Is Christ's church divided?

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#101
#101
VW said:
True forgiveness comes from love!
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True forgiveness comes from Love, But God's love can not overrule Gods Justice. And God's justice demands a payment for sin. That penalty is death, And this is why Christ had to come and die for us, so that through Grace, Gods justice is satisfied, and forgiveness is granted.

Without grace, there can BE NO FORGIVENESS>
 
VW

VW

Banned
#102
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
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#102
eternally-gratefull said:
True forgiveness comes from Love, But God's love can not overrule Gods Justice. And God's justice demands a payment for sin. That penalty is death, And this is why Christ had to come and die for us, so that through Grace, Gods justice is satisfied, and forgiveness is granted.

Without grace, there can BE NO FORGIVENESS>
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and that makes grace and forgiveness the same how?

If you think that God's love has no place in our forgiveness then you have not meet Him either. He does not have to forgive us just because Jesus died for us. It is a grave error to think that God must do anything.

Who will take Him to account? Ludicrous.
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#103
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#103
eternally-gratefull said:
Again, I was answering the question asked. If we want to talk about the "prodigal son" that is another subject. and maybe another thread. But the question asked is about a person who professes, and shows no change in lifestyle, he still remains an evil person over a long period of time. Would you think that person truly had faith?
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you broke up my post so much it ended up going off the rails.
i get where you're coming from though.

i'm just reluctant to say somthing like "after a few weeks of struggle" as you have done.

we struggle with our sinful nature until the day we die.

in fact, the longer we are christians, when the consience /heart is made tender, we are easily convicted by our sinfulness.

surely you're not saying we become sinless in this life are you?

i actually thought the discussion was about The Laodicean Church, sorry. i guess i misunderstood.

no...i don't believe someone who remains "evil" over a long period of time is being sanctified. but those are very broad terms.

if we say we have no sin, we lie.

my point was we can know ONLY by what people say about Christ and the Word, and God's Plan AND how their lives are changing. its impossible to know about someone's personal (or secret) sins on the internet. but it's easier to see if they are professing true faith, or spewing errors.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#104
#104
VW said:
and that makes grace and forgiveness the same how?
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Your just as bad as Red and a few other people in here. You continue to prove you do not read anything anyone says.

Let me repeat myself:

I NEVER SAID THEY WERE THE SAME! I said one can not happen without the other. Are you even reading what I am saying?

Did you get it this time. or do I need to repeat myself again?

If you think that God's love has no place in our forgiveness then you have not meet Him either. He does not have to forgive us just because Jesus died for us. It is a grave error to think that God must do anything.
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My God do you read anything I say? Did I take Gods love out of the equation?

Can you show me where I said this?

2nd. Did I say God HAD to forgive us? Where did I say this?



Who will take Him to account? Ludicrous.[/quote]
 
VW

VW

Banned
#105
Dec 22, 2009
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#105
eternally-gratefull said:
Your just as bad as Red and a few other people in here. You continue to prove you do not read anything anyone says.

Let me repeat myself:

I NEVER SAID THEY WERE THE SAME! I said one can not happen without the other. Are you even reading what I am saying?

Did you get it this time. or do I need to repeat myself again?



My God do you read anything I say? Did I take Gods love out of the equation?

Can you show me where I said this?

2nd. Did I say God HAD to forgive us? Where did I say this?



Who will take Him to account? Ludicrous.
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[/quote]

Now that I have irritated you to no end, and that you have become angry, I ask just this; what is grace?

I have read what you have written, and I still have problems with it, which is of course no concern to you.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#106
#106
zone said:
you broke up my post so much it ended up going off the rails.
i get where you're coming from though.

i'm just reluctant to say somthing like "after a few weeks of struggle" as you have done.
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I never said a few weeks. The person who posted the questions stated the person had 10 years. and no change. so that is the context.


we struggle with our sinful nature until the day we die.

in fact, the longer we are christians, when the consience /heart is made tender, we are easily convicted by our sinfulness.

surely you're not saying we become sinless in this life are you?
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No, If you read my posts you will see this is far from the truth.

i actually thought the discussion was about The Laodicean Church, sorry. i guess i misunderstood.

no...i don't believe someone who remains "evil" over a long period of time is being sanctified. but those are very broad terms.

if we say we have no sin, we lie.

my point was we can know ONLY by what people say about Christ and the Word, and God's Plan AND how their lives are changing. its impossible to know about someone's personal (or secret) sins on the internet. but it's easier to see if they are professing true faith, or spewing errors.
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No I was discussing a direct question posted by someone.

This is the question;

A person claims a conversion. For the following ten years STRAIGHT AFTER the conversion experiance is claimed a person CONTINUOUSLY GETS DRUNK, HAS continuous, MULTIPLE AFFAIRS, CONTINUOSLY BEATS THEIR WIFE, AND DOES NOT READ A BIBLE, do you believe such a person could be in a saved state.

So you see the jist of the question. A persons claims to have been saved, Yet from that time and for ten years. he showed no change in life. Do you believe this person is saved.

you see, it is not backsliding, for the person never showed fruits of repentance which even John the Baptist demanded before he baptized anyone.


As for laodecea, That was another comment of mine yes. But not what I was speaking of here. Sorry if I confused you
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#107
#107
Now that I have irritated you to no end, and that you have become angry, I ask just this; what is grace?

