the head of the serpent? That's written in the heavens.

While satan has corrupted and perverted what God wrote in the heavens so that we no longer understand that redemption is revealed in the heavens, this does not negate what God did so that parents could teach their children until such time as we had the written Word of God.

The "glory of God" is not just the luminosity of the stars or the courses plotted out so they remain in place. The "glory of God" is the Redeemer, the Lord Jesus Christ (2 Cor 4:6; Phil 2:11).

To the unbeliever, God's eternal power and Godhead is revealed through the physical creation, so they are without excuse for their unbelief.

To the believer, God's eternal purpose is revealed as the heavens declare the redemption of mankind from that old serpent, the devil.

God never left His plan of redemption to the happenstance of man's faulty memory. God wrote redemption in the heavens so man could go out, look up, and see it in the heavens. Day after day, year after year, generation after generation.


Psalm 19:2-3 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Luke 9:23 - And He said to them all, If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.

Denial of self is recognizing my moral and spiritual poverty; for I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing (Romans 7:18). It is knowing and understanding that I am unable to serve God in my own will power, self-will, strength, ability, and power. We see this in the first three "Beatitudes."

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:3

Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. Matthew 5:4

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Matthew 5:5

Take up his cross is seen in Matthew 5:6; Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

I am filled by God's provisions (GRACE) found in Christ by placing my Faith exclusively in Christ and Him Crucified (Believing who Jesus is, and what Jesus has done). Therefore I receive all the benefits of this "Resurrection Life" by understanding that we have been planted together [Christ and ourselves] in the likeness of His Death [Romans 6:5, Psalm 103:2].

Romans 8:13, Zechariah 4:6 - Without Jesus you can do nothing (John 15:5)!!!!!

In agreement with what you said above, MessageOfTheCross.


Not in agreement here:

Without the knowledge of the Cross for sanctification, you will die (spiritually).

Some people have "knowledge" of the Lord Jesus Christ, but refuse to confess Him as Lord. Those are the ones who will die spiritually.

Only those who confess Jesus Christ is Lord will be saved.


Also not in agreement here:

If this person try to come through another door, they are a thief and robber! John 10:1

When we look at the context of John 10:1, it is not speaking of those who come to Christ for salvation.

Go back to John 9 and see the context. Jesus had healed a man born blind. The pharisees were in an uproar because Jesus had healed the man on the sabbath (John 9:14). The pharisees interrogated the man (John 9:15-17), his family (John 9:18-23), the man a second time (John 9:24-34).

Then Jesus spoke to some pharisees (John 9:40) and we read John 10. Jesus is speaking of those who come in who are not the Shepherd, but come in the guise of a shepherd. They do not enter in by the door, but climb in some other way (John 10:1). The true Shepherd enters in through the door (John 10:2). The sheep follow Him (John 10:4). The "stranger" (John 10:5) is the one who climbs in some other way.


If there is a verse in John 10 which you are going to use as it pertains to believers coming to Christ, use John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

But John 10:1 does not speak of the believer coming to the Father through the Son.

 

[garee]

The Church which is the body of Christ and the saints are one and the same. This is true.

As for the goats and the sheep that has not happened. That will happen at judgement. Judgement has not happened. And all the saints who have died since the time of the first resurrection remain asleep! That is why when Jesus second coming He comes with the saints who were resurrected during the first resurrection. The ones who are fallen asleep will rise from the graves and those who are alive will meet them in the air. We do not immediately go to heaven. That has been a misconception. Therefore on judgement there will be a divison of sheep and goats. I pray we stand with the sheep on that day of the Lord.

Matthew 27:50 Then Jesus shouted out again, and he released his spirit. 51 At that moment the curtain in the sanctuary of the Temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook, rocks split apart, 52 and tombs opened. The bodies of many godly men and women who had died were raised from the dead. 53 They left the cemetery after Jesus’ resurrection, went into the holy city of Jerusalem, and appeared to many people. (NLT)

1 Corinthians 15:51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! 52 It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed. 53 For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies. (NLT)

Jude 1:14 Enoch, who lived in the seventh generation after Adam, prophesied about these people. He said, “Listen! The Lord is coming with countless thousands of his holy ones 15 to execute judgment on the people of the world. He will convict every person of all the ungodly things they have done and for all the insults that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” (NLT)

1 Thessalonians 4:13 And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have died so you will not grieve like people who have no hope.14 For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.
15 We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the believers who have died will rise from their graves. 17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever. (NLT)

Christ is the lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world which having finished it from the foundation demonstrated it 2000 years ago.. The sheep's names as those elected to salvation has been established written in the books .Books that will be compared one to another .

