Jesus Christ was God manifest in the Flesh

Devolution · Apr 19, 2011

If you can not see what God manifested in the flesh means, then it is not given to you to see. It does not mean that God Himself came down in the form of Jesus. But instead means that God sent His Word down which dwelt within Jesus. Gods Word then, is still a mystery to you. What is Gods Word? People will answer it is Jesus, and there they stay. But there is more to this than that. Look at just one example below. Does this then, using the "God was manifested in the flesh" argument, does this not then mean that we are all God also? Of course not, thats silly, then why misrepresent that ONE verse compared to the many others using EXACTLY the same wording? I will tell you why, God has not yet revealed it to them.

1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

So again, are WE all God now also? It is after all using that same wording? "But the MANIFESTATION of the SPIRIT is GIVEN to EVERY MAN.... So that Spirit is given to men, and the Spirit come from whom?

So what you need discern is this, What exactly is being manifested and from where does it come? Both answers will then explain the famous "God was manifest in the flesh" statement, and you will be one step closer to the truth of the Word and turn away from believing that Jesus was His Father come down. It is in no way heretical, but instead a sign of a more mature Spirit granted understanding from on high.

Luke 10:22
All things are delivered to Me of My Father, and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father, and who the Father is, but the Son, AND HE TO WHOM THE SON WILL REVEAL HIM.

This is the cold hard truth, if you believe Jesus is God Himself come down, then Luke 10:22 has not yet happened to you, and i suggest you examine yourselves to rectify this blockage from God.

livingbygrace · Apr 19, 2011

Zone

Jesus was baptised too. And as he was praying Heaven opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove

Luke 3:22

So why if Christ was God Himself on earth from Birth did the Hol.y Spiorit descend on him in bodily form at his Baptism?

When was Christ created?

I believe the Father(the one true God) existed before all else including the son. So, can you tell me if that is true EXACTLY when Christ came into being?
Can you give me the date?

I believe that in time as WE KNOW IT Christ has always existed but to my finite mind anyway I cannot go beyond that. I have a simple faith based on simple scripture, I do not profess to be a scholar or theologian

Before time as we know it I believe it was decided that Christ would be the lamb who canme to earth to die for our sins

What manner of entity is Christ now?

The Bible says the angels are spirit messengers, God is Spirit, so what entity do you believe Christ would be in essence?
He is above the angels
I would say Christ is also spirit, but man has seen him revealed in human form
If you have understanding beyind this please explain to me, I am always willing to learn

Now, I have a belief in the simple words of scripture. If anyone can fully without evasion answer all the questions I put to them on this or any other subject I would then have to accept their view and not mine was correct, if they could answer ALL the scriptures I put to them, I would have no choice. But so far I have never met anyone on either side of this argument who can answer all the scriptures put to them. So I will now give you an opportunity to and convince me of my error in this subject

Christ plainly said that a belief that he was the son of God was what was required for a person to have eternal life. He did not go beyond that. Do you agree with the condition Christ set as to how a person must see him to have eternal life.
The answer is yes or no.

Can you give me one scripture where Christ CLEARLY commanded anyone to believe he was the one true God Himself?

Can you givew me one scripture where it is CLEARLY stated a person must believe Christ is Goid Himself to have eternal life?

If you cannot(I do not mean one where you infer that is what is meant) and you do not accept that a simple belief that Christ is the son of God only is enough for a person to have eternal life, you must therefore believe that a belief upon which eternal life hinges is not clearly writtewn in the Bible
Clould you explain please why something so neccessary for a person to believe to have eternal life swould not clearly be written in the Bible

Then the end will come when he (Christ) hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destrpoyed all domkinion, authority and power.
For he must REIGN UNTIL until he has put all his enemies under his feet
The last enemy to be destroyed is deathj
For He has put everything under his feet
Now when it says thatr everything has been put under him IT IS CLEAR THAT THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE GOD HIMSELF WHO PUT EVERYTHING UNDER CHRIST
When he has done this, then the son himself will beciome SUBJECT to him who put everything under him so that God will be all in all
1 Cor 15:14-28

Could you explain these verses and what they are saying, especially the words in capitals?

