WHEN IS THE RAPTURE IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE GT?

[DeighAnn]

Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Zechariah 9:10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.


Once again, not only what is said, but of course no pre trib trip to earth mentioned

 

[Absolutely]

THERE IS NO PRE TRIBULATION COMING OF CHRIST. HE HAS ALREADY COME AS THE LAMB OF GOD, HE IS RETURNING FOR THE DAY OF VENGEANCE.

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.


So easy to shoot down postrib rature
Whata hard job trying to defend such a poorly thought out "postrib rapture"
Really bad doctrine.

 

[JaumeJ]

THERE IS NO PRE TRIBULATION COMING OF CHRIST. HE HAS ALREADY COME AS THE LAMB OF GOD, HE IS RETURNING FOR THE DAY OF VENGEANCE.

 

[Absolutely]

THERE IS NO PRE TRIBULATION COMING OF CHRIST. HE HAS ALREADY COME AS THE LAMB OF GOD, HE IS RETURNING FOR THE DAY OF VENGEANCE.

Then there must be proof.
Show is a postrib rapture verse.
Just one

 

[JaumeJ]

Revelation. Thessolonicans. Peter.

 

[Mii]

I would like to jump in on this discussion, but I suppose the most pressing question for me is...why does it matter when exactly?

The rapture doctrines I have heard I very nearly hiss at, it's something that fills me with revulsion at times. So many "believers" have pined for it and put so much hope on one moment that they are missing out on the work that he called us to collectively.


It's one of the most warped things out there. I am not saying the Millennial Kingdom is not a thing by the way...by NO means. Simply that by certain interpretations, there is no rapture as has been popularized in Left Behind and less well known "this is the end" which was a hollywood production, and I'm sure there are many more. Those were the only two I exposed myself to, and have the memories to provide enough of a picture of the distortions.


One thing is certain, time is short. I'm not suggesting that all here aren't focusing on the harvest...but many a person I have spoken with is distracted by this rapture doctrine...it is irrelevant. If he wants you with him, you will be. Through martyrdom or translation. If he wants us all collectively with him (translated), great! I simply don't see it...and I thank the Lord for redirecting my focus.

Definitely he won't miss his own wedding, that much I do know

 

[Ahwatukee]

I would like to jump in on this discussion, but I suppose the most pressing question for me is...why does it matter when exactly?

Hello Mii,

simply, because Jesus told us to be watching and ready, because we would not know at what time He would be coming to get us. The right action is to be ready for His imminent appearing. Those who believe and teach that the church is going to go through God's wrath, are no looking for the Lord's imminent appearing, but are looking for God's wrath first. By doing so, they are not truly believing that Jesus took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves. Going through the wrath of God is not an honor. Enduring the trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would have which come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness is honorable. Going through the wrath of God is not.

The rapture doctrines I have heard I very nearly hiss at, it's something that fills me with revulsion at times. So many "believers" have pined for it and put so much hope on one moment that they are missing out on the work that he called us to collectively.

It's funny that you should use the words "put so much hope on one moment," because that event is called "the blessed hope."

"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men. It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age, as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

It would be no "blessed hope" and there would be no reason to comfort one another, if believers first had to go through God's wrath.

It's one of the most warped things out there. I am not saying the Millennial Kingdom is not a thing by the way...by NO means. Simply that by certain interpretations, there is no rapture as has been popularized in Left Behind and less well known "this is the end" which was a Hollywood production, and I'm sure there are many more. Those were the only two I exposed myself to, and have the memories to provide enough of a picture of the distortions.

Regarding the above, you obviously have not studied the scriptures regarding this very important promise made by the Lord. It has nothing to do with Hollywood, but the truth of God's word. Those who are waiting and watching are doing what the Lord said to do. Those who looking to first go through the wrath of God, are not doing what the Lord said.

One thing is certain, time is short. I'm not suggesting that all here aren't focusing on the harvest...but many a person I have spoken with is distracted by this rapture doctrine...it is irrelevant.