As a creation already subject to death, There will not be a second trial as in double jeopardy. It is appointed for all men to die once and then comes the execution .Not the trial. The whole world has already been declared guilty .

There is no condemnation for the believer. Jesus has in effect sat in the judgment seat of Christ. .The father poured out his wrath .It satisfied the just demands of the law.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:19

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

No condemnation none, not some.

 

[TLC209]

Christ is the lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world which having finished it from the foundation demonstrated it 2000 years ago.. The sheep's names as those elected to salvation has been established written in the books .Books that will be compared one to another .

As a creation already subject to death, There will not be a second trial as in double jeopardy. It is appointed for all men to die once and then comes the execution .Not the trial. The whole world has already been declared guilty .

There is no condemnation for the believer. Jesus has in effect sat in the judgment seat of Christ. .The father poured out his wrath .It satisfied the just demands of the law.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:19

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

No condemnation none, not some.

This is not true. Yes we will not suffer judgement or condemnation but it doesnt mean we wont stand before God on judgement day. Scripture says He will judge His people. You cant make up doctrines based on a few scripture and cut out everything else.

 

[TLC209]

Christ is the lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world which having finished it from the foundation demonstrated it 2000 years ago.. The sheep's names as those elected to salvation has been established written in the books .Books that will be compared one to another .

As a creation already subject to death, There will not be a second trial as in double jeopardy. It is appointed for all men to die once and then comes the execution .Not the trial. The whole world has already been declared guilty .

There is no condemnation for the believer. Jesus has in effect sat in the judgment seat of Christ. .The father poured out his wrath .It satisfied the just demands of the law.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:19

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

No condemnation none, not some.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I disagree with the idea that the church and saints are two different understandings. The saints are Gods Holy People. Which is us who are born again of the Spirit. I am a saint in the eyes of God. The seven letters to the churches for the most part were rebukes and strong admonishing. They were accused of being lukewarm among other things. So the distinction between those disobedient churches and saints would only suggest that the saints were Holy and did not fall into those 7 churches. Which we see alot of in these dark times. Many false and lukewarm churches.

It is because you are rejecting the information that I gave to you regarding the fact that the church is mentioned 19 times in chapters 1 thru 3 and then suddenly vanishes from the narrative. So you are not taking that into consideration.

As I previously made known, the very fact that the elder is asking John who these in white robes are, demonstrates that they are not the church, but a different group.

Once the church is removed from the earth, that ends the church period. That great number of white robe saints which no man can count, will be people who will become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath. Though they belong to Christ, the are not apart of the church and are never referred to as such.

So id have to disagree that revelation is referring to saints as something other than His Children. There are many many references throughout the bible that refers to His people as saints. We are addressed as saints in many Psalms. So I do not agree that just because its referring to saints means that the church has been raptured.

Yes, you are correct in that, throughout the NT, the word saints and church are used interchangeably, but that is not true in Revelation. A distinction is made in the book of Revelation between the two. They are never referred to as the church, because they do not belong to it. They are the great tribulation saints who are never referred to as the church. In chapters 1 thru 3 only the word church is used. From chapter 4 onward, the word church suddenly disappears from the narrative. The reason for this is because Rev.4:1 is a prophetic allusion to where the church is called up, which is why we never see the word church within chapters 6 thru 18. This is not a coincidence, but is a God-given clue, which is one of many. If the great tribulation saints had been ready prior to Christ's appearing then they would have been caught up with the church. But because they will not be ready when the Lord comes for His church, then will not be caught up, nor will they belong to the church. They are saved saints. Israel is not the church. The 144,000 is not the church. Each are different saved groups of people. The church ends when the Lord appears and gathers us up.