Yet for us there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER FROM WHOM ALL THINGS CAME and FOR WHOM we live, and ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST THROUGH WHOM all things came and THROUGH WHOM we live
1 Cor 8:6

That verse clearly states we have one God, the Father and one Lord who is Christ.

John said

No-one has seen God, yet John lived wioth Christ on earth for three years.

Christ said

No-one has seen the Father except the one who is from God, only he has seen the Father
John 6:46

I think it is safe to assume John and Christ are refering to the same person

So, Paul, John and Christ believe the Father is the one true God and John believes no-one has seen God, and Christ statyes no-one has seen the Father

What does the Father say?

But about the son He(the Father) says

Your throne O God will last forever and ever
And righteousness will be a sceptre of your kingdom
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness
Therefore GOD, YOUR GOD has set you above your companions and annointed you with the oil of joy
Heb 1:8&9

A couple of questions here

How can the one true God(if that is who Christ is) have to refer to someone as 'My God'?
How can God Himself have a God that he would have to refer to as such?

Now in those verses it says that God set the son above his companions, so if Christ is God Himself what position did he hold BEFORE HE WAS SET ABOVE HIS COMPANIONS?
Was God Himself then just equal to his companions? Do you believe such a thing is possible?

Regarding Philipians 2:9
Therefore God exalted him(Christ~) to the highest place and gave him a name which is above every name

Did God exalt himself to the highest place and give himself a name that is above every name?

The Lord said tpo my Lord
Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet
Psalm 110:1

So did God tell himself to sit att his right hand yuntil he had put his enemies under his own feet?

In my vision at night I looked and there before me was one like a son of man coming with the clouds of Heaven
He approached the ancient of days and was led into his prescence
He was given authority, glory and sovereign power, all peoples,, nations and men of every language worshipped him
His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed
Daniel 7:13&14

Do you accept that the one like the son of man is Christ?
And do you accept the ancient of days is God? Or the Father?

If so Christ was GIVEN authority, glory and soveriegn power. So if he was given these things what was Christ's position before this?
If Christ has always been God Himself. How could God Himself have sovereign power, authority and glory given to him. Who could bestow such things on God Himself?

Christ said

The Father is greater than I John 14:28

The Father is greater than all John 17:3

That they may know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent
John 17:3

I will leave it there for now and give you a chance to respond to my questions

If you can FULLY without evasion answer them and more questions fully that I will then put to you I guess I will have no choicew but to accept you are right and I am wrong.
But if you cannot fully answer my questions, then you should have the good grace to accept that as neither of jus could answer all scripture put to us on this subject we should accept simply that we see this differently but we can both believe scripture backs up our belief

For I repeat. I freely admit I cannot answer every wuestion put to me on this subject, I am certainly no theologian or scholar and have a simple faith, but if you cannot answer all the scriptures put to you you should not demand I believe as you do.

Red33 · Apr 19, 2011

Some passages of scripture to think about

Exodus 33:17-23 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken : for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name. 18 And he said , I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. 19 And he said , I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious , and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy . 20 And he said , Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live . 21 And the LORD said , Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: 22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by , that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by : 23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen .

Ex 33:9-11 And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended , and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses. 10 And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped , every man in his tent door. 11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.

Num 14:14 And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou LORD art among this people, that thou LORD art seen face to face, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night.

Deut 5:1-4 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear , O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep , and do them. 2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day. 4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,

Deut 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face.

Ps 80:3,7,19
3 Turn us again , O God, and cause thy face to shine ; and we shall be saved.
7 Turn us again , O God of hosts, and cause thy face to shine ; and we shall be saved.
19 Turn us again , O LORD God of hosts, cause thy face to shine ; and we shall be saved.

Mt 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

2Cor 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness , hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Is 6:1-10 1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up , and his train filled the temple. 2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly . 3 And one cried unto another, and said , Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. 4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried , and the house was filled with smoke. 5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone ; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. 6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: 7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said , Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away , and thy sin purged . 8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying , Whom shall I send , and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9 And he said , Go , and tell this people, Hear ye indeed , but understand not; and see ye indeed , but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat , and make their ears heavy , and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert , and be healed .

