Is Christ's church divided?

[pickles]

We must always remember, it is not about condemnation, but life in Jesus.
May each of us keep the goal in sight.
Also, it is not about who is right, it is about His truth!
We are never divided, if we are in Jesus!!!
May the love and truth in Jesus fill each of our hearts in truth!!!

God bless.
pickles

 

[VW]

I never feel well after a session like yesterday. This kind of conflict makes me ill in my soul. And I do not see any profit from it either. Actually, I only see loss and defeat.

Why mist we come to such an end? Is there no peace, no place where we can be in tune with each other? There might be one or two on the group who do not believe that Jesus is the Christ, that He is Lord, that He is risen. Yet the great majority of those here do believe and do confess. And yet we are so quick to anger and to resort to words of insulting content.

Jesus never left a discussion unfinished. He always had His say. He is God the Son, and He had this right. But I must ask of myself, "do I have this right?" not if the end is what we saw happen yesterday.

And so, I repent of my words in this thread.

In Christ,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are still irritated at me. Why?

Who said I was irritated? when people continue to say I say things I have never said I want to make in known I never said that. And try to help them understand what I believe. two people can not discuss anything if one continues to believe the other is saying things they are not saying.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen.
Why is it so hard to believe regular old christians receive The Spirit? I mean...God is Holy and Awesome...yet He wants us to call Him DADDY! thats' how i feel too!

Remember, Satan's lie is that God is not a loving God but an evil dictator who wants us to fulfill his evil desires by making us do what he says or else!

It is satans greatest victory that he still get people to see God this way, and not the truly loving god he is, and the father he wants to be from all of us. You would think God sending his son to die for such evil people who are deserving of judgment would show us God loves us as a "daddy" But people still do not get it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Seems pretty divided to me, with all these different denominations and doctrines and beliefs about salvation and the Holy Spirit. And if anyone disagrees with the common mainstream Christian, that one is roundly derided, even to calling one whom Christ died for antichrist.

Yep, it's divided alright. One doesn't have to read but a few posts here to see that.

I thinks thats the point. Christ's church "the one he owns and payed for with his blood) is not divided But there are those who call themselves the church who are not a part of the true church. so it appears there is a division. IE even God called the laodecian church (which was not a true church) a church. so herein is where we get the division.

 

[Red33]

I never feel well after a session like yesterday. This kind of conflict makes me ill in my soul. And I do not see any profit from it either. Actually, I only see loss and defeat.

Why mist we come to such an end? Is there no peace, no place where we can be in tune with each other? There might be one or two on the group who do not believe that Jesus is the Christ, that He is Lord, that He is risen. Yet the great majority of those here do believe and do confess. And yet we are so quick to anger and to resort to words of insulting content.

Jesus never left a discussion unfinished. He always had His say. He is God the Son, and He had this right. But I must ask of myself, "do I have this right?" not if the end is what we saw happen yesterday.

And so, I repent of my words in this thread.

In Christ,

If you are looking for peace, David, a man after God's own heart (1Sam 13:14, Acts 13:22), testified of having GREAT peace in (Ps 119:165)...

Great peace have they which love thy law (word): and nothing shall offend them.

'great peace' - rab shalom - exceedingly abundant peace, a complete soundness of mind and heart

'love' - ahab - verb meaning to have an unwaivering affection for, as in loving your neighbor, as in a father loving his son, as in a man loving God with all his heart, soul, mind and strength.

If a man is going to have great peace, a complete soundness of mind and heart, he is going to develop an unwaivering affection and love for God's word, just as David did who was a man after God's own heart.

In all the time that you have posted on this site I have never heard you make any reference concerning PSALM 119, which is the longest psalm and most prolific in magnifying every aspect of God's word. That PSALM is one of great devotion to the WORD. David did not separate God's WORD from the ONE He served with all his heart. In PSALM 138:2, David even recognized that God magnified His very own WORD above His name. I think that David had something to say through the Holy Spirit about man having a love and devotion to every word of God.

 

[VW]

If you are looking for peace, David, a man after God's own heart (1Sam 13:14, Acts 13:22), testified of having GREAT peace in (Ps 119:165)...

