Is the doctrine of limited atonement biblical?

[Nehemiah6]

I would agree if the drawing of all men were not exclusively the elect .Then universalism comes into play. As many as the father gave the Son all of them will come.

God elects none for salvation and none for damnation.

He offers eternal life freely to WHOSOEVER WILL TAKE OF THE WATER OF LIFE.
And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:17)

 

[posthuman]

The question you have failed to ask is why the Father gives some to the Son, and not others.

The standard Calvinist response is because God elects some for salvation. But that would make the drawing of all men to Christ a sham. So that is NOT the explanation. However if we see that those who believe receive the gift of the Spirit, and become children of God, as well as a part of the Bride of Christ, then it all becomes clear.

Just as Abraham gave Isaac the beautiful Rebekah as his bride, God the Father gives His Bridegroom Son the Church as His Bride. And the Church consists of those who have been saved by grace through faith.

What does John 6 say?

 

[garee]

God elects none for salvation and none for damnation.

He offers eternal life freely to WHOSOEVER WILL TAKE OF THE WATER OF LIFE.
And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:17)

Why murmur ?

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputingshilipian2:13-14


A born Christian will work the will of God that works in them to both desire and empower us to do His good pleasure. Remember he is of one mind and always does what so ever His soul pleases for he performs that which is appointed to us. He make our heart soft.

Why would one resist if he is drawing them seeing he give us the desires of our new hearts and a promise of eternal life ?

 

[posthuman]

He offers eternal life freely to WHOSOEVER WILL TAKE OF THE WATER OF LIFE.
And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:17)

amen the Spirit and the Bride say 'come'
who will come?
what does John 6 say?

 

[posthuman]

God elects none

does the Bible say that?

For being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth ​

(Romans 9:11) ​

​

this verse says God elects. what's the subject? elects for what?
it explains that His purpose in election is something to do with "not of works but Him that calleth"
what's that subject? what's not of works? what is instead, of Him that calleth?
doesn't John 6 say something about God calling people? what does it say?

hmm. interesting. but you say God doesn't elect anyone at all? where is that?

 

[TooFastTurtle]

does the Bible say that?

For being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth ​

(Romans 9:11) ​

​

this verse says God elects. what's the subject? elects for what?
it explains that His purpose in election is something to do with "not of works but Him that calleth"
what's that subject? what's not of works? what is instead, of Him that calleth?
doesn't John 6 say something about God calling people? what does it say?

hmm. interesting. but you say God doesn't elect anyone at all? where is that?

You cut off his quote, he said God elects none for SALVATION... Why did you leave that part out?

 

[posthuman]

You cut off his quote, he said God elects none for SALVATION... Why did you leave that part out?

because i know what his argument is. we've both been haunting the BDF for years together.
his argument is that there is no such thing as election, at all - he believes essentially that when God goes out for groceries, He simply pushes His holy grocery cart up and down the aisles & everything that happens to jump into the cart of its own accord, He purchases. Nehemiah believes that if God were to Himself reach out His hand and choose something from the shelf to call His own, He would by implication be choosing to damn the items that He didn't choose for His heavenly shopping basket. Nehemiah's solution to this perceived conundrum is that God lays down enough money for the whole store as He walks in, doesn't choose anything, and lets the various grocery items elect for themselves whether to be elected or not. i'm not sure if God gets a rebate from the cashier for whatever doesn't make its way into His grocery bags? but Nehemiah's view is that God only elects the shopping cart. His grocery list is blank - if no sundry items hop into the cart on their own, then so be it, God doesn't bring home any items. if all the groceries in the whole store cram themselves into His cart, He empties the shelves. who knows what He'll fit in His trunk and take home?

of course, this is all a terrible analogy. but let's let it have some completion at least.

see, the question comes up, who knows what God will get on His shopping trip? and the interesting thing is, Christ is preparing a place for us. He came and dwelt on the shelves with us, then went back to His Father's house to build a pantry for us. so that question of what's written on the Lord's receipt as He leaves the market becomes, how big of a pantry is Jesus building? is He going to have enough room? is He going to have too much room?

what do you think, my Turtle friend; on homecoming day, are there going to be vacant mansions in glory? built for what turned out to be no reason? and is there going to be anyone who He didn't know He was supposed to build a place for?
i think there's an obvious answer to that: of course not; He is perfect and all He does is perfect. He knows exactly who His sheep are; He calls them by name, and they come.

