The Texas Chainsaw Bible Massacre

[notuptome]

I am just wondering here. This is a tangent, but are you against Christians in countries that are not under severe persecution meeting in homes like the early church did? There isn't any evidence for a 'steeplehouse' style church building in the New Testament. There were churches that met in homes out of Jerusalem, in the house of Aquilla and Priscilla, in the house of Nympha, in the house of Philemon (or Arcchippus, depending on how one interprets the opening verses of Philemon.) Paul wrote from Corinth of 'Gaius mine host, and of the whole church'. It was the norm to have church meetings in homes back then. The Jerusalem church was quite large and met in Solomon's porch and from house to house.

Paul evangelized in synagogues, the marketplace, and the Aereopagos. But 'church' meetings outside of Jerusalem are associated with homes of individuals if the location is mentioned. Paul met with some men in the lecture hall of Tyrannus. It could have 'been' church or evangelistic outreach. James made a reference to his readers who had the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ having a 'synagogue' in James 2:2.

But generally, there were meetings in homes. The idea of a church building being built as sacred space-- holy ground-- isn't in the Bible. I wonder if some people treat these places like the high places in the Old Testament.

I'm not against Christians meeting wherever they meet. If they have the blessing of being able to meet in a designated building then they ought to assemble there and give God the glory. If they meet in homes then they ought to meet there and give God the glory.

What I am against is those folks who just do not want any organization to the church. An organized church is a witness and a testimony to the unsaved world. Driving down the street and encountering a building with a church design and name on the outside still causes men to consider that God exists and they are faced with the conviction of one day standing before Him and giving account for their lives.

I have attended store front churches and found great blessing fellowshipping with believers in those assemblies. 10-20 believers with a good bible teaching pastor can do great work and win many souls to Christ. That was 40 years ago but it was a great time that we would do well to see again.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[presidente]

Jesus taught Amillennialism.

Show me this, or any passage where Jesus specifically addressed the issue of the millennium.

 

[GaryA]

The millennium is a pharisee doctrine Christ refuted time and again in the gospels. 1000 is a symbol of Satan's binding in Revelation. Not the kingdom. He attacks the kingdom when the 1000 years end.

Think of the millennium as a kind of 'physical' manifestation of the 'spiritual' kingdom.

The fact that there will be a 1000-year reign of Christ - a 'physical' kingdom - does not take anything away from the 'spiritual' kingdom.

'refuted'?

I would like to see that in scripture.

 

[presidente]

We could also say that the resurrection is a 'Pharisee' doctrine. Paul pointed out that he was a Pharisee and that he was on trial for his believe in the resurrection. Some of the other Pharisees then took his side.

 

[Dave-L]

Think of the millennium as a kind of 'physical' manifestation of the 'spiritual' kingdom.

The fact that there will be a 1000-year reign of Christ - a 'physical' kingdom - does not take anything away from the 'spiritual' kingdom.

'refuted'?

I would like to see that in scripture.

Jesus refutes the physical kingdom idea several times in the gospel. "Only those born again can see it." "It comes without observation" "Flesh and blood cannot inherit it". "It is within you". "It suffers violence from the days of John the Baptist". And many more passages.

 

[Dave-L]

Show me this, or any passage where Jesus specifically addressed the issue of the millennium.

The Kingdom of God is spiritual. The Millennium is Pharisaic and physical and refuted by the spiritual kingdom passages.

 

[John146]

The Kingdom of God is spiritual. The Millennium is Pharisaic and physical and refuted by the spiritual kingdom passages.

The kingdom of God is spiritual because God is a spirit. Please use the same logic. The kingdom of heaven is physical because heaven is a physical place. In the beginning God (spiritual) created the heaven (physical) and the earth.

 

[presidente]

The Kingdom of God is spiritual. The Millennium is Pharisaic and physical and refuted by the spiritual kingdom passages.

The problem is you consistently read things into such passages that you have no support for. It is just like your assertion that the church is Israel. You cannot shoe this from scripture and I gave examples from Romans where it includes unbelieving Jews and doesn't refer to Gentiles.

 

[Dave-L]

The problem is you consistently read things into such passages that you have no support for. It is just like your assertion that the church is Israel. You cannot shoe this from scripture and I gave examples from Romans where it includes unbelieving Jews and doesn't refer to Gentiles.

The Congregation of the Lord (Church of the Lord) is not Israel?

 

[Dave-L]

The kingdom of God is spiritual because God is a spirit. Please use the same logic. The kingdom of heaven is physical because heaven is a physical place. In the beginning God (spiritual) created the heaven (physical) and the earth.

The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are one and the same.

 

[John146]

The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are one and the same.

Even though the words God and heaven are different?🤦‍♂️ You just can’t see it my friend. When you can’t see it, you go to replacement theology.

 

[Dave-L]

Even though the words God and heaven are different?🤦‍♂️ You just can’t see it my friend.