Great peace have they which love thy law (word): and nothing shall offend them.

'great peace' - rab shalom - exceedingly abundant peace, a complete soundness of mind and heart

'love' - ahab - verb meaning to have an unwaivering affection for, as in loving your neighbor, as in a father loving his son, as in a man loving God with all his heart, soul, mind and strength.

If a man is going to have great peace, a complete soundness of mind and heart, he is going to develop an unwaivering affection and love for God's word, just as David did who was a man after God's own heart.

In all the time that you have posted on this site I have never heard you make any reference concerning PSALM 119, which is the longest psalm and most prolific in magnifying every aspect of God's word. That PSALM is one of great devotion to the WORD. David did not separate God's WORD from the ONE He served with all his heart. In PSALM 138:2, David even recognized that God magnified His very own WORD above His name. I think that David had something to say through the Holy Spirit about man having a love and devotion to every word of God.

I am not going to argue with you. I do love every word of God, but I love God more. I have peace, and I had peace yesterday. But the Spirit, with God's voice, convicted me of sin, and I repented publicly, accepting the shame because it is rightfully mine. The bible did not convict me of my sin, God did by His Spirit, and I will take that over an overblown dependence on the bible every time. And guess what, if you ask David, he would tell you the very same thing.

In Christ,

 

[Red33]

This is the question;

A person claims a conversion. For the following ten years STRAIGHT AFTER the conversion experiance is claimed a person CONTINUOUSLY GETS DRUNK, HAS continuous, MULTIPLE AFFAIRS, CONTINUOSLY BEATS THEIR WIFE, AND DOES NOT READ A BIBLE, do you believe such a person could be in a saved state.

So you see the jist of the question. A persons claims to have been saved, Yet from that time and for ten years. he showed no change in life. Do you believe this person is saved.

you see, it is not backsliding, for the person never showed fruits of repentance which even John the Baptist demanded before he baptized anyone.


As for laodecea, That was another comment of mine yes. But not what I was speaking of here. Sorry if I confused you

You are obviously referring to me, so I will respond. You can not deny that many people who are not saved, but live morally, show more of the fruits of repentance then what you demand from those that profess Christ. God told Jeremiah that the heart was deceitful and desperately wicked above all things and who could know it (Jer 17:9). We also know that man looks on the outward appearance but God looks upon the heart (1Sam 16:7). We also know from the scriptures that Paul and other of the apostles repeatedly told believers in the many churches to put away all kinds of sins concerning the flesh and also of the mind and tongue (Eph 2;3, 4:22,31, Rom 13:12, Col 3:8,9, Jm 3:5-8).

When I see a person who professes Christ and has a problem with sin, I don't get upset nor do I judge them concerning God's grace and their salvation status. Maybe you do but I do not. If anything, grace swells up in me and I want to give them more grace because they need it more. If you don't understand that, then I can't help you understand.

You keep harping on this example (10 yrs) with all these terrible things that a man has done, but can any of these terrible things compare to what David did when committing adultery with Bathsheba, getting her pregnant, having her husband Uriah killed in battle then taking Bathsheba and multiplying wives which kings were not to do (Deut 17:17)? On top of that he didn't even know he did anything wrong until God had Nathan, the prophet, discreetly bring it to his attention (2Sam 12:1-10). Are you going to tell me that David repented and was chastised for his sin? You bet, because he was king and God put away his sin before he even repented (2Sam 12:13).

But you say, this man of (10 yrs) has NO fruit to show for repentance. SO WHAT! Does that give any the right to judge this man because of his sin or lack of the 'moral fruit' that you are looking for? Would you have judged Sampson in the same manner, who was a judge of Israel, who had a problem with prostitutes (Judges 16:1) or having sex with women who he was not married to? Why did God ever choose a man like Saul (Paul), who persecuted the church and had many of them killed as a murderer, breaking the law of the 10 commandments and justifying it in the name of God's righteousness upon those that blasphemed. Was it a good choice in choosing Peter to be the first preacher at Pentecost, who was nothing but an impulsive, double-minded, unconverted wishy-washy man, who had a problem with envy and denied Christ three times and went back fishing (Jn 13:38, Mt 26:69-75)?