It is no distraction to be watching and ready for the Lord's appearing to gather His church, for he told us to so. As believers, we should be continuing in faith and looking for His coming. Regarding end-time events which is given in detail in the book of Revelation, there is a blessing for those who read aloud the words of that book and those who hear it and take it to heart.

The passive attitude of "when it happens it happens" is not watching for the Lord's appearing.

 

[Mii]

Hello Mii,

simply, because Jesus told us to be watching and ready, because we would not know at what time He would be coming to get us. The right action is to be ready for His imminent appearing. Those who believe and teach that the church is going to go through God's wrath, are no looking for the Lord's imminent appearing, but are looking for God's wrath first. By doing so, they are not truly believing that Jesus took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves. Going through the wrath of God is not an honor. Enduring the trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would have which come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness is honorable. Going through the wrath of God is not.



It's funny that you should use the words "put so much hope on one moment," because that event is called "the blessed hope."

"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men. It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age, as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

It would be no "blessed hope" and there would be no reason to comfort one another, if believers first had to go through God's wrath.



Regarding the above, you obviously have not studied the scriptures regarding this very important promise made by the Lord. It has nothing to do with Hollywood, but the truth of God's word. Those who are waiting and watching are doing what the Lord said to do. Those who looking to first go through the wrath of God, are not doing what the Lord said.



It is no distraction to be watching and ready for the Lord's appearing to gather His church, for he told us to so. As believers, we should be continuing in faith and looking for His coming. Regarding end-time events which is given in detail in the book of Revelation, there is a blessing for those who read aloud the words of that book and those who hear it and take it to heart.

The passive attitude of "when it happens it happens" is not watching for the Lord's appearing.

I think you have almost completely misunderstood me, which doesn't happen that frequently.

Think of all the people that were martyred and did not see that hope realized. Were they too pining all their hopes to be taken out of their persecution to the point of not being afforded the honor of sacrificing their lives for the sake of the gospel? Did they miss out on something that many believe we gain? Certainly not. They are afforded a very high honor indeed.

Think of Paul who was given the seed of the idea to even put in scripture that did not see it realized. Or even Daniel...it's a long topic. I'm not ignorant of the many different ways to view this. I've had dreams about the "end times" since I was a toddler and I have lived so many scenarios that all line up with scripture in some way that it is enough for me to know that I do not know and I am open to whatever occurs in sort of a JOB "though he slay me, yet will I still trust in him..." mentality. May it be so.


I am suggesting that the parable of the talents and the vineyard are clear enough that you will be held into account for what you do. Whether you are dead and take part in the 1st resurrection or the 2nd. As well as a myriad of other parables that we have had for quite a long time.

No one knows why the seven thunders were sealed, and even John knew that was definitely worth writing down..."and I was about to write..."

No one know enough about the 144,002 (two witnesses) which to me is the only thing I'm critically interested in in regard to a timetable. I envision that the body will be present with the Lord at that time (based off my reads of scripture) and ALL of the body will get to see and hear them.

I find it surprising that you gathered that I haven't read scripture and haven't been looking forward to this for the last 25 years just because I mentioned that the enemy is also moving on this doctrine to blow smoke and confusion/fantasy at the harvest. To warp thinking in this area into a hollywood fabrication.

 

[JaumeJ]

I too watched the movie, "Left Behind." Happily besides believing every Word from the Mouth of our Makaer, I am also a scifi buff. So I viewed it as sectarian scifi.

Just as people have promoted the word, trinity, to require a capital T, so it is with the promotion of the word, Rapture.

I cannot findanywhere in Daniel or Revelation when touching on the Gretest Tribulation ever, kpeople being left behind without others who are in Jesus Christ to help as many as given to help. It seems that Great Tribulation is at our doorstep, so should I live much longer I may be quick to see, if not I will be awakened by angels translating me to Jesus, Yeshua, on the clouds...….God bless all who believe our Savior, and those who will, amen.

