Which Delivered Us from the Wrath to Come. (1Th 1:10)

GaryA · Apr 11, 2020

Be careful not to confuse the concepts of 'judgment', 'punishment', and 'wrath'.

If we examine the particular nature of the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials - as separate groups, each with its own purpose - it may then help us to understand how each group fits into the timeline of events.

All three are considered to be in the context of the Judgment of God. This context has the greatest scope. It covers all three while each has a more specific purpose and scope within the context of the Judgment of God.

The Seals may be compared to the decision of a parent to allow children to experience the consequences of their own mistakes.

Think "you reap what you sow" with a bit of added 'direction' of the outcome of that experience (unknown to the children) for the sake of maximum learning - but, without direct intervention of the activity of the children that will later bring the consequences.

This is 'judgement' but not 'punishment'. And, it is certainly not 'wrath'.

The Trumpets may be compared to the punishment directly applied by a parent upon children to "get their attention" so they will listen to the 'wisdom' and 'instruction' of the parent for the sake of the children.

This is another form of 'judgment'. It is 'punishment' but not 'wrath'.

The Vials may only be compared to a parent actually killing children who tortured and killed other children who were obedient to the parent.

The Seals represent the [historical] long-term 'judgment' of God upon humanity-in-general for its disobedience. It is "you reap what you sow" with added 'direction' - for the sake of maximum learning of humanity (and, the will of God in the plan of God)

The Trumpets represent the "last-ditch effort" of God to "get the attention" of those "late bloomers" who are the last to come to Christ.

The Vials are the literal exercise of God "pouring out" His wrath upon those who adamantly refused His 'wisdom' and 'instruction' - and, persecuted those who embraced rather than refused it.

While 'wrath' is a form of 'punishment', the intent of it carries the idea and attitude of "no more chances" - having no mercy on those upon who the punishment is inflicted.

The time frame of the Seals is the past ~2000 years along with the near future. The 'events' associated with the first (probably four and possibly five) seals have already occurred or come about.

The Trumpet 'events' are literally brought about by the Two Witnesses in a future time frame that is at least 3.5 years long.

The Vials are literally brought about by God in a very short time frame at the very end of the End Times Scenario.

garee · Apr 11, 2020

crossnote said:

Its the end of it.

I am saying that God's daily wrath as a tribulation is being revealed from heaven is death. In dying you will die.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Romans 1;18

Not will be revealed is.

Everyday from the first day that his glory departed (ye shall surely die) we are under its wrath . suffering unto death the daily pangs of hell No suffering after death as some would have others believe.

Christians because they are yoked with Christ do get rest from that daily tribulation (hell) This is when Christ works with us and us with Him. He is our sabbath. The rest Cain the restless wanderer did not have that Abel did.

If we harden our hearts and do not mix faith in what we hear or see we receive no rest from our own works having given up the helper Christ.

When the Son of man came he demonstrated the finished work of rest between him and the father in respect to all the nations of the world. It was at that moment when the veil was rent that the gospel key bound the father of lies from deceiving the all the nations that God was a God of the Jews as a respecter of persons. And set a seal upon him that he should deceive the nations as a whole till the last day . The execution of the judgement.

It When Christ said it is finished increased the tribulation for mankind and and the Jew who were used to represent all of mankind until the reformation.

They lost their identity to be recognized as God people used in ceremonies as signs to the world .Never as sign in respect the their corrupted flesh. A great tribulation for the Jew and the Pagan world that walked by sight. One like never before or ever again

The reformation which began the last days period. Brought death . The great tribulation that will remain until the resurrection gate closes and the letter of the law death is cast into the judgement of God never to rise and and cause such a great tribulation ever again.

No need to separate suffering as tribulation into dispensations. It does not get any greater than dead never to rise to new spirit life. No sign as a wonder. We walk by faith

crossnote · Apr 11, 2020

massorite said:

At least not from self-proclaimed teachers who get ruffled fielding questions.

crossnote · Apr 11, 2020

garee said:

Its the end of it.

I am saying that God's daily wrath as a tribulation is being revealed from heaven is death. In dying you will die.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Romans 1;18

Not will be revealed is.

Everyday from the first day that his glory departed (ye shall surely die) we are under its wrath . suffering unto death the daily pangs of hell No suffering after death as some would have others believe.

Christians because they are yoked with Christ do get rest from that daily tribulation (hell) This is when Christ works with us and us with Him. He is our sabbath. The rest Cain the restless wanderer did not have that Abel did.

If we harden our hearts and do not mix faith in what we hear or see we receive no rest from our own works having given up the helper Christ.