So you have murders, adulteries, fornicators, backslidders and those that denied Christ, all committing these horrendous acts after God had called them, but God still used them and never judged them. How would you have judged them? These men get to remain in their calling despite their sin and God rents the kingdom from Saul because he disobeyed the voice of God (1Sam 28:17,18). GO FIGURE! It may be that God chooses the foolish to confound the wise, the weak to confound the mighty, the despised and the base thing to render all those things that we put value upon as nothing (1Cor 1:27,28). Perhaps the man (of 10 yrs) that you describe is the one that God is going to choose and has used all these things, that you despise in this man, to call him in His own righteousness and use him for the glory of God.

 

[Red33]

I am not going to argue with you. I do love every word of God, but I love God more. I have peace, and I had peace yesterday. But the Spirit, with God's voice, convicted me of sin, and I repented publicly, accepting the shame because it is rightfully mine. The bible did not convict me of my sin, God did by His Spirit, and I will take that over an overblown dependence on the bible every time. And guess what, if you ask David, he would tell you the very same thing.

In Christ,

If you have ever read and studied or meditated on Psalm 119, you would never make the statements you make concerning the scriptures. Psalm 119 is part of the whole counsel of God you know (Acts 20:27). The scriptures are God's very own counsel to us not some secondary book compared to the Spirit. The Spirit would resist anyone that thought otherwise. If you leave that chapter out as part of God's counsel, concerning His word to you, then your understanding will be incomplete and the Holy Spirit will be limited and grieved as to what can be revealed to you. I said limited just as Israel limited God in the wilderness (Ps 78:40ff).

You can not love God more than you love His word because His word came from Him and ... In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God, and the same was in the beginning with God (Jn 1:1,2). It does not matter if the Word is spoken, written or revealed, it all comes from the mouth of God and is the same as God and so is the Son. To separate God from His very Word is a bad practice and does not represent the mind of Christ or the Spirit in any way.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are obviously referring to me, so I will respond. You can not deny that many people who are not saved, but live morally, show more of the fruits of repentance then what you demand from those that profess Christ.

First off I am not demanding anyone do anything. That would make me put people under law. Scripture is what makes the demands not me.

God told Jeremiah that the heart was deceitful and desperately wicked above all things and who could know it (Jer 17:9). We also know that man looks on the outward appearance but God looks upon the heart (1Sam 16:7). We also know from the scriptures that Paul and other of the apostles repeatedly told believers in the many churches to put away all kinds of sins concerning the flesh and also of the mind and tongue (Eph 2;3, 4:22,31, Rom 13:12, Col 3:8,9, Jm 3:5-8).

When I see a person who professes Christ and has a problem with sin, I don't get upset nor do I judge them concerning God's grace and their salvation status.

All Christians have a problem with sin. We are not talking about this. If I say I am sinless I am a liar. Same goes for you. But we are not talking about people who struggle with sin, because this would be us all..

Maybe you do but I do not. If anything, grace swells up in me and I want to give them more grace because they need it more. If you don't understand that, then I can't help you understand.

You remind me of what Paul said. Should I sin more that grace may abound? I think you know pauls answer! It is one thing when a person admits he is in sin and trys to get help. It is a far other thing when a person continues to live a life of sin and has no desire to change his or her life. No repentance whatsoever. Which is the type of person used in the example..

You keep harping on this example (10 yrs) with all these terrible things that a man has done, but can any of these terrible things compare to what David did when committing adultery with Bathsheba, getting her pregnant, having her husband Uriah killed in battle then taking Bathsheba and multiplying wives which kings were not to do (Deut 17:17)? On top of that he didn't even know he did anything wrong until God had Nathan, the prophet, discreetly bring it to his attention (2Sam 12:1-10). Are you going to tell me that David repented and was chastised for his sin? You bet, because he was king and God put away his sin before he even repented (2Sam 12:13).

Yeah, and what did David do when he was confronted and chastened? He repented. You telling me this guy who for 10 years has continued in sin has not been chastened? or confronted by anyone in the church has repented like David did? You can not even compare the two. One had a repentant heart. One has no repentance, just continues to live as he did before he claimed to profess Christ.