You are right I myself do feel that Paul is referring to the second coming in that scripture about the twinkling of an eye. If you can provide scripture that suggests that saints means people who do not belong to the church Id like to see it. Because that is just a speculation not a concrete truth. It was a good observation I might add. Like I said I enjoy your responses. Your a really knowledgeable brother. I hope I do not offend.

1. Church mentioned 19 times within chapters 1 thru 3

2. Church never mentioned again within chapters 6 thru 18, only saints.

There's a reason for that. So you have to ask yourself the question, why is that?

The next time the church is mentioned is as the bride in Rev.19:6-8 and as the church in Rev.22:16

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The above are the great tribulation saints that we are introduced to in Rev.7:9-17. Anytime you read the word "saints" it is in reference to saints who missed the gathering of the church and became believers during the time of God's wrath. They are not the church.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. (KJV)

The correct translation of the above is "If anyone is destined for captivity, into captivity he will go; if anyone is to die by the sword, by the sword he must be killed.” Here is a call for the perseverance and faith of the saints."

In other words, regarding those great tribulations saints, if it is the fate of some to go into captivity during that 42 months, then they will go into captivity. If the fate of any of those saints is to be killed with a weapon, then with a weapon they will be killed. Whatever God has deemed for each individual saint, that is what is going to happen to them. The church is not on the earth during that time, because it is during the time of His wrath.

I done these studies since I was 14. Therefore, I am not interested in going over the same information that I have already gone over more times than I can count.

I find that God reveals His deeper truths to those who diligently search His word for the truth. Those people who have not, or get their information from reading the books written by men, adopt their teachings instead of devolping their own understanding from study. It's like these ignorant people who have adopted the belief that the rich man and Lazarus is a parable. When if they would just read it in its plain literal sense, it would mean exactly what it says.

Then you have those who believe and teaching annihilationism, ignoring the words everlasting, forever and ever and eternal, no rest day or night, the smoke of their torment rises up forever and ever. They blatantly ignore any scriptural reasoning that you give them.

Then you have the "soul-sleepers," who adopted this teaching from the writings of men, while ignoring all of the scriptural proofs showing the spirit being conscious and aware after the death of the body. You ask them how Jesus could make the promise to the man next to Him saying "truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise" and their apologetic is "the comma is in the wrong place. It should be after the word "today" so that it reads "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise." In doing so, the make Jesus sound like Shakespear in the park.

These ridiculous apologetics go on and on and on. I'm not buying it though, because I've done my studies and continue to do so. Those who believe that the church is going through the wrath of God, then they are truly not believing that Jesus took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves.

Sorry for the rant

 

[Ahwatukee]

but how do i know it's a sin offering? your explanation is just "it is"
there are offerings in the law of blood that aren't sin offerings - a vow or a thanksgiving offering for example, Leviticus 22.
((not that they had the law, but that the law informs us about precepts of offerings))
the presence of blood in and of itself doesn't tell me that it's for their sin that they are doing this.

Abel's 'works' are tending flocks, and he brings a gift from his own works just as Cain does of his.

"By faith Abel offered God [a better sacrifice] than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous when God gave approval to his gifts. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead."

"And the LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, (because it required shed blood), but He had no regard for Cain and his offering (because it had nothing to do with the shedding of blood, but represents His own works. This is the meaning behind this teaching.

 

[Ahwatukee]

And then you choose which you like best...again, making you the final authority.

No, I read all of the translations all of the time. I'm continually comparing them. I haven't settled on any single one. One that I have been reading recently is the "Berean Study Bible" and the "Berean Literal Bible" and then over to the "The New Living Translation." Then I will check the Interlinear. However, I no longer read the KJV as a base translation, because I think that we can move beyond that. I like reading translations that say "you" instead of "thou." I don't stick with just one translation. People get caught up on translations just like they do with denominations.

The word of God is my final authority, not the translation that I choose.

 

[TLC209]

It is because you are rejecting the information that I gave to you regarding the fact that the church is mentioned 19 times in chapters 1 thru 3 and then suddenly vanishes from the narrative. So you are not taking that into consideration.

As I previously made known, the very fact that the elder is asking John who these in white robes are, demonstrates that they are not the church, but a different group.

