Is the doctrine of limited atonement biblical?

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Is the doctrine of limited atonement biblical?

  • Yes, Jesus died for a particular group of people and his atonement accomplishes their salvation.

    Votes: 14 46.7%
  • No, Jesus died for all men, without exception, and his atonement only makes salvation possible.

    Votes: 16 53.3%

  • Total voters
    30

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
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Again, you are the one that is stating that God elects who gets eternal life and condemns those who he wants to cast into eternal damnation
if you go back and read, i said even though He died for all men, who all choose darkness, the sins of many are borne by Him - who is the Light, having mercy upon whom He will.

He doesn't *want* to cast anyone into damnation. but we do what with our free will? we damn ourselves. He isn't the author of evil; He is Salvation from it.

are you a universalist?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
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You stated... that you believe God elects to heaven and that you do not believe he condemns to hell (I agree, but will elaborate on this), then you followed with... you believe the scriptures teach that God allows mankind a free choice to choose how he wants to live his life here on earth and by man's choice he condemns himself to hell (I agree, and if God casts them to hell is because the life they chose on earn to not serve God, brought this condemnation upon them), and then you follow with... you do not believe the scriptures teach that there are requirements that man has to do in order to be eternally saved and that the scriptures teach that eternal salvation is by God's sovereign grace without the help of man.



First, I never stated that man works to earn salvation and never insinuated such a false doctrine, but to believe in an act of love that God demonstrated on the cross through his Son to gracefully give salvation is not an act of work to them that believe. You stated that God allows mankind a free choice to choose how he wants to live his life here on earth and that by man's choice to not serve God he condemns himself to hell. If man can choose how he wants to live and he chooses not to serve God ultimately condemning himself to hell, then in the same manner, man can choose the gift of salvation that God offers and in choosing he decided that he wants to serve God, nothing to do with earning salvation.



Ephesians 2:8.9 states... For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Is faith in God to obtain the free gift of God works? It is safely to say that according to your view faith is not required because God elects without works. What I am trying to convey to you in the above is that believing or exercising faith in God is not works, just like Elijah called fire from heaven, it was his faith that allow God to cause fire to come out of heaven, it was not his works.

God is absolutely sovereign, therefore, he can call it as it was. He has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love, yet we did not come into existence until we were born. Question, did he choose those who did not serve him before the foundation of the world to come into existence? I am asking this question to convey that God is absolutely sovereign, he can call due to his foreknowledge, so he knows all existence prior to existence. Romans 9:11 says... for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. Now, Rebekah was barren and God in his sovereign called existence before the actual birth. Isaac's faith in God was the act that caused God's word to come to past and God beforehand knew that he would pray. Romans 4:17 says ... God calleth those things which be not as though they were and this is because of his sovereignty. 2 Chronicles 7:14 God says, if my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. This states that Israel had to act, nothing to do with works, same with believing, nothing to do with work.
I know where you stand and the difference between us is that I believe one has to believe, one decide if he what to serve God, you believe there is no decision, that God elects, but he does not sent people to hell. Being the later is correct that God does not condemn to hell, but that people choose to go there not serving, I will not state that you are introducing a false doctrine, the theology in elect and decision does not insinuate false doctrine, unless one says God sends to hell what Calvinism state.
SUNDOWNSAM, Do you care to comment on my post #125? You don't have to, if that is your desire, but I would be interested in your comments. I like your tone in discussing the scriptures and think that you are diligent in your studies and are knowledgeable of the scriptures.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
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We are discussing do man has the free will to choose to serve God or to not serve him and in your post you do not believe thy have that choice
i don't know where you get that idea. i thought i pretty clearly said more than once we have a choice. & that we all choose to deny Him given our choice, unless He intervenes. His intervention is Salvation. Jesus the Messiah is the Living Intervening Hand of Yah. His mercy made flesh, He Himself manifest among us.