When the Son of man came he demonstrated the finished work of rest between him and the father in respect to all the nations of the world. It was at that moment when the veil was rent that the gospel key bound the father of lies from deceiving the all the nations that God was a God of the Jews as a respecter of persons. And set a seal upon him that he should deceive the nations as a whole till the last day . The execution of the judgement.

It When Christ said it is finished increased the tribulation for mankind and and the Jew who were used to represent all of mankind until the reformation.

They lost their identity to be recognized as God people used in ceremonies as signs to the world .Never as sign in respect the their corrupted flesh. A great tribulation for the Jew and the Pagan world that walked by sight. One like never before or ever again

The reformation which began the last days period. Brought death . The great tribulation that will remain until the resurrection gate closes and the letter of the law death is cast into the judgement of God never to rise and and cause such a great tribulation ever again.

No need to separate suffering as tribulation into dispensations. It does not get any greater than dead never to rise to new spirit life. No sign as a wonder. We walk by faith

I asked 'is the wrath poured out in Revelation the same wrath being revealed day to day? '
So I guess your answer is 'no, it is just the end part (consummation) of His wrath'.

PlainWord · Apr 11, 2020

crossnote said:

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. (1Th 1:10)

I used to toy with the idea that 'the wrath to come' was a euphemism for hell.
Let's say it is, then what is all the destruction that goes on in Revelation and the sudden destruction that takes the world by surprise in 1Thess 5:3?

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
(1Th 5:3)

Let's say it is not a euphemism for hell but a brief description of the Great Tribulation which is to fall upon this world at a time they are unaware.

Matthew 24:38-39 (KJV) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Then would not 'which delivered us from the wrath to come' be referring to the rapture of the Church?

Paul was writing to the Thessalonians of the mid 1st century. He was not writing to us. If Paul was speaking of our future, nearly 2,000 years into his future, than he had nothing of relevance to share with the Thessalonians and was just wasting his time on them.

PlainWord · Apr 11, 2020

crossnote said:

The "WRATH" in Thessalonians and in Matthew referred to the judgment wrath which befell Jerusalem and disbelieving Israel of 67-70 AD.

garee · Apr 11, 2020

crossnote said:

Thanks for the reply,

Yes one tribulation that we have been under since birth the living suffering of hell and the other the end of dying. Everyone prior to death working toward (consummation) of His wrath' The beginning working though to the end being yoked with him our eternal rest.

For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ

hilipians 1:6

The last day

crossnote · Apr 11, 2020

PlainWord said:

But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
(2Pe 3:8)
This is especially true of prophetic events which is the context of 2Pet3 & 1Th 5 & 2Th 2.
God's Word is relevant to every generation, especially when dealing with eschatology.

crossnote · Apr 11, 2020

PlainWord said:

Sorry but I don't believe Preterism is true.
This verser alone (from Matthew) blows preterism to smithereens...
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.
(Mat 24:21)

crossnote · Apr 11, 2020

garee said:

OK, I'm thinking more of the actual physical aspect...the destruction happening on a wholesale level
Here is just one example...

Revelation 8:7-11 (KJV) The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

PlainWord · Apr 11, 2020

crossnote said:

But a thousand days isn't to the Thessalonians as one day. They aren't God. Peter's statement was not being referenced by Paul in his letters to the Thessalonians. Paul had very personal and relevant things to say to the Church in Asia Minor. The world about them was about (within 20 years) to change in very dramatic ways. Virtually all non-believing Jews in Israel were to be destroyed along with their temple and holy city, both were as grand and renown as anything on the planet at that time.

PlainWord · Apr 11, 2020

crossnote said:

That Great Tribulation dealt with what happened in and around Jerusalem in 69-70 AD. No nation ever suffered like that before, or ever will again. That was a declarative statement.

TRIBULATION = SUFFERING.

No nation and certainly no city suffered the way Jerusalem did back then. I am going to cite Josephus below in blue and provide Bible passages that match up in red.

The madness of the seditious did also increase together with their famine, and both those miseries were every day inflamed more and more; for there was no corn which any where appeared publicly, but the robbers came running into, and searched men's private houses; and then, if they found any, they tormented them, because they had denied they had any; and if they found none, they tormented them worse, because they supposed they had more carefully concealed it. The indication they made use of whether they had any or not was taken from the bodies of these miserable wretches; which, if they were in good case, they supposed they were in no want at all of food; but if they were wasted away, they walked off without searching any further; nor did they think it proper to kill such as these, because they saw they would very soon die of themselves for want of food. Many there were indeed who sold what they had for one measure; it was of wheat, if they were of the richer sort; but of barley, if they were poorer.

Rev 6: 5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come and see.” So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales[c] in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine.”

