Once saved always saved ?

[eternally-gratefull]

I am of the firm belief, which I came to through a very difficult encounter with the Holy Spirit, that I have no righteous deeds at all, and that if I am to perform righteous deeds, they will be by and in and of the Holy Spirit. I actually believe that I am pretty much incapable of even knowing righteousness from unrighteousness without the Holy Spirit teaching me and training me.

What scares me is that God, who has invested us with the name of Jesus, will do as we say.

Well you just explained it. A work based on the gain we will receive from is our righteousness. Which is useless to God. A work based on no gain, but faith in God is not our works, but the work of God.

If we are getting baptised to recieve reward (salvation) it is our work.

If we get baptized because of our faith in God expecting no reward. but out of an appreciation for God having already saved us, and we trust him when he said "do this" then It is the work of God. Not our righteousness.

Much the same, If abraham left expecting to be made "right with God" it is his work. But if he left because he "trusted God" it is not his work, which saved him, But God working through him. Which is what Paul was trying to say when he said, If Abraham is justified by works, he has something to boast (take pride in). because he worked to earn a reward (justification)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, let's consider a passage from Paul about good works, Gal 5:22-25. I have always found it interesting that Paul used the singular word fruit is love. And then Paul closes this with If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Could he mean that we live, actually have life, because of the Spirit? If so, then let us walk by the Spirit.

I hope that you understand that I am not arguing, but I am trying to press a point, one I believe is of utmost importance.

In Christ.

Yes I agree, If we do not walk by the spirit. what do we have? Death (not spiritual death which separates us from God, But a life that has no life here on earth.

Where many fall apart in this area, is they think this death is a fall from grace, thus losing salvation. Which is not what Paul was saying.

If we look at the OT example. If Israel walked with God (his statutes according to the law) They had life, and God blessed them. If they did not walk with God, they were enslaved by Gentiles. Were not blessed by God, and thus had death. But they were still Israel.

 

[Joshua175]

"And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God."






"Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.

And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:

To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."







"Quench not the Spirit.

Despise not prophesyings.

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Abstain from all appearance of evil.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Faithful is he that calleth you, who also WILL DO IT."


"He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward."

 

[Joshua175]

"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance"

 

[Joshua175]

"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

 

[Joshua175]

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;"

 

[SantoSubito]

Well you just explained it. A work based on the gain we will receive from is our righteousness. Which is useless to God. A work based on no gain, but faith in God is not our works, but the work of God.

If we are getting baptised to recieve reward (salvation) it is our work.

If we get baptized because of our faith in God expecting no reward. but out of an appreciation for God having already saved us, and we trust him when he said "do this" then It is the work of God. Not our righteousness.

I don't see how being baptized to receive salvation can be considered a work. In baptism we do not merit the grace we are receiving, and we are not saving ourselves, it is an act of God.

 

[Zilla64007]

Certain beliefs have tremendous appeal to the natural man and the natural mind. They are easy to believe, and seem to have great benefit. Most of these beliefs are false. Not that there is not benefit in knowing Jesus Christ and through Him the Father, because there is. But the costs is the complete remaking of our life into a life after His life. Either this remaking is accomplished here in this world through actual grace, through drawing near to God through Jesus, or it will be accomplished at His judgment seat. If there, we will suffer great loss, being saved as if by fire.

Most of the things we want to believe are things which are easy. They make salvation seem easy, without cost or obligation. Or, if there is obligation, it is to the organization which presented the belief in the first place. But deep down, we know that we are under obligation, to Jesus Christ. And this obligation is that we are no longer our own, we were bought with a price.

Jesus saves us for one reason, just one. He saves us in order to reconcile us back to God. He had this ministry of reconciliation when He was on the earth, and we have this ministry from Him.

All this to say, that when one has been reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, they are saved, and I do not believe that they can be lost, for no one and no thing can take them out of His hand.

and you get the entire belief of OSAS, doctrine and all, from one SINGLE, SOLITARY, VERSE OUT OF THE ENTIRE, FREAKING BIBLE?

ignorance at its finest.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

and you get the entire belief of OSAS, doctrine and all, from one SINGLE, SOLITARY, VERSE OUT OF THE ENTIRE, FREAKING BIBLE?

ignorance at its finest.

WHAT? You have got to be joking right?