do you remember 1 Samuel 10? it - like all scripture - testifies of Christ ((see Luke 24:27, 44; John 5:39 etc)). it must be, and is fulfilled, and being fulfilled in His kingdom.
Samuel is anointing Saul to be king, and he tells him several things that are about to happen to him - and not only thing that will happen to him but he tells Saul what Saul will himself do. what does that show us about Saul's free will at that time? it is suspended, is it not? as Proverbs 21:1, as Philippians 2:13, as Romans 9:16, as Galatians 2:20, as Ezekiel 16:6, as Jeremiah 31:33, as John 6:65, as Ephesians 2:1, as Habakkuk 3:19, as Ezekiel 36:26-27 & 37:3, Zechariah 7:12 & 12:10-14, Psalm 25:4 & 86:11 and Mark 5:41 -- as Matthew 9:32 "
nothing like this has ever been seen in all Israel!" as Isaiah 43:19.


Then the Spirit of the Lord will come upon you,
and you will prophesy with them and be turned into another man!
(1 Samuel 10:6)
this is a testimony to us, for our edification.

And let it be, when these signs come to you,
that you do as the occasion demands; for God is with you.
(1 Samuel 10:7)
this is a sign to the man who the Lord is calling to become the heir royalty: that when he hears the testimony of God from the mouth of the prophets, the Spirit will come upon him and change him into another man. the man of God tells him, that when God has changed him into another man, then he shall do whatever the occasion demands. not before, but only after God changes him into another man should he exercise his free will to do as he sees fit. then, God is with him. God, who changes him into a new man.

So it was, when he had turned his back to go from Samuel,
that God gave him another heart; and all those signs came to pass that day!
(1 Samuel 10:9)
look at what Yah did to the man He chose to inherit of His kingdom - for God is truly their king: the King of kings.
i saw that you had complained to FGC that he wasn't supporting his dialogue with scripture; can you say that this i am telling you, is not scriptural?
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
Again, you are the one that is stating that God elects who gets eternal life and condemns those who he wants to cast into eternal damnation, which is a total false doctrine that you are believing. We are discussing do man has the free will to choose to serve God or to not serve him and in your post you do not believe thy have that choice since God elects and condemn as he wishes according to your view.

You are missing the point, so before responding to a post make who you see what is being discuss. Let me make myself clear, I do not believe the distorted view you hold that God condemns to eternal damnation as he wishes.

the point as with most Calvinists here (who seem to be of the very hard core variety) is to cherry pick verses, twist what is said and try to lead you into a personal argument

failing that, you might be told that they are not a Calvinist and are simply believing what scripture states...while faithfully following Calvin's teaching

the point is often missed on purpose also in order to get personal and then you will be asked why you are so angry or some such thing which is irritating because you are not actually angry, but are rather frustrated or perplexed or even confused as to why nothing you say is dealt with in the way you said it

your point will never ever be considered so don't get too bogged down

we are not all like that :giggle:

you will also be asked if you are a universalist at some point and they know full well you are not

the really nasty ones here have been calmed down no doubt because of the many complaints about them using mocking terms, name calling and saying we believe in a fake god etc etc
 
S

selfdissolving

Guest
Isaiah 45:5-7
5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
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your point will never ever be considered so don't get too bogged down
try reading what i say instead of putting words in my mouth please.

he was concerned with our ability to choose. i said we have a choice. i said we choose death. he said his point wasn't about us choosing death it was about God condemning people damnation. i said we do that to ourselves because we choose death - which, he doesn't contest that we choose death. he accused me of saying God wants to condemn people, that God desires to damn people. i never said that. God doesn't want to damn anyone, but we have a choice, and we damn ourselves. no one is good. no one is without sin. he doesn't contest that. we have a choice; and that's what you get with humanity + free will + opportunity to deny your Creator: Woman chose death being deceived, and Adam chose death not even being deceived. do you blame God for that?
if men damn themselves, why am i accused of saying God desires to damn people?
do you believe in universal salvation? does Sam? he hasn't answered. would you judge God for not saving everyone?


so we don't have 'me never not ever considering his point' -- we have me considering his point, in agreement with him, and being falsely accused now not only by him but also by you. i'm not a calvinist: that's now somewhere between 39 and 52 times i've told you.