Num 22:31-35 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face. 32 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me: 33 And the ass saw me, and turned from me these three times: unless she had turned from me, surely now also I had slain thee, and saved her alive . 34 And Balaam said unto the angel of the LORD, I have sinned ; for I knew not that thou stoodest in the way against me: now therefore, if it displease thee , I will get me back again . 35 And the angel of the LORD said unto Balaam, Go with the men: but only the word that I shall speak unto thee, that thou shalt speak . So Balaam went with the princes of Balak.

Judges 13:6-21 6 Then the woman came and told her husband, saying , A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible : but I asked him not whence he was, neither told he me his name: 7 But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink , neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death. 8 Then Manoah intreated the LORD, and said , O my Lord, let the man of God which thou didst send come again unto us, and teach us what we shall do unto the child that shall be born . 9 And God hearkened to the voice of Manoah; and the angel of God came again unto the woman as she sat in the field: but Manoah her husband was not with her. 10 And the woman made haste , and ran , and shewed her husband, and said unto him, Behold, the man hath appeared unto me, that came unto me the other day. 11 And Manoah arose , and went after his wife, and came to the man, and said unto him, Art thou the man that spakest unto the woman? And he said , I am. 12 And Manoah said , Now let thy words come to pass . How shall we order the child, and how shall we do unto him? 13 And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah, Of all that I said unto the woman let her beware . 14 She may not eat of any thing that cometh of the vine, neither let her drink wine or strong drink, nor eat any unclean thing: all that I commanded her let her observe . 15 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee. 16 And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the LORD. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the LORD. 17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour ? 18 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret ? 19 So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto the LORD: and the angel did wondrously ; and Manoah and his wife looked on . 20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground. 21 But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD. 22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die , because we have seen God.

Deut 4:12-19 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. 13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform , even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. 14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it. 15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: 16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, 17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, 18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth: 19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

1Kgs 22:17-23 And he said , I saw all Israel scattered upon the hills, as sheep that have not a shepherd : and the LORD said , These have no master: let them return every man to his house in peace. 18 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would prophesy no good concerning me, but evil? 19 And he said , Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. 20 And the LORD said , Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead ? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. 21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said , I will persuade him. 22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said , I will go forth , and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said , Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth , and do so. 23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

1Chron 21:16,17 And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders of Israel, who were clothed in sackcloth, fell upon their faces. 17 And David said unto God, Is it not I that commanded the people to be numbered ? even I it is that have sinned and done evil indeed ; but as for these sheep, what have they done ? let thine hand, I pray thee, O LORD my God, be on me, and on my father's house; but not on thy people, that they should be plagued.

Ez 1:24-28 And when they went , I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood , they let down their wings. 25 And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood , and had let down their wings. 26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. 27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about. 28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake .

Amos 9:1 I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said , Smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake : and cut them in the head, all of them; and I will slay the last of them with the sword: he that fleeth of them shall not flee away , and he that escapeth of them shall not be delivered

John 12:37-50 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled , which he spake , Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed ? 39 Therefore they could not believe , because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted , and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. 42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: 43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

44 Jesus cried and said , He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.

45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

* Jn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken , the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say , and what I should speak . 50And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak .

PneumaPsucheSoma · Apr 19, 2011

Devolution said:

Hi, Devo-

When comparing verses and words, it would help greatly to go to the Greek for such comparisons and avoid errors of perception and presumption. God inspired the written record of His Word in a specific language for a specific reason.

In 1Tim. 3:16, "God (Theos G2316an-nn) was*manifest (phaneroo G5319ainp) in (en G1722pre) the flesh (sarx G4561an-nn)..." is NOT the same as 1Cor. 12:7, "But the manifestation (phanerosis G5321nn) of the Spirit (pneuma G4151nn) is*given (didomi G1325pimp) to every*man (hekastos G1538an-ajn)...".

Many doctrinal views are laced with these misconceptions based on translational misunderstandings. And most can't and won't give them up, even when clarification is presented.