 

[Absolutely]

I think you have almost completely misunderstood me, which doesn't happen that frequently.

Think of all the people that were martyred and did not see that hope realized. Were they too pining all their hopes to be taken out of their persecution to the point of not being afforded the honor of sacrificing their lives for the sake of the gospel? Did they miss out on something that many believe we gain? Certainly not. They are afforded a very high honor indeed.

Think of Paul who was given the seed of the idea to even put in scripture that did not see it realized. Or even Daniel...it's a long topic. I'm not ignorant of the many different ways to view this. I've had dreams about the "end times" since I was a toddler and I have lived so many scenarios that all line up with scripture in some way that it is enough for me to know that I do not know and I am open to whatever occurs in sort of a JOB "though he slay me, yet will I still trust in him..." mentality. May it be so.


I am suggesting that the parable of the talents and the vineyard are clear enough that you will be held into account for what you do. Whether you are dead and take part in the 1st resurrection or the 2nd. As well as a myriad of other parables that we have had for quite a long time.

No one knows why the seven thunders were sealed, and even John knew that was definitely worth writing down..."and I was about to write..."

No one know enough about the 144,002 (two witnesses) which to me is the only thing I'm critically interested in in regard to a timetable. I envision that the body will be present with the Lord at that time (based off my reads of scripture) and ALL of the body will get to see and hear them.

I find it surprising that you gathered that I haven't read scripture and haven't been looking forward to this for the last 25 years just because I mentioned that the enemy is also moving on this doctrine to blow smoke and confusion/fantasy at the harvest. To warp thinking in this area into a hollywood fabrication.

You framed your observation of end times discussion in "revultion and hissing"
Then claim the Lord has steered you away from end times discussion.

Your view is basically anti pretrib.

Your eyes are off Jesus return,and on the 144k and 2 witnesses.

Now you claim Jesus directed you there?
(To avoid watching and waiting)?

The ac appears way before the 2 witnesses.
Why not focus there?

 

[Absolutely]

I too watched the movie, "Left Behind." Happily besides believing every Word from the Mouth of our Makaer, I am also a scifi buff. So I viewed it as sectarian scifi.

Just as people have promoted the word, trinity, to require a capital T, so it is with the promotion of the word, Rapture.

I cannot findanywhere in Daniel or Revelation when touching on the Gretest Tribulation ever, kpeople being left behind without others who are in Jesus Christ to help as many as given to help. It seems that Great Tribulation is at our doorstep, so should I live much longer I may be quick to see, if not I will be awakened by angels translating me to Jesus, Yeshua, on the clouds...….God bless all who believe our Savior, and those who will, amen.

5 foolish virgins (saints) left behind.50%
"One taken,one left" mat 24...50% "left behind"
Noah's in laws left behind
Lot's inlaws left behind

There is no protection of saints during the gt.
The ac is comissioned to kill the saints. Even the remnant Jews are hunted down by the devil and barely escape the power given satan during the gt.
Post trib rapture is preposterous.

You cant see "left behind"

 

[Ahwatukee]

I think you have almost completely misunderstood me, which doesn't happen that frequently.

Think of all the people that were martyred and did not see that hope realized. Were they too pining all their hopes to be taken out of their persecution to the point of not being afforded the honor of sacrificing their lives for the sake of the gospel? Did they miss out on something that many believe we gain? Certainly not. They are afforded a very high honor indeed.

Yes, all true believers in Christ throughout the last 2000 years have been looking for the blessed hope, the appearing of Lord, Jesus Christ and that because His appearing to gather His church has always been imminent. And every believer will continue to be ready and watching until that event takes place.

Think of Paul who was given the seed of the idea to even put in scripture that did not see it realized.

As I pointed out, the Lord's appearing to gather His church has always been imminent, in the workings, on the horizon, about to happen, looming and every believer throughout the entire church period should be anticipating His appearing to take us back to the Father's house.