But you say, this man of (10 yrs) has NO fruit to show for repentance. SO WHAT! Does that give any the right to judge this man because of his sin or lack of the 'moral fruit' that you are looking for?

The question was do I THINK HE IS SAVED. so you think I AM LOOKING for these things? Do you even read scripture? If you think I am looking for them and Not God you are in more dire need of help than I can give you. James was certainly looking for them. and when he did not see them, he said their faith was dead. or do you think James was wrong. and this man who shows no works had a true faith and can still be saved?

Would you have judged Sampson in the same manner, who was a judge of Israel, who had a problem with prostitutes (Judges 16:1) or having sex with women who he was not married to? Why did God ever choose a man like Saul (Paul), who persecuted the church and had many of them killed as a murderer, breaking the law of the 10 commandments and justifying it in the name of God's righteousness upon those that blasphemed. Was it a good choice in choosing Peter to be the first preacher at Pentecost, who was nothing but an impulsive, double-minded, unconverted wishy-washy man, who had a problem with envy and denied Christ three times and went back fishing (Jn 13:38, Mt 26:69-75)?

See your not listening. Unlike the men in the example. these men struggled with sin. But they also had a repentant heart (even though they may still have struggled) and they also did things which glorified God. Which the man in the example did not. You keep bringing up examples of men who struggle with sin. But also show repentant hearts. What about the men James spoke of, or Jude. Who act like the man in question. Do we ignore what James and Jude said?

We all have sin issues we may never overcome. What separates us is that we do have repentant hearts. We have shown a change in lifestyle by overcoming other things and trying to grow closer to God. It is obvious this man did not.

So you have murders, adulteries, fornicators, backslidders and those that denied Christ, all committing these horrendous acts after God had called them, but God still used them and never judged them. How would you have judged them? These men get to remain in their calling despite their sin and God rents the kingdom from Saul because he disobeyed the voice of God (1Sam 28:17,18). GO FIGURE! It may be that God chooses the foolish to confound the wise, the weak to confound the mighty, the despised and the base thing to render all those things that we put value upon as nothing (1Cor 1:27,28). Perhaps the man (of 10 yrs) that you describe is the one that God is going to choose and has used all these things, that you despise in this man, to call him in His own righteousness and use him for the glory of God.

Yes perhaps he will. When he repents of his licentious attitude and has true faith in Christ and is truly saved, At which point he will have the HS who will chasten him and bring him at least to a repentant heart when it comes to the sin he is committing.

What saddens me is the fact you hate LBG so much you will do anything to make anything LBG say be wrong. You will not even accept the things he says which is correct be true. because you seem to have a score to settle. And this is sad. I disagree with Catholics. But when they show truth I will praise them and agree with them. This is not what I see from you.

 

[livingbygrace]

You are obviously referring to me, so I will respond. You can not deny that many people who are not saved, but live morally, show more of the fruits of repentance then what you demand from those that profess Christ. God told Jeremiah that the heart was deceitful and desperately wicked above all things and who could know it (Jer 17:9). We also know that man looks on the outward appearance but God looks upon the heart (1Sam 16:7). We also know from the scriptures that Paul and other of the apostles repeatedly told believers in the many churches to put away all kinds of sins concerning the flesh and also of the mind and tongue (Eph 2;3, 4:22,31, Rom 13:12, Col 3:8,9, Jm 3:5-8).

When I see a person who professes Christ and has a problem with sin, I don't get upset nor do I judge them concerning God's grace and their salvation status. Maybe you do but I do not. If anything, grace swells up in me and I want to give them more grace because they need it more. If you don't understand that, then I can't help you understand.

You keep harping on this example (10 yrs) with all these terrible things that a man has done, but can any of these terrible things compare to what David did when committing adultery with Bathsheba, getting her pregnant, having her husband Uriah killed in battle then taking Bathsheba and multiplying wives which kings were not to do (Deut 17:17)? On top of that he didn't even know he did anything wrong until God had Nathan, the prophet, discreetly bring it to his attention (2Sam 12:1-10). Are you going to tell me that David repented and was chastised for his sin? You bet, because he was king and God put away his sin before he even repented (2Sam 12:13).