Who is the ignorant one here? We have given MANY verses.

 

[VW]

and you get the entire belief of OSAS, doctrine and all, from one SINGLE, SOLITARY, VERSE OUT OF THE ENTIRE, FREAKING BIBLE?

ignorance at its finest.

Actually, what I wrote above rather denies OSAS, don't you think?

If ignorance is required to be reconciled back to God through Jesus Christ, I am it.

 

[livingbygrace]

I don't see how being baptized to receive salvation can be considered a work.quote]


But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord
'Look Lord! Here and now I give half my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times as much
Jesus said to him
Today salvation has come to this house
Luke 19:8&9

Zacchaeus hadn't been baptised, or gone through any ceremony, rite or ritual but according to Jesus he had received salvation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't see how being baptized to receive salvation can be considered a work. In baptism we do not merit the grace we are receiving, and we are not saving ourselves, it is an act of God.

1. Did you go to the place where you were baptized? Yes

2. Did you allow yourself to stand in front of many people and give your testimony before you were baptized? I hope so, because this is what this is for

3. Did you allow another man to place you in water?

I do not see how people can say baptism is not a work. You have to do alot of things in order to be baptized.

However. John said Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said he will baptize with the holy spirit.

Peter spoke of a Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

You see it is our spiritual baptism which saves us. God does ALL THE WORK. And there is no water involved.

Our Baptism in water is a symbol of what the Holy Spirit does in our spiritual baptism. Much like Circumcision in the OT represented the "Spiritual circumcision" performed By God. But as Paul says. Our Spiritual circumcision is done by the hands of God. As we are buried by God in Baptism and raised with Christ through faith. and it is the Holy Spirit who does this

col 2: 11 - 12 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body 8of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

One must be careful to not give credit to the work of the Holy Spirit to man. Man could never replace the holy spirit, and the work he does.

 

[SantoSubito]

1. Did you go to the place where you were baptized? Yes

2. Did you allow yourself to stand in front of many people and give your testimony before you were baptized? I hope so, because this is what this is for

3. Did you allow another man to place you in water?

I do not see how people can say baptism is not a work. You have to do alot of things in order to be baptized.

However. John said Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said he will baptize with the holy spirit.

Peter spoke of a Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

You see it is our spiritual baptism which saves us. God does ALL THE WORK. And there is no water involved.

Our Baptism in water is a symbol of what the Holy Spirit does in our spiritual baptism. Much like Circumcision in the OT represented the "Spiritual circumcision" performed By God. But as Paul says. Our Spiritual circumcision is done by the hands of God. As we are buried by God in Baptism and raised with Christ through faith. and it is the Holy Spirit who does this

col 2: 11 - 12 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body 8of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

One must be careful to not give credit to the work of the Holy Spirit to man. Man could never replace the holy spirit, and the work he does.

By your rather broad definition of work practically everything can be called a work. To profess faith in Christ I have to physically speak, To believe in Christ I have to think, and To pray I have to think or speak. Under your definition all those would count as works since some sort of physical and/or mental action is required on my part. Like I said before in baptism it is God who cleanses us, not the man performing the baptism or the water itself, but God. How you can insist that baptism is a work when it is God who cleanses us in baptism is honestly beyond me.

Maybe you have an aversion to any kind of ritual, perhaps?

 

[VW]

The thing to remember about works is that works do not, cannot produce salvation. Rather, salvation will produce works, by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the regeneration that God works in our hearts.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

By your rather broad definition of work practically everything can be called a work. To profess faith in Christ I have to physically speak, To believe in Christ I have to think, and To pray I have to think or speak.

Ah, But Jesus makes it clear it is the work of God that we have faith. It is not our work. we are not doing anything, but choosing to trust God and his promise of eternal life through Christ. It is like someone coming to save us, And tells us not to do anyting but let him save us. It is our trust that saved us. Not our work. for we did not do a thing.

Under your definition all those would count as works since some sort of physical and/or mental action is required on my part.

A work is something we do. Faith does not take work, it is a trust in the work of someone else. Not the same! Not to mention. The work is the cross. That is what our faith is based on. Christ did this work.

Where as if our faith is in our being baptized, where we do some of the work. And our priest or pastor does the rest of the work. Our faith is not in Christ. and the cross is taken out of the equation.