“the kingdom of Heaven is at hand” (Matt. 4:17) = “the kingdom of God is at hand” (Mark 1:15)

“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven” (Matt. 5:3) = “Blessed are the poor, for yours is the kingdom of God” (Luke 6:20)

“Among those born of women there has not risen a greater than John the Baptist, notwithstanding he who is least in the kingdom of Heaven is greater than him.” (Matt. 11:11) = “Among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist, but he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than him.” (Luke 7:28)

“the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 13:11) = “the mysteries of the kingdom of God” (Mark 4:11 cp. Luke 8:10)

“the kingdom of Heaven is like a grain of mustard seed” (Matt 13:31) = “the kingdom of God...is like a grain of mustard seed” (Mark 4:30-31 cp. Luke 13:18-19)

“The kingdom of Heaven is like leaven” (Matt. 13:33) = “the kingdom of God...is like leaven” (Luke 13:20)

“Except you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of Heaven” (Matt. 18:3-4) = “Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein” (Mark 10:15)

“Allow little children, and do not forbid them to come to me, for of such is the kingdom of Heaven.” (Matt. 19:14) = “Allow the little children to come to me, and do not forbid them, for of such is the kingdom of God.” (Mark 10:14 cp. Luke 18:16)

“a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of Heaven” (Matt. 19:23) = “How hardly shall they who have riches enter into the kingdom of God!” (Luke 18:24)

In other words, “kingdom of God” = “kingdom of Heaven.”

 

[GaryA]

Jesus refutes the physical kingdom idea several times in the gospel. "Only those born again can see it." "It comes without observation" "Flesh and blood cannot inherit it". "It is within you". "It suffers violence from the days of John the Baptist". And many more passages.

I still think 'refute' is not the proper word for the context of your statement; however, I understand and agree with the point you are making about the 'spiritual' nature of the kingdom.

Granted -- I agree with you; nonetheless, I believe you are missing something.

In the same like manner that - on that web page I referred you to - the existence of the 'spiritual' church does not negate the validity of a 'local' church -- the fact that the 'kingdom' is 'spiritual' does not negate the 'physical' 1000-year reign of Christ on the earth -- which the Bible does say will [literally] happen.

The 1000 years is literal and it does not take anything whatsoever away from the 'spiritual' kingdom.

Spiritual things are spiritual.
Physical things are physical.

There is a 'spiritual' kingdom.
There is a 'physical' kingdom.

Both are biblical.
Both are valid.

This is what I am trying to get you to see.

 

[presidente]

The Congregation of the Lord (Church of the Lord) is not Israel?

Paul quoted Rejoice you Gentiles with his people.

 

[Dave-L]

Paul quoted Rejoice you Gentiles with his people.

Where's the quote?

 

[Dave-L]

I still think 'refute' is not the proper word for the context of your statement; however, I understand and agree with the point you are making about the 'spiritual' nature of the kingdom.

Granted -- I agree with you; nonetheless, I believe you are missing something.

In the same like manner that - on that web page I referred you to - the existence of the 'spiritual' church does not negate the validity of a 'local' church -- the fact that the 'kingdom' is 'spiritual' does not negate the 'physical' 1000-year reign of Christ on the earth -- which the Bible does say will [literally] happen.

The 1000 years is literal and it does not take anything whatsoever away from the 'spiritual' kingdom.

Spiritual things are spiritual.
Physical things are physical.

There is a 'spiritual' kingdom.
There is a 'physical' kingdom.

Both are biblical.
Both are valid.

This is what I am trying to get you to see.

You are adding Phariseeism to Revelation by saying the 1000 years is a physical kingdom. The 1000 years = Satan's binding. When the binding ends, he attacks the kingdom.

 

[presidente]

Where's the quote?

Romans 15

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.
12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
(KJV)

Notice in Paul's terminology and in the terminology of the Old Testament, there are two groups, Israel (see ch. 11, for example) also referred to here as the circumcision as 'his people' and the Gentiles. These prophecies about Gentiles rejoicing with the people of Israel and Christ reigning over the Gentiles do not call the Gentiles "Israel".

 

[Dave-L]

Romans 15

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.
12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
(KJV)

Notice in Paul's terminology and in the terminology of the Old Testament, there are two groups, Israel (see ch. 11, for example) also referred to here as the circumcision as 'his people' and the Gentiles. These prophecies about Gentiles rejoicing with the people of Israel and Christ reigning over the Gentiles do not call the Gentiles "Israel".

“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.” 1 Corinthians 12:13 (KJV 1900)

 

[John146]

You are adding Phariseeism to Revelation by saying the 1000 years is a physical kingdom. The 1000 years = Satan's binding. When the binding ends, he attacks the kingdom.

Question, what’s going on during this 1,000 years of Satan’s binding?

 

[Dave-L]

Question, what’s going on during this 1,000 years of Satan’s binding?

The gospel binds him from deceiving the nations (gentiles elected to salvation) to fulfill the promise made to Abraham. If we think the binding consists of more than that, we add to Revelation.