As an example, Paul included himself as one of those who would be alive and caught up when the Lord appeared, as revealed in the scripture below:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."

Obviously, Paul and those with him were not of the group who would be alive when the resurrection took place, because it is yet a future event. So, we who read the same scripture say the same thing "We who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them." When you combine this with John 14:1-3, it shows that after we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, He will then take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for us.

I am suggesting that the parable of the talents and the vineyard are clear enough that you will be held into account for what you do. Whether you are dead and take part in the 1st resurrection or the 2nd. As well as a myriad of other parables that we have had for quite a long time.

No one knows why the seven thunders were sealed, and even John knew that was definitely worth writing down..."and I was about to write..."

Those thing above have nothing to do with the topic

No one know enough about the 144,002 (two witnesses) which to me is the only thing I'm critically interested in in regard to a timetable. I envision that the body will be present with the Lord at that time (based off my reads of scripture) and ALL of the body will get to see and hear them.

The church will not be on the earth to see the two witness, or the 144,000. By the way, the two witnesses are not apart of the 144,000.

I find it surprising that you gathered that I haven't read scripture and haven't been looking forward to this for the last 25 years just because I mentioned that the enemy is also moving on this doctrine to blow smoke and confusion/fantasy at the harvest. To warp thinking in this area into a hollywood fabrication.

My point was/is, that anyone who is believing and teaching that the church must first go through the wrath of God, is not doing as the Lord said, i.e. watching for His imminent appearing to gather us according to His promise. The postribulationist is first looking for the wrath of God to be completed and then the Lord's appearing, while the pretribulationist is looking for the imminent return of the Lord.

 

[Absolutely]

Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Zechariah 9:10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.


Once again, not only what is said, but of course no pre trib trip to earth mentioned

show us a post judgement deliverance with a uturn back to the destroyed area.

Rediculous postrib rapture unprovable theory and omission of verses.

 

[JaumeJ]

5 foolish virgins (saints) left behind.50%
"One taken,one left" mat 24...50% "left behind"
Noah's in laws left behind
Lot's inlaws left behind

There is no protection of saints during the gt.
The ac is comissioned to kill the saints. Even the remnant Jews are hunted down by the devil and barely escape the power given satan during the gt.
Post trib rapture is preposterous.

You cant see "left behind"

Oil is akin to the Holy Spirit. Ask for that oil and your lamp will be filled……….

 

[Mii]

We will just have to disagree then @Ahwatukee

If the parables that I mentioned as well as the parable of the virgins (which I presumed would be a given with "many others") don't light a fire under an individual then I am uncertain of them.

Saying that has nothing to do with anything is beyond me.


If you can respect my position that we don't know, and that we should continue to harvest then I guess we are done communicating. No man knows the day nor the hour is pretty clear. The season can be known as per the physical words of Jesus.

I haven't come across any new information in this thread. I have read scripture, and consistently have it brought up to me privately. I had a different response about soldiering on that I chose not to post when this thread was at page 4, and encouragement in this darkness...

144,000... 2 witnesses = 144,002 people. How does that not make sense btw? I'm not suggesting that they are of the same group, merely that there will at least be that many people absent from the body collectively.

You framed your observation of end times discussion in "revultion and hissing"
Then claim the Lord has steered you away from end times discussion.

Your view is basically anti pretrib.

Your eyes are off Jesus return,and on the 144k and 2 witnesses.

Now you claim Jesus directed you there?
(To avoid watching and waiting)?

The ac appears way before the 2 witnesses.
Why not focus there?

No, don't misquote me. I said the rapture doctrines I have heard. I didn't say end time discussion in general.

See this is one of the problems with BDF. You can make a claim that simply because I have my focus on certain parts of Revelation that I am not ready and not watching and essentially call me one of the foolish virgins. I may be jumping at that, so apologies if so.

just that I've watched the skies late a night, and kept vigils just praying for him to return quickly (no not liturgically, just my own style). Night watch is what I used to call it. I've also had dreams about meeting him in the air but people weren't ready yet, and they were still working. So I figured, well, I presume it must not be time yet.