Trinis turn the Logos into a separate eternally pre-existent "person" as they do the Holy Spirit. Leaving the Logos (Word) as "substance-less" without the Rhema Divine Content is just as egregious an error. The substance of God was manifest in the flesh.

But nobody seems to have any true understanding of the Logos.

journey41 · Apr 19, 2011

[

[/QUOTE]Hi PPS. Devolutions did a pretty good job explaining how God was manifested in the flesh. Straight forward in English.

The Word of God is for the simple and not the learned. The Word is straight forward to everyman in his own language. The scriptures were originally translated for us perfectly through Gods will. We must not complicate things. This is adding to the Word wouldn't you say? Or discecting the word and ripping it apart. The truth is so simple and not a play on words. We cant learn it from a Greek text book.

You would have to be a theologian to understand all that nonsense and if they need the logos to understand scripture then they are barking up the wrong tree and will never get the truth. This is not how the holy spirit works.

livingbygrace · Apr 19, 2011

journey41 said:

As for theologians and scholars

I will destroy the wisdom of the wise
The intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate
Where is the wise man?
Where is the scholar?
Where is the philosopher of this age?
Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him
God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe

1 Cor 1:19-21

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words

1 Cor 2:13

Red33 · Apr 19, 2011

journey41 said:

Do you have a problem with those passages of scripture that speak of certain things pertaining God being with us? Devolution did a terrible job and any Spirit-filled believer that understands the gospel and the simplicity of the doctrine of Christ would discern that in a second. His understanding of (Lk 10:22) is convoluted. There are kids in my church that know that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh who came here to shed His blood and die for the sins of the world. And you can't shake them of that and they worship the Lord Jesus Christ as Almighty God, not a god but the one and only true God. They are not confused because they have that simple truth reigning in their heart through the Holy Spirit. Imagine having the Lord Jesus Christ and Savior reigning and living in our heart, as God who created all things, having all power, being everywhere present and having all knowledge. It is no wonder that this same Jesus told Jeremiah in (Jer 32:27), 'Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh, is there anything too hard for me'?

journey41 · Apr 19, 2011

Red33 said:

Come on Red. Read it again. Is God a liar? No one can see his face and live. He meant it when he said it.

So how did moses see God?

But God said no-one can see his face and live? So if Moses SPOKE to God face to face what does this mean? Remember God doesn't lie. He is not a hypocrite.

And they will tell it.....

The Lord TALKED with you face to face

Whom the lord KNEW face to face

Cause thy face to SHINE. Not let it be dark apon us.

His face did shine AS THE SUN. He was bright Red. The spirit of God was upon him. They saw Jesus in Spirit Form. Not the Father.

The face of Jesus could be viewed by men. The glory of God was in him.

So if Jesus was God, then why was he always proclaiming his Father? So the way you understand it should say;
"He that believes me, believes on me, and him that sent me is me"

This pretty much sums up everything against what you are saying. And this is only 1 verse.

You have provided so much scripture in an effort to prove that Christ is God but have misunderstood the actual scriptures you are quoting. I know you will hate me for speaking up but I will suffer it. I pray your eyes will be opened & that you will be humbled enough to one day admit your error and realise that this is not a competition of pride, but for the love of the truth. Please do not be bitter in your heart. I know you love Christ.

PneumaPsucheSoma · Apr 19, 2011

journey41 said:

[/QUOTE]

Yes, I'm sure you think so.

Really? I thought the Word was for all mankind. Evidently, God only gave His Word for the illiterate, etc.

The Word is straight forward to everyman in his own language.

Click to expand...

Okay. Then you'll affirm John 1:1, "...and the Word was God." in simple English of your own language. You'll try to have it both ways, though.

The scriptures were originally translated for us perfectly through Gods will.

Click to expand...

Which has little to do with erroneous perceptions turned into doctrines.

We must not complicate things. This is adding to the Word wouldn't you say?

Click to expand...

Yes, I think you complicate things and add to the Word.

Or discecting the word and ripping it apart.

Click to expand...

You don't seem to have a problem when you're the one "disecting and ripping apart". Like most, you have monumental double standards and think you are the sole source of truth for the world.