Once the church is removed from the earth, that ends the church period. That great number of white robe saints which no man can count, will be people who will become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath. Though they belong to Christ, the are not apart of the church and are never referred to as such.



Yes, you are correct in that, throughout the NT, the word saints and church are used interchangeably, but that is not true in Revelation. A distinction is made in the book of Revelation between the two. They are never referred to as the church, because they do not belong to it. They are the great tribulation saints who are never referred to as the church. In chapters 1 thru 3 only the word church is used. From chapter 4 onward, the word church suddenly disappears from the narrative. The reason for this is because Rev.4:1 is a prophetic allusion to where the church is called up, which is why we never see the word church within chapters 6 thru 18. This is not a coincidence, but is a God-given clue, which is one of many. If the great tribulation saints had been ready prior to Christ's appearing then they would have been caught up with the church. But because they will not be ready when the Lord comes for His church, then will not be caught up, nor will they belong to the church. They are saved saints. Israel is not the church. The 144,000 is not the church. Each are different saved groups of people. The church ends when the Lord appears and gathers us up.



1. Church mentioned 19 times within chapters 1 thru 3

2. Church never mentioned again within chapters 6 thru 18, only saints.

There's a reason for that. So you have to ask yourself the question, why is that?

The next time the church is mentioned is as the bride in Rev.19:6-8 and as the church in Rev.22:16



The above are the great tribulation saints that we are introduced to in Rev.7:9-17. Anytime you read the word "saints" it is in reference to saints who missed the gathering of the church and became believers during the time of God's wrath. They are not the church.



The correct translation of the above is "If anyone is destined for captivity, into captivity he will go; if anyone is to die by the sword, by the sword he must be killed.” Here is a call for the perseverance and faith of the saints."

In other words, regarding those great tribulations saints, if it is the fate of some to go into captivity during that 42 months, then they will go into captivity. If the fate of any of those saints is to be killed with a weapon, then with a weapon they will be killed. Whatever God has deemed for each individual saint, that is what is going to happen to them. The church is not on the earth during that time, because it is during the time of His wrath.

I done these studies since I was 14. Therefore, I am not interested in going over the same information that I have already gone over more times than I can count.

I find that God reveals His deeper truths to those who diligently search His word for the truth. Those people who have not, or get their information from reading the books written by men, adopt their teachings instead of devolping their own understanding from study. It's like these ignorant people who have adopted the belief that the rich man and Lazarus is a parable. When if they would just read it in its plain literal sense, it would mean exactly what it says.

Then you have those who believe and teaching annihilationism, ignoring the words everlasting, forever and ever and eternal, no rest day or night, the smoke of their torment rises up forever and ever. They blatantly ignore any scriptural reasoning that you give them.

Then you have the "soul-sleepers," who adopted this teaching from the writings of men, while ignoring all of the scriptural proofs showing the spirit being conscious and aware after the death of the body. You ask them how Jesus could make the promise to the man next to Him saying "truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise" and their apologetic is "the comma is in the wrong place. It should be after the word "today" so that it reads "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise." In doing so, the make Jesus sound like Shakespear in the park.

These ridiculous apologetics go on and on and on. I'm not buying it though, because I've done my studies and continue to do so. Those who believe that the church is going through the wrath of God, then they are truly not believing that Jesus took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves.

Sorry for the rant

You shouldnt rant. Just give scripture. Your words do not align with scripture. I mentioned erlier to you that the 7 churches that you keep mentioning were not on good terms. They more then likely would be condemned by the looks of it. And we can see this because of the number 7 attached to it. There is only ONE CHURCH. ONE BODY OF CHRIST. That means jews and gentiles are part of ONE BODY. What you are suggesting that jews are not part of the church/body is unbiblical and rascist.

Saints on the other hand when you refer to someone as a saint, they are Holy. Whether they are part of one of the 7 churches anyone who is a saint belongs to Christ. So I still dont agree and neither does scripture agree with your theory regardless how many years youve studied. Just show the scripture that shows these 144,000 saints repented during tribulation to validate your claim. Because in revelation it actually says the opposite! People still would not repent!

Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Revelation 4 says John was taken up in Spirit. Not the church. John was taken up. Now Paul says at the LAST TRUMPET ALL WILL BE RAISED FROM THE GRAVE as well as those alive will be transformed. THE LAST TRUMPET IS WHEN JESUS CHRIST RETURNS. The last trumpet is not prior to the tribulation.

Now look no one wants to go thru tribulation, but we are only servants. We walk by faith, not by our own desires. If God puts us thru that and tests our faith, who are we to argue with God or complain?

I can tell you feel very strongly about your personal efforts more strongly than rightfully dividing scripture. God bless you, even though you may not think so youve helped me strengthen my belief. I was open to changing my decision based on scripture. But you didnt really defend your position with scripture. I dont know where you got your information. I feel more inclined that scripture does not mention any such pre tribulation rapture after our discussion.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O LordGod Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

So after all the destruction upon the earth, after 6 trumpets, we have here the seventh in which now the Judgement has arrived and the wrath of God. So yes the wrath of God will be at the time of judgement. So you are right that God will not pour His wrath on the saints. That will be after the seventh trumpet, by then we will all be taken with Jesus Christ and the Judgement will have arrived. The day of the Lord. The tribulation is prior to the 7th trumpet.

 

[Guojing]

There is only ONE CHURCH. ONE BODY OF CHRIST. That means jews and gentiles are part of ONE BODY. What you are suggesting that jews are not part of the church/body is unbiblical and rascist.

You read him wrongly. The unbelieving Jews are not part of the body of Christ.

A group of them will, however, believe in Jesus as their Messiah during the Tribulation. They will then become those saints who will need to persist to the end, and not take the mark of the beast.

 

[John146]

I like reading translations that say "you" instead of "thou."

You do know that using “thou” makes it more correct? There are some passages that can be misleading by using the word you.

And as the English language continues to downgrade, we take the Bible along with it? No thanks. I’ll leave it alone.

 

[garee]

Yes, you are correct in that, throughout the NT, the word saints and church are used interchangeably, but that is not true in Revelation. A distinction is made in the book of Revelation between the two. They are never referred to as the church, because they do not belong to it. They are the great tribulation saints who are never referred to as the church. In chapters 1 thru 3 only the word church is used. From chapter 4 onward, the word church suddenly disappears from the narrative. The reason for this is because Rev.4:1 is a prophetic allusion to where the church is called up, which is why we never see the word church within chapters 6 thru 18. This is not a coincidence, but is a God-given clue, which is one of many. If the great tribulation saints had been ready prior to Christ's appearing then they would have been caught up with the church. But because they will not be ready when the Lord comes for His church, then will not be caught up, nor will they belong to the church. They are saved saints. Israel is not the church. The 144,000 is not the church. Each are different saved groups of people. The church ends when the Lord appears and gathers us up.

Because you must literalize the signified understanding in the book of Revelation. It is necessary for you to make the church disappear then somehow reappear for some unknown reason. The church as the bride of Christ never leaves the context of the bible .

The church is not reckoned after what the eyes see flesh and blood.,. The 144,000 is a number that represents all the saints on both sides of the cross according to the signified understanding...

Literalizing the parables is not the way to keep those things which are written within.

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

The Amil position or signified works the best.

 

[John146]

You read him wrongly. The unbelieving Jews are not part of the body of Christ.

A group of them will, however, believe in Jesus as their Messiah during the Tribulation. They will then become those saints who will need to persist to the end, and not take the mark of the beast.

I would add that enduring to the end is not a matter of eternal salvation for those tribulation saints, but actual survival. If those days were not shortened, no flesh would be saved.

 

[John146]

Now look no one wants to go thru tribulation, but we are only servants. We walk by faith, not by our own desires. If God puts us thru that and tests our faith, who are we to argue with God or complain?

Tests our faith for what purpose? And whose faith will be tested? The Church?

 

[Dino246]

And then you choose which you like best...again, making you the final authority.

Nothing in Ahwatukee's post suggested "choosing which you like best" or making the reader the final authority. That's your closed-minded bias poisoning your perception.

You stubbornly continue to hold to a fringe belief, and you use ridiculous arguments to defend it. Just read the version you choose and leave others to study the Bible as they see fit.