But you say, this man of (10 yrs) has NO fruit to show for repentance. SO WHAT! Does that give any the right to judge this man because of his sin or lack of the 'moral fruit' that you are looking for? Would you have judged Sampson in the same manner, who was a judge of Israel, who had a problem with prostitutes (Judges 16:1) or having sex with women who he was not married to? Why did God ever choose a man like Saul (Paul), who persecuted the church and had many of them killed as a murderer, breaking the law of the 10 commandments and justifying it in the name of God's righteousness upon those that blasphemed. Was it a good choice in choosing Peter to be the first preacher at Pentecost, who was nothing but an impulsive, double-minded, unconverted wishy-washy man, who had a problem with envy and denied Christ three times and went back fishing (Jn 13:38, Mt 26:69-75)?

So you have murders, adulteries, fornicators, backslidders and those that denied Christ, all committing these horrendous acts after God had called them, but God still used them and never judged them. How would you have judged them? These men get to remain in their calling despite their sin and God rents the kingdom from Saul because he disobeyed the voice of God (1Sam 28:17,18). GO FIGURE! It may be that God chooses the foolish to confound the wise, the weak to confound the mighty, the despised and the base thing to render all those things that we put value upon as nothing (1Cor 1:27,28). Perhaps the man (of 10 yrs) that you describe is the one that God is going to choose and has used all these things, that you despise in this man, to call him in His own righteousness and use him for the glory of God.

EG

You are clearly not going to get a straight answer to the question, or one that addresses the simple issue it concerns. I would give up is I was you.

It is always the same. No answer to the question posed just deviation. The examples given by Red CANNOT be compared to the case of the example given concerning the man in ten years of the sins mentioned.

But we know where Red in his heart stands

If for ten years IMMEDIATELY AFTER a conversion is claimed a person continuously/ceaselessly/constantly gets drunk, has multiple affairs, beats their wife and does not read a Bible they may well be in a saved state. Fair to say therefore that Red would have to believe such a claimed conversion could be genuine and therefore the person is and has always been in a saved state.

That from what he has written is undoubtedly what he believes

I just hope no new Christians or those searching for truth in this area take any notice of such ridiculous ideas

And don't worry about Red having scores to settle. A Christianity simply built on head theology and being driven by pride/ego will always want to settle scores for it is not one being driven by correct or pure motives

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG

You are clearly not going to get a straight answer to the question, or one that addresses the simple issue it concerns. I would give up is I was you.

It is always the same. No answer to the question posed just deviation. The examples given by Red CANNOT be compared to the case of the example given concerning the man in ten years of the sins mentioned.

But we know where Red in his heart stands

If for ten years IMMEDIATELY AFTER a conversion is claimed a person continuously/ceaselessly/constantly gets drunk, has multiple affairs, beats their wife and does not read a Bible they may well be in a saved state. Fair to say therefore that Red would have to believe such a claimed conversion could be genuine and therefore the person is and has always been in a saved state.

That from what he has written is undoubtedly what he believes

I just hope no new Christians or those searching for truth in this area take any notice of such ridiculous ideas

You are correct. I fight against the licentious free grace crowd as hard as I do the legalistic crowd. Both are on dangerous paths which I fear is not through the narrow Gate. People need to hear Gods truth.

Gods grace is free. But those who genuinely receive it by having a true faith will show a changed life. They will not become sinless, and have to grow in Christ. And learn to trust God in areas of their life to overcome sin issues. But they will not as James said be hearers only, and not doers. They may even be as the corinthians were and be babes in Christ all their lives. But they will do something that shows there faith is real. I see people all the time who confess Christ and struggle mightily in sin. But they do not say what they are doing is ok. The seek help. They get into Gods word. SHow up at church and help others. Some part of their lives show fruits of repentance. I also see God chastening them. Like he did me when I left.

The one thing I have noticed is when many people who are like the one you described are confronted with their sin. They stop coming around. You never see them anymore. This more than anything shows their true heart. Yet there are churches and people who would still accept them as they are. tell them its ok. God will still save them. You do not need to worry. This is not from God.

 

[livingbygrace]

Perhaps the man (of 10 yrs) that you describe is the one that God is going to choose and has used all these things, that you despise in this man, to call him in His own righteousness and use him for the glory of God.