The truth is so simple and not a play on words. We cant learn it from a Greek text book.

Click to expand...

Yes, the truth is simple. And it's the height of arrogance and ignorance to dismiss the Greek.

You demean the truth of God as being only for imbeciles who don't have stewardship to study.

It's so good for the rest of the world that you have the only truth and can instruct everyone exactly how the Holy Spirit works.

I've left you guys alone, and only corrected Devo's ignorant comparison above.

I've read your posts. I couldn't care less what you and your little self-assured cult say or believe.

"And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgement;" - Phi. 1:9

Love needs to abound yet more and more for you and your "crew".

Red33 · Apr 19, 2011

journey41 said:

If you were in my class and you explained those passages as you have, I could not in good conscience give you a passing grade. I would have to let you go back and really study them and let you take the test all over again. I would give you plenty of grace and plenty of time to study so that you could show yourself approved (or at least get a passing grade). Don't be sensative, LOL.

zone · Apr 19, 2011

livingbygrace said:

in bodily form?
what bodily form would that be?

do you really believe Jesus HAD to be baptised for any other reason than to fulfill all righteousness according to the Scriptures? this was the transition from the Old to the New. Jesus was signalling that He was bringing all things together in Himself: Priest, King, Lamb, Lord. He was about to be sacrificed, LBG: please look into the levitical system.

The Spirit was a SIGN for john the baptist. we've been through this before.

john was of the priest line, yet he was outside the functioning levitical system: he was calling the jews AWAY from it.

we had a priest and OT prophet (THE LAST) who as the forerunner for THE NEW, baptised the Anointed One, per Daniel 9.

but THIS anointing was of God (the Spirit), NOT human priests.

John 1
Behold, the Lamb of God
29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.’ 31 I myself did not know him, but for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel.” 32 And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. 33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.”

is this when you have Jesus receiving demi-deity?
exactly how did it work, LBG?

this event was the signal that the 70th week had begun.

Daniel 9
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

livingbygrace said:

so you have Jesus being a created entity.
how then, as you admit, were ALL things created through (by) Him?

livingbygrace said:

so, you believe Christ is a created entity, but above the angels.
and that He received (deity?) the Holy Spirit at His baptism?

so, as He came as a man, but ascended into heaven, what sort of being is He? is He still a man?
will we be just like Him?

livingbygrace said:

since you are not able to define what manner of "son" (entity) of God He is, i would have to say NO based on YOUR UNDERSTANDING of Who The Son of God is, if i only have 2 choices.

Christ makes it CLEAR He is DEITY and One with the Father (i'm keeping it simple LBG).

livingbygrace said:

you've been given this over and over.

i'll give you ONE. if you deconstruct it, you do so on your own.

John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.

I exist, I am

Original Word: εἰμί
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: eimi
Phonetic Spelling: (i-mee')
Short Definition: I am, exist
Definition: I am, exist.

1510 eimí (the basic Greek verb which expresses being, i.e. "to be") – am, is. 1510 (eimí), and its counterparts, (properly) convey "straight-forward" being (existence, i.e. without explicit limits).

1510 /eimí ("is, am") – in the present tense, indicative mood – can be time-inclusive ("omnitemporal," like the Hebrew imperfect tense). Only the context indicates whether the present tense also has "timeless" implications.

For example, 1510 (eimí) is aptly used in Christ's great "I am" (ego eimi . . . ) that also include His eternality (self-existent life) as our life, bread, light," etc. See Jn 7:34, 8:58, etc.

Example: Jn 14:6: "I am (1510 /eimí) the way, the truth and the life." Here 1510 (eimí) naturally accords with the fact Christ is eternal – maning "I am (was, will be)." The "I am formula (Gk egō eimi)" harks back to God's only name, "Yahweh" (OT/3068, "the lord") – meaning "He who always was, is, and will be."

Compare Jn 8:58 with Ex 3:14. See also Rev 4:8 and 2962 /kýrios ("Lord").

this is the COVENANT NAME, LBG.
this is what enraged the Pharisees.