Nehemiah will say, that's because God saw His future self coming home from the store as He was getting ready to leave, and He eyed what future God unpacked on the counter. so He knew ahead of time that way what was going to choose itself to be chosen. i hear that answer tho, and i'm like, dude God built that grocery store from the ground up and He created all the groceries in it. when He made Mexican jumping beans He knew what He was doing.


but enough about weird mixed metaphors and human reasoning
what does John 6 actually say?

there are only two outcomes for a person: salvation or damnation. if God isn't electing anyone to either; God isn't electing, period. that's why i was comfortable lopping off his statement; it would amplify rather than muddle the thrust of his conversation. thanks for asking

whosoever may come -- but who actually comes? people God created, for sure. so to me this comes down to what the scripture actually says. so i want to know what the scripture says about whether God had a purpose for you when He created you, or if God has a stack of generic purposes and well, if you happen to turn up He'll find something for you to do.

 

[notuptome]

because i know what his argument is. we've both been haunting the BDF for years together.
his argument is that there is no such thing as election, at all - he believes essentially that when God goes out for groceries, He simply pushes His holy grocery cart up and down the aisles & everything that happens to jump into the cart of its own accord, He purchases. Nehemiah believes that if God were to Himself reach out His hand and choose something from the shelf to call His own, He would by implication be choosing to damn the items that He didn't choose for His heavenly shopping basket. Nehemiah's solution to this perceived conundrum is that God lays down enough money for the whole store as He walks in, doesn't choose anything, and lets the various grocery items elect for themselves whether to be elected or not. i'm not sure if God gets a rebate from the cashier for whatever doesn't make its way into His grocery bags? but Nehemiah's view is that God only elects the shopping cart. His grocery list is blank - if no sundry items hop into the cart on their own, then so be it, God doesn't bring home any items. if all the groceries in the whole store cram themselves into His cart, He empties the shelves. who knows what He'll fit in His trunk and take home?

of course, this is all a terrible analogy. but let's let it have some completion at least.

see, the question comes up, who knows what God will get on His shopping trip? and the interesting thing is, Christ is preparing a place for us. He came and dwelt on the shelves with us, then went back to His Father's house to build a pantry for us. so that question of what's written on the Lord's receipt as He leaves the market becomes, how big of a pantry is Jesus building? is He going to have enough room? is He going to have too much room?

what do you think, my Turtle friend; on homecoming day, are there going to be vacant mansions in glory? built for what turned out to be no reason? and is there going to be anyone who He didn't know He was supposed to build a place for?
i think there's an obvious answer to that: of course not; He is perfect and all He does is perfect. He knows exactly who His sheep are; He calls them by name, and they come.

Nehemiah will say, that's because God saw His future self coming home from the store as He was getting ready to leave, and He eyed what future God unpacked on the counter. so He knew ahead of time that way what was going to choose itself to be chosen. i hear that answer tho, and i'm like, dude God built that grocery store from the ground up and He created all the groceries in it. when He made Mexican jumping beans He knew what He was doing.


but enough about weird mixed metaphors and human reasoning
what does John 6 actually say?

there are only two outcomes for a person: salvation or damnation. if God isn't electing anyone to either; God isn't electing, period. that's why i was comfortable lopping off his statement; it would amplify rather than muddle the thrust of his conversation. thanks for asking

whosoever may come -- but who actually comes? people God created, for sure. so to me this comes down to what the scripture actually says. so i want to know what the scripture says about whether God had a purpose for you when He created you, or if God has a stack of generic purposes and well, if you happen to turn up He'll find something for you to do.

God elects none to condemnation. Men are sinners and sin brings condemnation. God decreed that sin brings Spiritual death. God decreed that those who come to Christ are passed from that condemnation unto eternal life.

God is sovereign and His decrees always come to pass.

God does not require a shopping cart as all things are His to dispose of as He pleases.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[TooFastTurtle]

because i know what his argument is. we've both been haunting the BDF for years together.
his argument is that there is no such thing as election, at all - he believes essentially that when God goes out for groceries, He simply pushes His holy grocery cart up and down the aisles & everything that happens to jump into the cart of its own accord, He purchases. Nehemiah believes that if God were to Himself reach out His hand and choose something from the shelf to call His own, He would by implication be choosing to damn the items that He didn't choose for His heavenly shopping basket. Nehemiah's solution to this perceived conundrum is that God lays down enough money for the whole store as He walks in, doesn't choose anything, and lets the various grocery items elect for themselves whether to be elected or not. i'm not sure if God gets a rebate from the cashier for whatever doesn't make its way into His grocery bags? but Nehemiah's view is that God only elects the shopping cart. His grocery list is blank - if no sundry items hop into the cart on their own, then so be it, God doesn't bring home any items. if all the groceries in the whole store cram themselves into His cart, He empties the shelves. who knows what He'll fit in His trunk and take home?