EG

I hope you are also aware of the subtlety going on here

Red has in the past suggested that God may be the cause/instigator of when we fall so others will see his umlimited forgiveness and grace to us. This completely goes against what Paul wrote in Rom ch3

But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly what shall we say?
That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us?(I am using a human argument) Certainly not! if that were so, how could God judge the world. Someone might argue
If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner?
Rom 3:5-7

Notice in the example given of the ten years Red does not believe the man coiuld be condemned as a sinner for he believes he is in all probabitlity in a saved state. Whether his mentioned belief above is Reds thinking in the above paragraph I have quoted I cannot be sure but from what is written it could well be

This inevitibly leads me to wonder if Red has issues in his life that he is trying to secretly justify and that is why he holds to the beliefs he does. They are not the true beliefs of Paul or the grace of the Bible all need to be aware of that.

Whether Red gets his beliefs from his church, or they are simply his own personal beliefs I do not know, but as in his heart he believes he has been raised up as a teacher/preacher ofr the word he may believe he has been given this 'knowledge' by God to teach to others. It is the folly many have fallen into and was roundly condemned in scripture

We are called to beware of false teaching and I am utterly convinced Red has false teaching. And personally I am convinced as to why this is

 

[VW]

If you have ever read and studied or meditated on Psalm 119, you would never make the statements you make concerning the scriptures. Psalm 119 is part of the whole counsel of God you know (Acts 20:27). The scriptures are God's very own counsel to us not some secondary book compared to the Spirit. The Spirit would resist anyone that thought otherwise. If you leave that chapter out as part of God's counsel, concerning His word to you, then your understanding will be incomplete and the Holy Spirit will be limited and grieved as to what can be revealed to you. I said limited just as Israel limited God in the wilderness (Ps 78:40ff).

You can not love God more than you love His word because His word came from Him and ... In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God, and the same was in the beginning with God (Jn 1:1,2). It does not matter if the Word is spoken, written or revealed, it all comes from the mouth of God and is the same as God and so is the Son. To separate God from His very Word is a bad practice and does not represent the mind of Christ or the Spirit in any way.

I read and meditated on every psalm for the first time over 30 years ago, and have not stopped yet.

The word became flesh and dwelt among us. That is not something you can hold in your hand.

You say that David wrote this psalm, but this is not a fact. In fact, the Holy Spirit wrote this psalm.

But David wrote this, under the power of the Holy Spirit:

As the deer pants for the water brooks,
So my soul pants for Thee, O God;
My soul thirsts for God, for the living God;
When shall I come and appear before God?
My tears have been my food day and night,
While they say to me all day long, "Where is your God?"
These things I remember, and I pour out my soul within me.
For I used to go along with the throng and lead them in procession to the house of God,
With the voice of joy and thanksgiving, a multitude keeping festival.

Why are you in despair, O my soul?
And why have you become disturbed within me?
Hope in God, for I shall again praise Him.
For the help of His presence,
O my God, my soul is in despair within me;
Therefore I will remember Thee from the land of the Jordan,
And the peaks of Hermon, from Mount Mizar,
Deep calls to deep at the sound of Thy waterfalls;
All Thy breakers and Thy waves have rolled over me.
The Lord will command His lovingkindness in the daytime;
And His song will be with me in the night.

Sounds to me like someone who loves God and desires to be in His presence with all that he is.
To me, there is no higher goal, nor no higher praise towards our God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG

I hope you are also aware of the subtlety going on here

Red has in the past suggested that God may be the cause/instigator of when we fall so others will see his umlimited forgiveness and grace to us. This completely goes against what Paul wrote in Rom ch3

But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly what shall we say?
That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us?(I am using a human argument) Certainly not! if that were so, how could God judge the world. Someone might argue
If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner?
Rom 3:5-7

James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

James 1:14
But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.

These verses also destroy the argument you just spoke of.