i'd like to please get back to talking about scripture and not projecting animosity towards imaginary -isms on each other. i called to mention an awful lot of scripture in the preceding post. if you are just here to make petty personal attacks & plug your hate-threads, please go somewhere else. if you have comments about the scripture, please, comment away :)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
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you will also be asked if you are a universalist at some point and they know full well you are not
so you're not? great.


can you explain why it's not God's desire that anyone be damned yet multitudes of people are damned anyway, and why that's just?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
113
man can choose the gift of salvation that God offers and in choosing he decided that he wants to serve God, nothing to do with earning salvation.
do you ever pray for someone to be saved?
why do we pray for people to be saved?
what are we asking, when we pray for them?
how do we know a need to pray for this?
 
S

selfdissolving

Guest
do you ever pray for someone to be saved?
why do we pray for people to be saved?
what are we asking, when we pray for them?
how do we know a need to pray for this?
consistent Arminians do not pray for others to be saved because that would violate their "free will".
i've discovered that most of the time Arminians cannot answer these types of questions in a satisfactory way.

The only truly consistent Arminianism is an open theism
 
S

selfdissolving

Guest

TooFastTurtle

Active member
Apr 10, 2019
460
247
43
Isaiah 45:5-7
5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Yes indeed God does actually cause peace and calamities to strike. This is yanked out of context to prove the Calvinist theory correct.

I would like to point out to the informed reader that they would get angry if I said things like "In calvinism God is responsible for all the sins of the world because He created it and predestinated it" but if the Calvinists quote Isaiah to try to prove their case, its OK? God creating evil is OK in that context?
 
S

selfdissolving

Guest
Yes indeed God does actually cause peace and calamities to strike. This is yanked out of context to prove the Calvinist theory correct.

I would like to point out to the informed reader that they would get angry if I said things like "In calvinism God is responsible for all the sins of the world because He created it and predestinated it" but if the Calvinists quote Isaiah to try to prove their case, its OK? God creating evil is OK in that context?
I wont get angry if you say that.


Strong's Hebrew: 7451. רָע (ra') — 667 Occurrences
Genesis 2:9
HEB: הַדַּ֖עַת ט֥וֹב וָרָֽע׃
NAS: of the knowledge of good and evil.
KJV: of knowledge of good and evil.
INT: of the knowledge of good and evil

Genesis 2:17
HEB: הַדַּ֙עַת֙ ט֣וֹב וָרָ֔ע לֹ֥א תֹאכַ֖ל
NAS: of good and evil you shall not eat,
KJV: of good and evil, thou shalt not eat
INT: of the knowledge of good and evil shall not eat

The Hebrew word ra is also used in Genesis to describe the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Or is it the tree of the knowledge of good and calamities?
 
S

selfdissolving

Guest
ra': adversity
Original Word: רַע
Part of Speech: Adjective; noun masculine; noun feminine
Transliteration: ra'
Phonetic Spelling: (rah)
Definition: bad, evil


Genesis 2:9
HEB: הַדַּ֖עַת ט֥וֹב וָרָֽע׃
NAS: of the knowledge of good and evil.
KJV: of knowledge of good and evil.
INT: of the knowledge of good and evil
Genesis 2:17
HEB: הַדַּ֙עַת֙ ט֣וֹב וָרָ֔ע לֹ֥א תֹאכַ֖ל
NAS: of good and evil you shall not eat,
KJV: of good and evil, thou shalt not eat
INT: of the knowledge of good and evil shall not eat

Genesis 3:5
HEB: יֹדְעֵ֖י ט֥וֹב וָרָֽע׃
NAS: knowing good and evil.
KJV: knowing good and evil.
INT: knowing good and evil

Genesis 3:22
HEB: לָדַ֖עַת ט֣וֹב וָרָ֑ע וְעַתָּ֣ה ׀ פֶּן־
NAS: good and evil; and now,
KJV: good and evil: and now, lest he put forth
INT: knowing good and evil and now might

Genesis 6:5
HEB: כִּ֥י רַבָּ֛ה רָעַ֥ת הָאָדָ֖ם בָּאָ֑רֶץ
NAS: was only evil continually.
KJV: saw that the wickedness of man
INT: for was great evil of man the earth