of course, this is all a terrible analogy. but let's let it have some completion at least.

see, the question comes up, who knows what God will get on His shopping trip? and the interesting thing is, Christ is preparing a place for us. He came and dwelt on the shelves with us, then went back to His Father's house to build a pantry for us. so that question of what's written on the Lord's receipt as He leaves the market becomes, how big of a pantry is Jesus building? is He going to have enough room? is He going to have too much room?

what do you think, my Turtle friend; on homecoming day, are there going to be vacant mansions in glory? built for what turned out to be no reason? and is there going to be anyone who He didn't know He was supposed to build a place for?
i think there's an obvious answer to that: of course not; He is perfect and all He does is perfect. He knows exactly who His sheep are; He calls them by name, and they come.

Nehemiah will say, that's because God saw His future self coming home from the store as He was getting ready to leave, and He eyed what future God unpacked on the counter. so He knew ahead of time that way what was going to choose itself to be chosen. i hear that answer tho, and i'm like, dude God built that grocery store from the ground up and He created all the groceries in it. when He made Mexican jumping beans He knew what He was doing.


but enough about weird mixed metaphors and human reasoning
what does John 6 actually say?

there are only two outcomes for a person: salvation or damnation. if God isn't electing anyone to either; God isn't electing, period. that's why i was comfortable lopping off his statement; it would amplify rather than muddle the thrust of his conversation. thanks for asking

whosoever may come -- but who actually comes? people God created, for sure. so to me this comes down to what the scripture actually says. so i want to know what the scripture says about whether God had a purpose for you when He created you, or if God has a stack of generic purposes and well, if you happen to turn up He'll find something for you to do.

Thanks for explaining it to me, to answer your question on if God has a purpose for people, the answer is yes and the purpose is to be reconciled to Him through Jesus Christ. Some people never fulfill their purpose and remain in their sins, some turn to Christ and are forgiven.

If the purpose is that God chooses some to salvation, there really is no good news to preach, the Gospel is bad news for most people and no genuine offer of repentance is ever there since no one can repent without God regenerating them first. It becomes a cruel joke of justice when these people are cast into hell for their sins to "display the attributes of God such as holiness and judgment"

 

[Nehemiah6]

does the Bible say that?

You did not complete the quote -- God elects none for SALVATION or DAMNATION. Big difference.

 

[Nehemiah6]

amen the Spirit and the Bride say 'come'
who will come?
what does John 6 say?

What does the whole Bible say? And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

Yeshua said, wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

The question you have failed to ask is why the Father gives some to the Son, and not others.

The standard Calvinist response is because God elects some for salvation. But that would make the drawing of all men to Christ a sham. So that is NOT the explanation. However if we see that those who believe receive the gift of the Spirit, and become children of God, as well as a part of the Bride of Christ, then it all becomes clear.

Just as Abraham gave Isaac the beautiful Rebekah as his bride, God the Father gives His Bridegroom Son the Church as His Bride. And the Church consists of those who have been saved by grace through faith.

------------------

I would agree if the drawing of all men were not exclusively the elect .Then universalism comes into play. As many as the father gave the Son all of them will come.

The question you have failed to ask is why the Father gives some to the Son, and not others.

The standard Calvinist response is because God elects some for salvation. But that would make the drawing of all men to Christ a sham. So that is NOT the explanation. However if we see that those who believe receive the gift of the Spirit, and become children of God, as well as a part of the Bride of Christ, then it all becomes clear.

Just as Abraham gave Isaac the beautiful Rebekah as his bride, God the Father gives His Bridegroom Son the Church as His Bride. And the Church consists of those who have been saved by grace through faith.

I would agree if the drawing of all men were not exclusively the elect .Then universalism comes into play. As many as the father gave the Son all of them will come.

--------------------

The question you have failed to ask is why the Father gives some to the Son, and not others.

The standard Calvinist response is because God elects some for salvation. But that would make the drawing of all men to Christ a sham. So that is NOT the explanation. However if we see that those who believe receive the gift of the Spirit, and become children of God, as well as a part of the Bride of Christ, then it all becomes clear.

Just as Abraham gave Isaac the beautiful Rebekah as his bride, God the Father gives His Bridegroom Son the Church as His Bride. And the Church consists of those who have been saved by grace through faith.