Notice in the example given of the ten years Red does not believe the man coiuld be condemned as a sinner for he believes he is in all probabitlity in a saved state. Whether his mentioned belief above is Reds thinking in the above paragraph I have quoted I cannot be sure but from what is written it could well be

This inevitibly leads me to wonder if Red has issues in his life that he is trying to secretly justify and that is why he holds to the beliefs he does. They are not the true beliefs of Paul or the grace of the Bible all need to be aware of that.

Whether Red gets his beliefs from his church, or they are simply his own personal beliefs I do not know, but as in his heart he believes he has been raised up as a teacher/preacher ofr the word he may believe he has been given this 'knowledge' by God to teach to others. It is the folly many have fallen into and was roundly condemned in scripture

We are called to beware of false teaching and I am utterly convinced Red has false teaching. And personally I am convinced as to why this is

I am not sure if this is true. I will let him answer the accusations. But your right. There are many false teachers. And many who claim to be from God who are not. If red believes as you said in your first paragraph. He is more dangerous then I thought.

 

[livingbygrace]

James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

James 1:14
But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.

These verses also destroy the argument you just spoke of.




I am not sure if this is true. I will let him answer the accusations. But your right. There are many false teachers. And many who claim to be from God who are not. If red believes as you said in your first paragraph. He is more dangerous then I thought.

I hope he does answer and have the courage to answer HONESTLY for that is what he wrote

 

[livingbygrace]

Perhaps the man (of 10 yrs) that you describe is the one that God is going to choose and has used all these things, that you despise in this man, to call him in His own righteousness and use him for the glory of God.

Read this again

God is going TO USE ALL THE THINGS THIS MAN HAS DONE WHILE HE HAS BEEN SUPPOSEDLY SAVED(ACCORDING TO RED) to call him to his own righteousness and use him for God

It is one thing to use someonmes past BEFORE salvation and their sin at that time to bring glory to God, but this suggests God will use the constant sins this man has COMMITTED since salvation for ten years for the glory of God
HOW?

To show people that if they continuously sin like that for ten years after a claimed conversion they will not/cannot be condemned as a sinnner? For Red believes in effect they cannot be condemned for those sins for they are in all probability in a saved state. Therefore you are at the place Paul warned of in Rom ch 3 that I quoted.

Glory is being brought to God by a person constantly sinning for such a length of time while they claim to be saved

It may be put subtly, but when scrutinised it is in effect a licence to sin. How can God condemn anybody who professes a conversion experiance if their sin after conversion is to be used for God's glory

 

[Red33]

You are correct. I fight against the licentious free grace crowd as hard as I do the legalistic crowd. Both are on dangerous paths which I fear is not through the narrow Gate. People need to hear Gods truth.

Gods grace is free. But those who genuinely receive it by having a true faith will show a changed life. They will not become sinless, and have to grow in Christ. And learn to trust God in areas of their life to overcome sin issues. But they will not as James said be hearers only, and not doers. They may even be as the corinthians were and be babes in Christ all their lives. But they will do something that shows there faith is real. I see people all the time who confess Christ and struggle mightily in sin. But they do not say what they are doing is ok. The seek help. They get into Gods word. SHow up at church and help others. Some part of their lives show fruits of repentance. I also see God chastening them. Like he did me when I left.

The one thing I have noticed is when many people who are like the one you described are confronted with their sin. They stop coming around. You never see them anymore. This more than anything shows their true heart. Yet there are churches and people who would still accept them as they are. tell them its ok. God will still save them. You do not need to worry. This is not from God.

Both of you refuse to put into your understanding the kind of grace and mercy that God exercises toward sinful man that is revealed by these scriptural illustrations, that have been given to us by God through the Holy Spirit. You do not consider their godly value to your understanding because you both live in relevant righteousness based upon the moral dictates of your own conscience and not a conscience that is regulated by the nature and whole counsel of God. This is why you bring in labels such as 'free grace' and 'easy believism', because of your standards of relevant righteousness that puts restrictions of morality that violates those standards. Measure up or we judge.

You both have the same 'elder brother' spirit that is illustrated in (Luke 15:25-32)...

25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing. 26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant . 27 And he said unto him , Thy brother is come ; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound . 28 And he was angry , and would not go in : therefore came his father out , and intreated him. 29 And he answering said to his father, Lo , these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends: 30 But as soon as this thy son was come , which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf. 31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.32 It was meet that we should make merry , and be glad : for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again ; and was lost , and is found .