New International Version (©1984)
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am [the one I claim to be], you will indeed die in your sins."

New Living Translation (©2007)
That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I Am who I claim to be, you will die in your sins."

English Standard Version (©2001)
I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

International Standard Version (©2008)
That is why I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins."

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
For this reason I told you that you'll die because of your sins. If you don't believe that I am the one, you'll die because of your sins."

King James Bible
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

American King James Version
I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.

American Standard Version
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for except ye believe that I am he , ye shall die in your sins.

Bible in Basic English
For this reason I said to you that death will overtake you in your sins: for if you have not faith that I am he, death will come to you while you are in your sins.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Therefore I said to you, that you shall die in your sins. For if you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sin.
Darby Bible Translation
I said therefore to you, that ye shall die in your sins; for unless ye shall believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

English Revised Version
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for except ye believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Webster's Bible Translation
I said therefore to you, that ye will die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye will die in your sins.

Weymouth New Testament
That is why I told you that you will die in your sins; for, unless you believe that I am He, that is what will happen."

World English Bible
I said therefore to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am he, you will die in your sins."
Young's Literal Translation
I said, therefore, to you, that ye shall die in your sins, for if ye may not believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.'

livingbygrace said:

John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.

livingbygrace said:

Matthew 11:27
All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

~ i'll respond the rest later, to the best of my ability, ok?

zone.

AnandaHya · Apr 19, 2011

onlyme said:

I don't want to get on any debate or anything, but I just felt I should add a couple scriptures.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (Isn't that speaking of Jesus)

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.(the Word, that is Jesus correct)

I am no bible scholar, please forgive me, but this I do know, Jesus is my Lord and Savior and without Him I would be lost and have no hope at all.

I like his words and just wanted to say YAAAHHH!!!

"Jesus is my Lord and Savior and without Him I would be lost and have no hope at all.

"

AnandaHya · Apr 19, 2011

livingbygrace said:

If you do not think that Jesus Christ is God then logically you should NOT worship Him because , you are to ONLY worship GOD and if you do not worship and call upon the name of JESUS as YOUR LORD AND SAVIOR then you might as well be Muslim, Vedanta Hindu, or agnostic Buddhist and just worship "God"

Its a dangerous idea, not believing that Jesus IS GOD. my red flag just popped up "warning warning, something's not right"

I might not know all the extra doctrines or theologies, but that is pretty basic logic and Muslims use it to why Christains are not really God's children because they deny Jesus divinity, therefore if you do not think Jesus IS GOD then you are worshipping a man and that's considered idolatry.

Might have misread you and haven't read all the comments but just wanted to point it out.... though someone might have already done it...

livingbygrace · Apr 19, 2011

zone said:

in bodily form?
what bodily form would that be?

do you really believe Jesus HAD to be baptised for any other reason than to fulfill all righteousness according to the Scriptures? this was the transition from the Old to the New. Jesus was signalling that He was bringing all things together in Himself: Priest, King, Lamb, Lord. He was about to be sacrificed, LBG: please look into the levitical system.

I am not discussing the Baptism itself, but the Holy Spirit descending on Christ
The Spirit was a SIGN for john the baptist. we've been through this before.

See answer below

john was of the priest line, yet he was outside the functioning levitical system: he was calling the jews AWAY from it.

we had a priest and OT prophet (THE LAST) who as the forerunner for THE NEW, baptised the Anointed One, per Daniel 9.

but THIS anointing was of God (the Spirit), NOT human priests.

John 1
Behold, the Lamb of God
29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.’ 31 I myself did not know him, but for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel.” 32 And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. 33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.”

This does not say that Jesus was annointed with the Holy Spirit so John would know who he was. This says that Jesus WAS annointed with the Spirit, it was revealed to John that the spirit descended on Christ and therefore he accepted he was the Lamb of God. This in no way changes what scripture plainly says. The Spirit came on Christ in bodily shape or form depending on which translation you read. It was revealed to John this happened.

You have that wrong Zone
And after Jesus returned from the wilderness after being tempted he lived in THE POWER of the Spirit

is this when you have Jesus receiving demi-deity?
exactly how did it work, LBG?
this event was the signal that the 70th week had begun.