I have read what you have written, and I still have problems with it, which is of course no concern to you.[/quote]

You evidently have not read anything I said. because you think I believe grace and forgiveness are the same, and that Gods love is not a part of our forgiveness. If you would have read and really thought about what I said, you would not maske such grave errors in judging what I believe.
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#108
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#108
eternally-gratefull said:
It is a person who understands grace who understand the true love God has for us. If we live in fear every time we screw up that God will kick us out of his family. We do not understand grace, and place ourselves back under law.
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Well said. exactly, and that should be the end of the matter.

this kind of "faith" is no faith at all. no trust. there seems to be little assurance from the Comforter in some of these people.

it becomes performance based, how righteous they become by "drawing near".

i don't want to be found having my own righteousness: I HAVE NONE! (filthy rags do not allow me access to Father...LOL....Christ's Righteousness does. and we know this and give him ALL THE GLORY)
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#109
#109
zone said:
Well said. exactly, and that should be the end of the matter.

this kind of "faith" is no faith at all. no trust. there seems to be little assurance from the Comforter in some of these people.

it becomes performance based, how righteous they become by "drawing near".

i don't want to be found having my own righteousness: I HAVE NONE! (filthy rags do not allow me access to Father...LOL....Christ's Righteousness does. and we know this and give him ALL THE GLORY)
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Amen, Paul said it best;

Romans 8:15
For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
 
VW

VW

Banned
#111
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
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#111
eternally-gratefull said:
Now that I have irritated you to no end, and that you have become angry, I ask just this; what is grace?

I have read what you have written, and I still have problems with it, which is of course no concern to you.
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You evidently have not read anything I said. because you think I believe grace and forgiveness are the same, and that Gods love is not a part of our forgiveness. If you would have read and really thought about what I said, you would not maske such grave errors in judging what I believe. [/quote]
I said that you equate grace and forgiveness. I said that they are not the same. We had a misunderstanding. I never said that God's love is not a part of our forgiveness, and rather that it is the only real motivation for His forgiving us.

You are still irritated at me. Why?
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#112
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#112
eternally-gratefull said:
Amen, Paul said it best;

Romans 8:15
For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
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Amen.
Why is it so hard to believe regular old christians receive The Spirit?:confused: I mean...God is Holy and Awesome...yet He wants us to call Him DADDY! thats' how i feel too!
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#113
#113
zone said:
my fault for entering in when i didn't know the core issue.carry on:D
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No prob, Feel free to add if you can think of anything.

ps. Nice cat :p
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#114
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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63
#114
VW

VW

Banned
#115
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
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#115
Seems pretty divided to me, with all these different denominations and doctrines and beliefs about salvation and the Holy Spirit. And if anyone disagrees with the common mainstream Christian, that one is roundly derided, even to calling one whom Christ died for antichrist.

Yep, it's divided alright. One doesn't have to read but a few posts here to see that.
 
pickles

pickles

Senior Member
#116
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
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#116
Eph: capter 2 verses 1 through 10
1 You were dead because of your sins and offences,
2 as you gave allegiance to the present age and to the prince of the air, that spirit who is even now at work among the rebellious.
3 All of us were once of their company; we lived at the level of the flesh, following every whim and fancy, and so by nature deserved God's wrath like the rest.
4 But God is rich in mercy; because of His great love for us
5 He brought us to life with Christ when we were dead to sin. By this favor you were saved.
6 Both with and in Christ Jesus He raised us up and gave us a place in the heavens,
7 that in the ages to come He might display the great wealth of His favor, manifested by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8 I repeat. it is owing to His favor that salvation is yours through faith. This is not of your own doing, it is God's gift;
9 neither is it a reward for anthing you have accomplished, so let no one pride himself on it.
10 We are truly His handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to lead the life of good deeds which God prepared for us in advance.

Let each one see these words as intended in Jesus Christ is Lord.

By the way Eph. 2:11 through 22 speaks to all united in Jesus. :)

in the love of Jesus, God bless.
pickles
 
VW

VW

Banned
#117
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
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#117
Amen sister,

God bless you with the riches of His grace in Christ Jesus.
 
pickles

pickles

Senior Member
#118
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
63
#118
I wanted to speak to this, the argument here was about sin and forgiveness.
We are forgiven in Jesus.
But we are to then live in Jesus as well. Dead to the flesh, sin.
Alive in Jesus, His Holy Spirit.
The good news is that Jesus brings us victory in this, providing all we need.
Again, we no longer are of sin in Jesus, when we live in Jesus.
Flesh is death, sin.
Jesus is life, Spirit, salvation.

in Jesus, God bless.
pickles
 
VW

VW

Banned
#119
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#119
pickles said:
I wanted to speak to this, the argument here was about sin and forgiveness.
We are forgiven in Jesus.
But we are to then live in Jesus as well. Dead to the flesh, sin.
Alive in Jesus, His Holy Spirit.
The good news is that Jesus brings us victory in this, providing all we need.
Again, we no longer are of sin in Jesus, when we live in Jesus.
Flesh is death, sin.
Jesus is life, Spirit, salvation.

in Jesus, God bless.
pickles
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Yes. Every day, I grow more convinced that we are alive in Him alone. So many are awaiting the resurrection, or the change when we see Him, but we have His life now, His resurrection life. Paul wrote of this many times, and Peter and John also. But Jesus said it best: "I am the resurrection and the life. Everyone who believes in Me shall live, even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die."

In Christ
 
L

livingbygrace

Banned
#120
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
7
0
#120
VW said:
Seems pretty divided to me, with all these different denominations and doctrines and beliefs about salvation and the Holy Spirit. And if anyone disagrees with the common mainstream Christian, that one is roundly derided, even to calling one whom Christ died for antichrist.

Yep, it's divided alright. One doesn't have to read but a few posts here to see that.
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I think many are more interested in a 'head theology' than standing on the heart of the Gospel

What we must know in our heads according to the truth some feel has been revealed to them is more important than the heart.

And sadly some seem to feel they know better than did Christ when he walked this earth concerning the demands they will make of man
 
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