Genesis 6:5
HEB: לִבּ֔וֹ רַ֥ק רַ֖ע כָּל־ הַיּֽוֹם׃
KJV: [was] only evil continually.
INT: of his heart only evil every continually

Genesis 8:21
HEB: לֵ֧ב הָאָדָ֛ם רַ֖ע מִנְּעֻרָ֑יו וְלֹֽא־
NAS: heart is evil from his youth;
KJV: heart [is] evil from his youth;
INT: heart of man's is evil his youth not

Genesis 13:13
HEB: וְאַנְשֵׁ֣י סְדֹ֔ם רָעִ֖ים וְחַטָּאִ֑ים לַיהוָ֖ה
NAS: of Sodom were wicked exceedingly
KJV: of Sodom [were] wicked and sinners
INT: now the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners the LORD


https://biblehub.com/hebrew/strongs_7451.htm
 
S

selfdissolving

Guest
A further sidenote: the knowledge that God creates darkness should dispel your fear of darkness. It should propel you even further into the comfort of his arms.
 
S

selfdissolving

Guest
In Genesis 1 we have a good picture of God and his relationship to both light and darkness.
Genesis 1:1-4

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Before the act of creation, neither darkness or light existed. God was above and before them both. In his first act of creation, the state of the creation was that "darkness was upon the face of the deep." The Spirit of God was above this darkness. Then God created light, then God divided the light from the darkness. In the creation account, we see God above and before both light and darkness, bringing both into being, and doing what he wills with them.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
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consistent Arminians do not pray for others to be saved because that would violate their "free will".
i've discovered that most of the time Arminians cannot answer these types of questions in a satisfactory way.

The only truly consistent Arminianism is an open theism
actual Arminians believe total depravity - it's one of the 5 articles of remonstrance, link:
https://christianchat.com/threads/f...-jacobus-arminius-of-1610.188789/post-4089044


so i don't know who is an Arminian. i pray to God for people because i hope He will intervene in them, change their hearts and minds, regenerating them and conforming them to Himself. so that they can come to knowledge of Him, and have life and peace in Him. i've found people don't tend to answer such questions at all, not even poorly - but i find it easy to answer?

open theism is untenable. the argument is His omniscience isn't violated because knowledge doesn't exist until time passes and absolutely free creatures make decisions in the course of time, thereby creating knowledge. so God doesn't know what anyone will do before they do it because there's no such thing as knowing what will happen before it happens. who in the world believes their Bible & thinks that's true?? lots of people do :(
 
S

selfdissolving

Guest
actual Arminians believe total depravity - it's one of the 5 articles of remonstrance, link:
https://christianchat.com/threads/f...-jacobus-arminius-of-1610.188789/post-4089044


so i don't know who is an Arminian. i pray to God for people because i hope He will intervene in them, change their hearts and minds, regenerating them and conforming them to Himself. so that they can come to knowledge of Him, and have life and peace in Him. i've found people don't tend to answer such questions at all, not even poorly - but i find it easy to answer?

open theism is untenable. the argument is His omniscience isn't violated because knowledge doesn't exist until time passes and absolutely free creatures make decisions in the course of time, thereby creating knowledge. so God doesn't know what anyone will do before they do it because there's no such thing as knowing what will happen before it happens. who in the world believes their Bible & thinks that's true?? lots of people do :(
interesting, apparently Arminius had a lot of reformed ideas! also interesting some of the comments in the thread. we live in strange times.

i find these types of questions easy to answer also. if the Bible says it, then it's true.

and yeah open theism is a train wreck. I don't think people understand the gravity of holding to a belief that is contrary to Scripture.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
Yes indeed God does actually cause peace and calamities to strike. This is yanked out of context to prove the Calvinist theory correct.

I would like to point out to the informed reader that they would get angry if I said things like "In calvinism God is responsible for all the sins of the world because He created it and predestinated it" but if the Calvinists quote Isaiah to try to prove their case, its OK? God creating evil is OK in that context?

they are angry now

right now