Daniel 9
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

so you have Jesus being a created entity.
how then, as you admit, were ALL things created through (by) Him?

The universe was created THROUGH Christ but I have alrerady clearly stated as we know time Christ has always existed
But I certainly believe the Father existed first, yes

so, you believe Christ is a created entity, but above the angels.
and that He received (deity?) the Holy Spirit at His baptism?

I clearly believe the Father existed before the son
I believe we worship the diety of the Father seen in the Son
When the spirit came upon Christ in Bodily form at his Baptism as scripture CLEARLY says he was empowered for his ministry ahead
Christ himself acknowledged the miracles performed were by the power of the Holy Spirit

so, as He came as a man, but ascended into heaven, what sort of being is He? is He still a man?
will we be just like Him?
Christ has been refered to many times in scripture as 'The angel of the Lord', but the fulness of the Godhead bodily dwells in Christ. He is the son of God.
The angels according to scripture are spirit messengers, the Father is spirit, what entity do you suppose is Christ? Simply a man?

since you are not able to define what manner of "son" (entity) of God He is, i would have to say NO based on YOUR UNDERSTANDING of Who The Son of God is, if i only have 2 choices.

I can understand why you do not wish to answer the question. Scripturally you cannot produce a verse of scripture that says
We must believe Christ is God Himself to have eternal life
Therefore your belief of what is neccessary to have eternal life is not written in the Bible

Christ makes it CLEAR He is DEITY and One with the Father (i'm keeping it simple LBG).
Are you refering to John 10:30 here?
I have given them the glory you gave me, that they(the believers) may be one AS we are one

So how can you and I be oner Zone? Can you be me or I you? No.
TYhe only way we could be one is of one heart and one mind in the spirit

That they may be one AS we are one

you've been given this over and over.

i'll give you ONE. if you deconstruct it, you do so on your own.

John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.

I exist, I am

Original Word: εἰμί
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: eimi
Phonetic Spelling: (i-mee')
Short Definition: I am, exist
Definition: I am, exist.

1510 eimí (the basic Greek verb which expresses being, i.e. "to be") – am, is. 1510 (eimí), and its counterparts, (properly) convey "straight-forward" being (existence, i.e. without explicit limits).

1510 /eimí ("is, am") – in the present tense, indicative mood – can be time-inclusive ("omnitemporal," like the Hebrew imperfect tense). Only the context indicates whether the present tense also has "timeless" implications.

For example, 1510 (eimí) is aptly used in Christ's great "I am" (ego eimi . . . ) that also include His eternality (self-existent life) as our life, bread, light," etc. See Jn 7:34, 8:58, etc.

Example: Jn 14:6: "I am (1510 /eimí) the way, the truth and the life." Here 1510 (eimí) naturally accords with the fact Christ is eternal – maning "I am (was, will be)." The "I am formula (Gk egō eimi)" harks back to God's only name, "Yahweh" (OT/3068, "the lord") – meaning "He who always was, is, and will be."

Compare Jn 8:58 with Ex 3:14. See also Rev 4:8 and 2962 /kýrios ("Lord").

this is the COVENANT NAME, LBG.
this is what enraged the Pharisees.

Glad you mentioned Ex 3:14

Who appeared to Moses in the burning bush?

There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush
Ex 3:2

He was sent to be their ruler by God Himself THROUGH the angel who appeared tro him in the bush
John 19:7
So do you believe Christ is the angel of the Lord?

So who when Jesus had completed his public ministry did the Pharisees believe Christ had claimed to be?

The Jews insisted. We have a law and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be THE SON OF GOD
John 19:7

But if you are REALLY honest Zone you do believe a person must believe Christ is God Himself to have eternal life. And if you are honest that is not what Chrtist commanded anyone to believe in order to have eternal life. The condition always was to believe he was the son of God as you know

So in effect however you try and use scripture the truth is you believe that something on which eternal life hinges is not written in the Bible.
You can use the I AM quotes all you wish but are yoiu saying God Himself is the angel of the Lord?
Or that we have a Bible that the plainest of statements by Christ cannpot be relied on as how a person must view him to have eternal life

Or the way you see it. One statement refering to Christ as I Am means that unless a person believes Christ is God Himself they can have no eternal life. Whereas every plain statement Christ made on this issue stated clearly a person has to believe he is the son of God, not God Himself

New International Version (©1984)
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am [the one I claim to be], you will indeed die in your sins."