Why would I not want that more than anything? Being with the father eternally is what I'm working toward, and have been. The rapture sounds great, I just consider that a side event. The millennial reign, the wedding, and the New Heaven and new Earth...like I said, why would that be an improper focus?

He's translated people before and he can do it again if he wants to. I find the mystery of Enoch's translation quite exhilarating, sounds awesome? obviously it's not yet time, and idleness is not proscribed is all I will say.


I'm not unaware of the AC, the Beast, Babylon, the mystery religion, one world system, mark, etc etc... This thread wasn't about that.


@JaumeJ I only posted in this thread because I saw you post...Thank you for posting, it was encouraging

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No man knows the day nor the hour is pretty clear.

I haven't been following the latter parts of this thread, but the above comment caught my eye, and I just wanted to comment on that part.

The verses speaking of "but of that day and hour KNOWETH no man [not even Jesus]" are in the context of [speaking of] His Second Coming to the earth [NOT "our Rapture"], and the word for "know" is in the "PERFECT indicative" [ex: https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/24-36.htm ] which means it has been true (as of the time it was spoken/written) and will be true until/unless something comes along to change that status... and that is what I believe took place when Jesus ASCENDED, and then some 60-yrs later provided "further information" on THAT VERY Subject, in "[The] Revelation" (95ad), where verse 1 states,

"[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto the resurrected/ascended/exalted Jesus], TO SHEW UNTO His servants [see 7:3] things which must come to pass [<--comp. 1:19c/4:1] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (which latter phrase speaks of that FUTURE, specific, limited time-period that will LEAD UP TO His Second Coming to the earth, Rev19).

I believe Jesus has "known" ever since His ascension.

The "PERFECT tense" is not saying, "no one WILL EVER know," nor "no one CAN EVER know"... Jesus now knows, and has disclose further info on THAT. Those who will be existing in the future trib years *can* avail themselves of this "further information" made available on that very Subject, IF they WILL but heed His Word (we know that some will, whereas some will not).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

HE IS RETURNING FOR THE DAY OF VENGEANCE.

So, you think "the day of vengeance" consists of "a singular 24-hr day" ?

 

[DeighAnn]

I would like to jump in on this discussion, but I suppose the most pressing question for me is...why does it matter when exactly?

Definitely he won't miss his own wedding, that much I do know

Why does it matter? Because God hates false doctrine and the first ones God is going to judge is those who are teaching or claiming to teach His Word. And we are not only responsible for our own sins, but when you teach a false doctrine, you are held responsible for all those you teach. That is HUGE. It is a BIG Fat hairy deal and people are going at it like it doesn't matter that much because they aren't standing in front of God this second. Yet they should be thinking along those lines because THEY WILL BE, and God is really really clear on where He stands on the issue of false doctrine. Not to mention all those who can be deceived into believing it now (pre trib fly away) will be deceived by whatever Satan has to say in just a little while. Also when you believe in pre trib, the knowledge you REALLY need to possess to get through it without taking the mark is lost so you realize it is Satan but you haven't prepared your life for his arrival.

Pre trib has people who believe the "church" and the "saints or Israel" are 2 separate "entities". They believe the "church" is made up of the gentiles and the saints are of Israel, as insane as that sounds. Many don't even know the House of Judah was separated from the House of Israel thousands of years ago. When you mention that Gods people are to be as the dust of the earth, they still can't see that "belief" in Christ comes especially to those scattered sheep before everyone else.

You can point out that Paul, without any swerving states "the apostasy comes first', before the man of sin revealed and they just sweep over it. You can mention that JESUS, HIMSELF NEVER ONCE MENTIONED IT. You can state where the churches are told to overcome, to endure to the end but not even that opens eyes. You can even mention the church where it is stated that some of them willr be given up to the devil for a ten day trial. Still nothing. You can mention the 7th trump and even that gets not so miracoulsly "changed". You can tell them where the words "a second" time is writtten, NEVER A THIRD. You can mention place after place after place where all mention of it "would have been" that it ISN'T, and you still get them finding the verses that are arbitrary at best, to "back it up".