But the famine was too hard for all other passions, and it is destructive to nothing so much as to modesty; for what was otherwise worthy of reverence was in this case despised; insomuch that children pulled the very morsels that their fathers were eating out of their very mouths, and what was still more to be pitied, so did the mothers do as to their infants; and when those that were most dear were perishing under their hands, they were not ashamed to take from them the very last drops that might preserve their lives.

19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

Here's one passage from Josephus that sums up multiple passages in the Bible.

I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly: - That neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world.

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,

A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.” And He left them and departed.

Of course Josephus cannot predict the future so he doesn't say it would be the worst suffering anyone endured into the future as Christ did but it was the worst up to that point, as far as he was aware!!

crossnote · Apr 11, 2020

PlainWord said:

Japan- Hiroshima, Nagasaki.
I'm sorry but I feel like I just stepped into a mental ward when I start conversing with preterists. The doctrine is beyond incoherency.

garee · Apr 11, 2020

crossnote said:

Yes the metaphor thousand years a unknown almost 2000 years today . The metaphor thousand years is relevant to every generation, especially when dealing with eschatology

Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Ecclesiastes 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

PlainWord · Apr 11, 2020

crossnote said:

Don't worry, the feeling is mutual when I deal with futurists. The population of Japan in 1939 was approximately 171 million. They lost between 2.5 and 3.1 million. This is a mortality rate of less than 2%. If you want to look at it by city, Hiroshima had a population of 330,000 and lost about 120,000, a mortality rate of 36%. Nagasaki had 250,000 and lost 80,000, a mortality rate of 32%. So how does that compare with 70 AD Jerusalem? At the start of the siege, Jerusalem had an inflated population of 1.2 million. The city's population had swelled as those fleeing smaller towns came to the fortress of Jerusalem. Jews from all over the Roman empire returned for the religious holidays as well thus getting trapped inside. They were allowed in, but not out as the Romans wish to put strain on their supplies.

Of the 1.2 million only 98,000 survived, a mortality rate of 92%!! Thus far surpassing the cases you cite. It wasn't just the sheer numbers of dead, it was the horrific ways in which they died.

I assure you, Jesus was NOT talking about WWII. In fact WWII is barely worth mentioning when you consider the Black Plague of the 14th century where 50 million people in Europe died, a full 60% of their population. Even that doesn't measure up to 70 AD Israel. At least 40% of Europe remained. Israel was utterly and completely wiped off the map!!

PlainWord · Apr 11, 2020

garee said:

It has nothing to do with eschatology. The point Peter was making is that there is no time in the heavenly realm. There is no sun, God is the light. Without a sun to revolve around, there is no time. If there is no time, there is no years. The expression dealt with God, not us.

Ahwatukee · Apr 11, 2020

crossnote said:

You got it Crossnote! Believers are not appointed to suffer any wrath, whether the seals, trumpets or bowl judgments, nor eternal wrath.

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation.
For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

"Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him! "

PlainWord · Apr 11, 2020

“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation..."

There was no temple standing during WWII. There was no temple during the Black Plague which many historians consider the greatest human catastrophe ever. https://www.historytoday.com/archive/black-death-greatest-catastrophe-ever

However, they did not consider 70 AD Jerusalem which tops the list. BTW, there was a temple standing back then.

Ahwatukee · Apr 11, 2020

Deuteronomy said:

Greetings Deuteronomy!

The Day of the Lord is not the great white throne judgment, but is that seven year period which takes place after the gathering of the church. It is not a day in length, but represents a time period where the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place. It is the time of God's wrath which will be poured out upon the inhabitants of the entire world.

==========================================
The great Day of the LORD is near—

near and coming quickly.

Listen, the Day of the LORD!

Then the cry of the mighty will be bitter.

That day will be a day of wrath,

a day of trouble and distress,

a day of destruction and desolation,

a day of darkness and gloom,

a day of clouds and blackness,

a day of horn blast and battle cry

against the fortified cities,

and against the high corner towers.

I will bring such distress on mankind

that they will walk like the blind,

because they have sinned against the LORD.

Their blood will be poured out like dust

and their flesh like dung.

Neither their silver nor their gold

will be able to deliver them

on the Day of the LORD’s wrath.

The whole earth will be consumed

by the fire of His jealousy.”

For indeed, He will make a sudden end

of all who dwell on the earth.

PlainWord · Apr 11, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

You got it Crossnote! Believers are not appointed to suffer any wrath, whether the seals, trumpets or bowl judgments, nor eternal wrath.

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation.
For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

"Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him! "

And so it was.

Which Delivered Us from the Wrath to Come. (1Th 1:10)

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member