New Living Translation (©2007)
That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I Am who I claim to be, you will die in your sins."

English Standard Version (©2001)
I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

International Standard Version (©2008)
That is why I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins."

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
For this reason I told you that you'll die because of your sins. If you don't believe that I am the one, you'll die because of your sins."

King James Bible
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

American King James Version
I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.

American Standard Version
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for except ye believe that I am he , ye shall die in your sins.

Bible in Basic English
For this reason I said to you that death will overtake you in your sins: for if you have not faith that I am he, death will come to you while you are in your sins.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Therefore I said to you, that you shall die in your sins. For if you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sin.
Darby Bible Translation
I said therefore to you, that ye shall die in your sins; for unless ye shall believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

English Revised Version
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for except ye believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Webster's Bible Translation
I said therefore to you, that ye will die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye will die in your sins.

Weymouth New Testament
That is why I told you that you will die in your sins; for, unless you believe that I am He, that is what will happen."

World English Bible
I said therefore to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am he, you will die in your sins."
Young's Literal Translation
I said, therefore, to you, that ye shall die in your sins, for if ye may not believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.'

John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.

Answer above
Matthew 11:27
All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

What does this prove?
~ i'll respond the rest later, to the best of my ability, ok?

zone.

Answers above

livingbygrace · Apr 19, 2011

AnandaHya said:

If you do not think that Jesus Christ is God then logically you should NOT worship Him because , you are to ONLY worship GOD and if you do not worship and call upon the name of JESUS as YOUR LORD AND SAVIOR then you might as well be Muslim, Vedanta Hindu, or agnostic Buddhist and just worship "God"

When it says that everything has been put under him IT IS CLEAR THAT THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE GOD HIMSELF who put everything under Christ
1 Cor 15:27

Who should Paul worship then?

Should we consider Paul a Muslim, Hindu etc?

phil36 · Apr 19, 2011

livingbygrace said:

AnandaHya said:

If you do not think that Jesus Christ is God then logically you should NOT worship Him because , you are to ONLY worship GOD and if you do not worship and call upon the name of JESUS as YOUR LORD AND SAVIOR then you might as well be Muslim, Vedanta Hindu, or agnostic Buddhist and just worship "God"

When it says that everything has been put under him IT IS CLEAR THAT THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE GOD HIMSELF who put everything under Christ
1 Cor 15:27

Who should Paul worship then?

Should we consider Paul a Muslim, Hindu etc?

Thats because He is God.

Red33 · Apr 19, 2011

AnandaHya said:

You have to admit and concede in humility that AnandaHya makes some very sound points that are plain and pure and come right from the heart. How can anyone who professes Christ be critical of any believer and child of God that knows in their heart that Jesus Christ is God and has the witness of the scriptures and the Holy Spirit within.

How can any believer, who has the Spirit, even consider anything outside the truth that Jesus Christ is God when in the flesh here on the earth and now in heaven at the right hand of God after ascending. They that truely worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (Jn 6:63).

PneumaPsucheSoma · Apr 19, 2011

phil36 said:

Exactly. Not 1/3 of God.

phil36 · Apr 19, 2011

PneumaPsucheSoma said:

what is a 1/3 of God, there is no such thing?? is that a new religion or something?

God is ONE, yet three co equal, co eternal persons.

livingbygrace · Apr 19, 2011

Red33 said:

Red

If you could answer points put to you concerning this subject your comments would carry weight, but as you never do I'm afraid they don't

BTW

I have told no-one they are possessed by the spirit of antichrist, condemned, can have no eternal life or that they are a heretic

How can any believer say that to another believer for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth

How can anyone be critical of a believer for standing on the plain words of Christ?

Jesus Christ was God manifest in the Flesh

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