Why does it matter? Because God wants ALL his children to make it. Because there is a war going on for "souls" and the loss of just one is too many. Like the shepherd who with 100 sheep leaves the 99 to go find the one. EVERY single soul is of the utmost importance.


BUT MOST important is the four winds are being held UNTIL THE SEALING IS COMPLETED. So any of those who have been deceived have got to become UNDECEIVED AND to have the truth SEALED in their foreheads before we can move forward and quite frankly I am ready.


Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Anyway, that's why I think it matters.

 

[Mii]

Why does it matter? Because God hates false doctrine and the first ones God is going to judge is those who are teaching or claiming to teach His Word. And we are not only responsible for our own sins, but when you teach a false doctrine, you are held responsible for all those you teach. That is HUGE. It is a BIG Fat hairy deal and people are going at it like it doesn't matter that much because they aren't standing in front of God this second. Yet they should be thinking along those lines because THEY WILL BE, and God is really really clear on where He stands on the issue of false doctrine. Not to mention all those who can be deceived into believing it now (pre trib fly away) will be deceived by whatever Satan has to say in just a little while. Also when you believe in pre trib, the knowledge you REALLY need to possess to get through it without taking the mark is lost so you realize it is Satan but you haven't prepared your life for his arrival.

Pre trib has people who believe the "church" and the "saints or Israel" are 2 separate "entities". They believe the "church" is made up of the gentiles and the saints are of Israel, as insane as that sounds. Many don't even know the House of Judah was separated from the House of Israel thousands of years ago. When you mention that Gods people are to be as the dust of the earth, they still can't see that "belief" in Christ comes especially to those scattered sheep before everyone else.

You can point out that Paul, without any swerving states "the apostasy comes first', before the man of sin revealed and they just sweep over it. You can mention that JESUS, HIMSELF NEVER ONCE MENTIONED IT. You can state where the churches are told to overcome, to endure to the end but not even that opens eyes. You can even mention the church where it is stated that some of them willr be given up to the devil for a ten day trial. Still nothing. You can mention the 7th trump and even that gets not so miracoulsly "changed". You can tell them where the words "a second" time is writtten, NEVER A THIRD. You can mention place after place after place where all mention of it "would have been" that it ISN'T, and you still get them finding the verses that are arbitrary at best, to "back it up".

Why does it matter? Because God wants ALL his children to make it. Because there is a war going on for "souls" and the loss of just one is too many. Like the shepherd who with 100 sheep leaves the 99 to go find the one. EVERY single soul is of the utmost importance.


BUT MOST important is the four winds are being held UNTIL THE SEALING IS COMPLETED. So any of those who have been deceived have got to become UNDECEIVED AND to have the truth SEALED in their foreheads before we can move forward and quite frankly I am ready.


Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Anyway, that's why I think it matters.

Awesome perspective. That is more or less how I feel about pre-trib. It could be that I get tired of trying to convince people that are pre-trib, that I have taken the position that I have. It's so rooted in their mind, so long as you are living each day as if it were your last, and stewarding your faith, I feel fairly certain that the Lord will open their eyes. Or at least, that gives me a bit of solace. Same thing with films, pop culture, and materialism luxury...I've spoken my peace with people, it takes the spirit opening their eyes to something...So either A. they are closing their eyes OR B. it is not his timing for them to see certain things just yet. Not sure. Thanks for the post.

If a door opens I will certainly discuss it with someone, but if they are living in a mellow meadow I don't feel empowered to really do anything.

 

[JaumeJ]

So, you think "the day of vengeance" consists of "a singular 24-hr day" ?

Is your question here considered to be prfound or a tool for revealing false brethren? A day can be a thousand years and a thousand years may be a day. If you cannot teach others do not interrogate others.