Like I said before in baptism it is God who cleanses us, not the man performing the baptism or the water itself, but God. How you can insist that baptism is a work when it is God who cleanses us in baptism is honestly beyond me.

Why? because your your not depending on God washing you by your faith in the cross. Your making his washing dependent on you do something in order for this washing to take place. If a person has faith in God today, yet can not be baptized for a month, or even a week. Your saying God can not wash you until you can be baptized. Think of the problems with this. Someone could place faith in Christ today, die tomorrow and spend eternity in hell because he was never washed.

Maybe you have an aversion to any kind of ritual, perhaps?

I have an aversion to people placing their eternity based on ritual and placing themselves under law. Which is basically saying the cross was insufficient.

As for ritual. I was baptized. I take communion. I celebrate our lords birth and death. I celebrate and practice alot of ritual. I just do not do these things in order to be saved. I do them because I was saved. And because God commanded me as his child to do these things in remembrance of him.

 

[Zilla64007]

Actually, what I wrote above rather denies OSAS, don't you think?

If ignorance is required to be reconciled back to God through Jesus Christ, I am it.

John 10:28-29 is one of the supposed proof texts for osas... It's one verse that's taken so out of context, it frustrates me to no end

And no, ignorance is not required. God doesn't want us to be ignorant... He wants us to be knowledgable of what we believe, & for us to be prudent in our steps

 

[eternally-gratefull]

John 10: 29
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

If someone came and said, your son is locked up, and no one is able to free him. Yet the son was able to free himself. The person lied.

A correct statement would be, Your son is locked up, and he is the only one able to free himself.

2nd. Context. Jesus said clearly that he gave them ETERNAL LIFE. He did not say conditional. The word he used is eternal. meaning never ending. If this life Christ gave his sheep could ever end, It could not be eternal in nature. And Jesus lied.

Jesus also said they will NEVER parish. If a person could perish by taking themselves out by sin or whatever the case may be. They could parish, Thus Jesus lied.

 

[VW]

John 10:28-29 is one of the supposed proof texts for osas... It's one verse that's taken so out of context, it frustrates me to no end

And no, ignorance is not required. God doesn't want us to be ignorant... He wants us to be knowledgable of what we believe, & for us to be prudent in our steps

So let's take the verse in context. Jesus is talking about His sheep, and that He would lay down His life for them, of His own free will. He later gives a description of His sheep that most Christians ignore because it is too subjective. He says that His sheep hear His voice. He goes on with other attributes of His sheep, but hearing His voice is first in the list. Most pastors won't teach on this, and if they mention it, they gloss over it. But Jesus said it, so it should be important to us. In fact, it is much more important than any have given it credence for.

Earlier, Jesus was speaking, and He said that the hour was coming and now was that the dead would hear the voice of the Son, and that those who heard would live. What was one of the other attributes Jesus pointed out about His sheep? That He gives them eternal life. Why? Because they hear His voice.

If you hear His voice and have received the Holy Spirit and are reconciled back to God so that you are in fellowship with Him, then no one and no thing will ever take you out of His hand.

In Christ

 

[VW]

John 10: 29
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

If someone came and said, your son is locked up, and no one is able to free him. Yet the son was able to free himself. The person lied.
A correct statement would be, Your son is locked up, and he is the only one able to free himself.
2nd. Context. Jesus said clearly that he gave them ETERNAL LIFE. He did not say conditional. The word he used is eternal. meaning never ending. If this life Christ gave his sheep could ever end, It could not be eternal in nature. And Jesus lied.
Jesus also said they will NEVER parish. If a person could perish by taking themselves out by sin or whatever the case may be. They could parish, Thus Jesus lied.

But we cannot leave out the first attribute that Jesus gives to describe His sheep. I know that it makes many uncomfortable, and that it is often explained away, but the truth is that we, His sheep, hear His voice. That is the first thing. In fact, hearing His voice is the beginning of grace and salvation.

In Christ

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But we cannot leave out the first attribute that Jesus gives to describe His sheep. I know that it makes many uncomfortable, and that it is often explained away, but the truth is that we, His sheep, hear His voice. That is the first thing. In fact, hearing His voice is the beginning of grace and salvation.

In Christ

Yes! And I am reminded of a parable Jesus said, if one sheep leave, he will leave the rest of them, and go GET the other and bring him back.