---------------------------

Posthuman post was well written and he does believe that salvation is available to all men. I cannot recall if he made a mention that God gives some to the Son, but from reading his post it is clear that he is not supporting calvinism, but that those who believe those the Father gives the son.

Calvinism is a completely false teaching, contrary to the truth of the word of God, what God made clear when he first spoke. I provided a video on Jacob Prasch talking about calvinism, and he is clear where this doctrine originated from. My brother brought about a good question... Was Adam elected? I would ask it this way, being that Adam fell, was he chosen before the foundation of the world? If one answers yes, then my next question would be... How could he have fallen if he was chosen before the foundation of the world? God who is sovereign, his sovereignty is shown in his omniscience.

Judas betrayed Yeshua, did God created Judas to betray Yeshua or was it through the greed of money that he betrayed Yeshua? With this being said, all who believe that God literally hand picks who gets eternal life and who goes to eternal damnation, not only indulges in a false doctrine of the salvation that God offer, but there God is not the God of the bible. Not to mention, if God "OFFERs" salvation this mean that anyone can accepted it.

All you calvinism can throw all the questions you want, but the fact that your view is a false doctrine and not scriptural, instead of one responding to your questions, you should be rebuked for distorting the truth of God's word, what God made clear when he first spoke.

john calvin knew exactly what he was doing when he deliberately distorted the word of God and john macarthur who also is a calvinist is no different, he not only believes that God chooses who to eternal life and who he condemns to eternal damnation without a choice, but he teaches that one can take the mark of the beast and still be saved. The fact is that these wolves are covered with sheep skin, appearing to be angels of light, but God is dimming the lights so that these wolves in sheep clothing can be seen and john piper is no different. It is all about money with these men, how much they can generate, but many are too blind to see this.

 

[Flint321]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[posthuman]

What does the whole Bible say? And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

So you just answered the question you said I didn't address, and you answered it the same way I did, because if you'll go back and read more carefully what I said - what Jesus says in John 6 - it is the same. Whosoever may come, but who comes of their own will? No one. We loved darkness rather than light, until He changed us.

Romans 9:16
So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

It's not of man's will.

John 1:12-13
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

It's not of the will of the flesh.

That's what scripture says.
It really doesn't matter whether you like that or not; you have no place to accuse God of evil simply because He has compassion in whom He will.

 

[posthuman]

You did not complete the quote -- God elects none for SALVATION or DAMNATION. Big difference.

So what do you say, does He elect anyone at all?

 

[posthuman]

What does the whole Bible say? And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

If Christ came into the world and drew all men to Him, all day long holding out His hands to a stiff-necked people who love darkness rather than light, then why do you call His drawing a sham? What you just quoted answers your own objection: this is the condemnation, all are without excuse. That's not a sham; that's perfect justice and righteous judgment.

 

[posthuman]

Thanks for explaining it to me, to answer your question on if God has a purpose for people, the answer is yes and the purpose is to be reconciled to Him through Jesus Christ. Some people never fulfill their purpose and remain in their sins, some turn to Christ and are forgiven.

If the purpose is that God chooses some to salvation, there really is no good news to preach, the Gospel is bad news for most people and no genuine offer of repentance is ever there since no one can repent without God regenerating them first. It becomes a cruel joke of justice when these people are cast into hell for their sins to "display the attributes of God such as holiness and judgment"

Who are you oh turtle, to answer back to God?
What if He bore with great patience vessels fitted to destruction in order to show His power and righteousness to those vessels fitted fo His mercy?
Does He have right over His own clay or not?

 

[fredoheaven]

amen the Spirit and the Bride say 'come'
who will come?

Spirit and the bride invitation is to 'come', and who will come accordingly to this verse? Those 'whososever will'

 

[TooFastTurtle]

Who are you oh turtle, to answer back to God?
What if He bore with great patience vessels fitted to destruction in order to show His power and righteousness to those vessels fitted fo His mercy?
Does He have right over His own clay or not?

Jeremiah 18 tells us all about the clay.

Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

How do we become a good vessel?

2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

You have not looked at the whole counsel of God when it comes to this topic. We are free to work for God or against God, that is just the truth of it, otherwise there is no room for God to judge anyone, as the early Church also argued, if man is not free to obey or disobey, no man is to be commended or blamed.

 

[posthuman]

Spirit and the bride invitation is to 'come', and who will come accordingly to this verse? Those 'whososever will'

Who is whosoever according to John 6?