The elder brother, who dud his duty and lived a moral and upright life compared to his younger brother, was angry because of how the father treated his prodigal son with mercy after he had gone out and live a despicable life of sin with harlots and others forms of riotous living. Can you tell me the fruit of repentance that we see with the prodigal son who had returned home? Don't you think that the father was premature in slaying the fatted calf and giving him the robe, the shoes and the ring? Don't you think that this prodigal son needed a time of probation to prove himself before they had this great celebration of joy in the father's house?

 

[livingbygrace]

Both of you refuse to put into your understanding the kind of grace and mercy that God exercises toward sinful man that is revealed by these scriptural illustrations, that have been given to us by God through the Holy Spirit. You do not consider their godly value to your understanding because you both live in relevant righteousness based upon the moral dictates of your own conscience and not a conscience that is regulated by the nature and whole counsel of God. This is why you bring in labels such as 'free grace' and 'easy believism', because of your standards of relevant righteousness that puts restrictions of morality that violates those standards. Measure up or we judge.

You both have the same 'elder brother' spirit that is illustrated in (Luke 15:25-32)...

25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing. 26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant . 27 And he said unto him , Thy brother is come ; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound . 28 And he was angry , and would not go in : therefore came his father out , and intreated him. 29 And he answering said to his father, Lo , these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends: 30 But as soon as this thy son was come , which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf. 31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.32 It was meet that we should make merry , and be glad : for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again ; and was lost , and is found .

The elder brother, who dud his duty and lived a moral and upright life compared to his younger brother, was angry because of how the father treated his prodigal son with mercy after he had gone out and live a despicable life of sin with harlots and others forms of riotous living. Can you tell me the fruit of repentance that we see with the prodigal son who had returned home? Don't you think that the father was premature in slaying the fatted calf and giving him the robe, the shoes and the ring? Don't you think that this prodigal son needed a time of probation to prove himself before they had this great celebration of joy in the father's house?

I see no point in replying to comments such as these, you are trying to justify a nonsensical belief

 

[Red33]

EG

I hope you are also aware of the subtlety going on here

Red has in the past suggested that God may be the cause/instigator of when we fall so others will see his umlimited forgiveness and grace to us. This completely goes against what Paul wrote in Rom ch3

But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly what shall we say?
That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us?(I am using a human argument) Certainly not! if that were so, how could God judge the world. Someone might argue
If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner?
Rom 3:5-7

Notice in the example given of the ten years Red does not believe the man coiuld be condemned as a sinner for he believes he is in all probabitlity in a saved state. Whether his mentioned belief above is Reds thinking in the above paragraph I have quoted I cannot be sure but from what is written it could well be

This inevitibly leads me to wonder if Red has issues in his life that he is trying to secretly justify and that is why he holds to the beliefs he does. They are not the true beliefs of Paul or the grace of the Bible all need to be aware of that.

Whether Red gets his beliefs from his church, or they are simply his own personal beliefs I do not know, but as in his heart he believes he has been raised up as a teacher/preacher ofr the word he may believe he has been given this 'knowledge' by God to teach to others. It is the folly many have fallen into and was roundly condemned in scripture

We are called to beware of false teaching and I am utterly convinced Red has false teaching. And personally I am convinced as to why this is

When a man is deluded he is going to lie and exaggerate what others say to prove an empty point. That's what the human heart does when it is filled with its own ways and vanity. LBG has a problem with grasping the immensity of God's great mercies and the goodness of God toward sinners. Here are some of the verses that are being referred to...

Rom 8:28
2Cor 4:15
2Cor 5:18

These verses have been misapplied in his own mind and has attributed that understanding to me. It happens all the time because the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked. This does not ever surprise me and it does nothing to edify the body of Christ or magnify Christ in the believer. Just another stooge acting out of his own insecurity and dissimulation through his vain imaginations.

LBG, just remember it is always the goodness of God through longsuffering and forbearance that leads men to repentance, not your foolish and unwise understanding based on relevant righteousness (Rom 4:2).

PS - You ought to change your 'nic' to LBRR.